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Why can't natural remission be a miracle?
Except that when talking about cancers specifically it's known that they sometimes do go into spontaneous remission. How would one tell the difference between natural remission and a miracle?
I would imagine by elucidating what causes "natural" remission.
Doing so might also open up arguments based upon probability.
In what I've read, the causes are typically attributed to immune system response possibly in combination with secondary infections.
In what way?
I would imagine there are many different factors which could cause spontaneous remission/regression. Not all of them will be miraculous.
Well we see cancer remission because x occurred. If x is something relatively normal, then there's no particular evidence of intervention. If x is absurdly improbable, or even outright impossible, but there is evidence that it occurred anyway, there may be an argument there.
The person I was discussing with claimed that actual scientists studied the phenomenon and got unusual results. Even if it isn't a paper published in a journal like Nature, I want some evidence that these scientists aren't complete fiction in and of themselves.Sorry to butt in, but this sounds like an interesting discussion too.
I think you have too much faith in systems. I used to think the same way though, that if any real miracles had been reported or investigated, that scientists would flock to it, and it would be hailed worldwide, etc. etc.
Hence why I suggested utilizing people with dementia as a test group. Far as I am aware, they don't usually go into remission, and people with Alzheimer's specifically never do.Unfortunately, that's not the case. There's a lot that we don't know, so most cases that seem miraculous are just thrown on a pile with all the other papers published about spontaneous remission/regression.
So would I, I'd love to have some actual sources that aren't anecdotal.Medical documentation might actually exist online. With a little more info from truefiction1, I'd be willing to look around.
Currently being investigated, from the looks of it. It might be a while before people can be sure on that.I feel like this is applying skepticism very unevenly. Even assuming myrrh had some kind of anti-cancer properties, (which I can definitely believe) what is the mechanism of action?
That's why you need a proper experiment for the stuff, with control groups and whatnot. If the myrrh oil works, there will be significantly more people that experience remission in the experimental group than in the control group that gets anointed with tap water. One of the biggest problems with purported healing miracles is that people don't keep record of the people that are exposed and do not have access to medical records. As a result, 10,000 people could claim to have been healed, but the 150,000 that experienced the same thing and remained sick never were accounted for.Often times things have anti-cancer properties in vitro, but not in vivo, with no way of actually getting the solution into contact with the cancer itself. If anyone in any other context suggested that anointing someone with myrrh could have 'cured cancer' they'd be instantly written off as a quack.
No duh, I never claimed it was a positive trait in the slightest. Anorexic people generally aren't gluttonous, but you'd never say that the other end of the extreme was good. If any of the seven sins negatively impact me on a regular basis, they'd have to be wrath and sloth, not pride. Heck, I can even put my sinful tendencies in descending order: wrath, sloth, gluttony, greed, envy, lust, and pride. I view it as possible to be at the other end of these extremes as well and for that to cause significant problems as well. For example, not feeling anger at things you should be mad about can allow injustice to continue.I think you're misunderstanding pride. But it's a very common misunderstanding. Hating yourself, thinking that nothing you do is good enough isn't a result of humility. It comes from feeling a lack of self-worth.
-_- I want you to consider what that implies about me. Also, what the heck are you talking about? Self esteem stems from how you perceive yourself, not necessarily how you actually are. Tons of people with wonderful qualities lack self esteem, while plenty of people that don't have it in excess. If that's what you intended to say, you chose poor words for it.I find often that many people draw self-esteem from their intelligence. They feel valuable for being a certain kind of person (an intelligent person), and it influences a lot of people's decisions.
Aging is not kind to those that only value their looks.An externally oriented source of self-worth, one that tends to be tested and measured by external sources like intelligence tests, or achievements, beauty, strength, etc. is in some sense going to be constantly under threat. (Perhaps I'm not using terminology correctly, but I think you can see what I'm saying)
I don't know anyone that has a high self esteem purely because they view themselves as human, and nothing else.A more secure source of self-worth comes from your merely being human.
I would view intelligence as a valuable trait in any animal I have to interact with. Heck, you could have a conversation via sign language with a gorilla if you wanted to. Humans have even bred certain working dogs to be more intelligent because it benefited their performance in the job we wanted them to do. I'd trustConsider this.
All of those external sources of self-worth like beauty, or intelligence are valuable only because humans are valuable. If humans are worthless, none of those things matter anyway.
You're a human.
Therefore you're valuable, and you're worthy of love.
-_- nah, that's just an attitude some atheists personally have. The "holier than thou" sentiment some theists have isn't representative of all theists, so why act as if all atheists or even atheists in general share a particular attitude? Heck, most atheists never even bring up the fact that they are atheists.Back to Atheism,
In many cases (but certainly not all) Atheism can play a part in this as culturally Atheism tends to emphasize a “more rational than thou” sentiment.
As much as watching people narrowly avoid earning Darwin awards is amusing to me, that doesn't make me feel that I am smarter. -_- it just makes me view humanity as a whole to be dumber.(This of course doesn't mean Atheism is wrong, but Atheistic culture tends to emphasize the rational, over and against those things deemed to be irrational or superstitious) this often causes people to find enjoyment in watching people do or say stupid things because they feel a sense of validation through the knowledge that they're more intelligent, and re-affirms their own value.
Actually, I find the most arrogant atheists are those that used to be arrogant theists.Obviously, this isn't all Athiests, but I would say a good portion of New Atheists follow that path.
By definition natural remission is not supernatural remission.Why can't natural remission be a miracle?
I will let truefiction answer this:why not? according to evolution many complex systems can evolve. so why not a car?
Baby cars are for children. ... "When I became a man, I put childish things away." (1 Corinthians 13:11)
Making a small car is not the same as having a baby car.so a car that is able to make a small car isnt a car?
Please show me where evolution says cars with wood trim can have babies.why not? if its made from organic components it will be possible according to evolution.
The source that supports this claim is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, which is the Body of Christ.
why not? according to evolution many complex systems can evolve. so why not a car?
so a car that is able to make a small car isnt a car?
Actually, the members of His Church comprise parts of His Body, and are doing His works in the world and doing even greater works than He did in His short-lived earthly ministry, on account of His ascension to the Father. When He was in the flesh we could not really know Him. Now that He is the exulted man in heaven, we know Him by the Holy Spirit to be the Eternal Word of God. Because of this we are doing great works by the same Holy Spirit by Whom He also did great works when He walked the earth in the flesh. You're inability to be aware of these things that are happening now doesn't mean that they aren't really happening. It just means that you're unaware, and will remain unaware so long as you don't care to become aware, through repentance. The Church is His Body, and there are mighty works taking place in it. This is the Body you need to examine for evidence of Christ's resurrection.No, they are the ones who have read the claim and been convinced.
Oh, for the Love of g.....I think it is time he has the talk about the birds and the BMWs.
because it happens naturally? I guess, you also believe natural reproduction to be a miracle too though, am I right?Why can't natural remission be a miracle?
Firstly, those who embrace anti-christ ideologies are atheists, regardless of what they think about themselves. Secondly, many of the greatest scientists were people of faith. Thirdly, when the leaders of the communist regime in Russia finally figured out that they couldn't stand against the German military without the support of all of their nation's people (including its people of faith), they changed tactics and stopped persecuting them to death. Afterwards, Germany could not defeat them. And finally, not all Christians are against science. It just isn't a thing that they worship, because science and technology isn't going to save anyone from annihilation, whereas the worship of science (called scientism, which is a false religion), is leading man to annihilate the very world he lives in.
Cool!I'm not "fundamentalist".
True, life long slavery with no chance of freedom would be worse... Being forced to marry your rapist and never being allowed to divorce is likely worse than death too. I guess I have to agree with you on that.There are things unfathomably worse than death.
Oh, so I guess we're right back where we started then - no good evidence one way or the other.The body is far too large and expansive to examine in the way you'd like, but its many parts can be looked upon and given serious consideration, because these parts often work great miraculous wonders, which can be sensed by anyone filled with the Holy Spirit.
so by your own admission, claiming to be a Christian is in no way a guarantee that such a person is any better than an atheist (who is arguably a better person for being honest about their views), right?Hitler was a child of his father Satan. He is not a child of God who is one "outwardly": only if one is a child of God "inwardly" can one be rightly called catholic. Those children of God who love others as they love themselves do not murder others: they pray for others and show thme compassion.
Well, Hitler indeed had a utopian vision, it certainly involved national pride and religious belief, both of which contributed to an ideology that killed millions of people. Even were he atheist (and he wasn't, be honest now), an ideology is not tied to atheism, I hate to break it to you. If you think this, it's because you've been lied to by someone with a vested interest in wanting you to hate atheists. This is virulently reflected in your first paragraph of your response directly linking atheists to anti-christian ideologies.Endnote* Where did Hitler's great vision actually lead his nation? Answer: to the creation of hell on earth -- not heaven. He did not believe that the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross is what has already saved the world, so he sacrificed instead the lives of millions of people all around the world in his and his people's quest to bring about an imagined utopia. Big - fat - lie.
Actually, the members of His Church comprise parts of His Body, and are doing His works in the world and doing even greater works than He did in His short-lived earthly ministry, on account of His ascension to the Father. When He was in the flesh we could not really know Him. Now that He is the exulted man in heaven, we know Him by the Holy Spirit to be the Eternal Word of God. Because of this we are doing great works by the same Holy Spirit by Whom He also did great works when He walked the earth in the flesh. You're inability to be aware of these things that are happening now doesn't mean that they aren't really happening. It just means that you're unaware, and will remain unaware so long as you don't care to become aware, through repentance. The Church is His Body, and there are mighty works taking place in it. This is the Body you need to examine for evidence of Christ's resurrection.
It isn't a claim. The work that is being done is evidence. You're unwillingness to be aware of the evidence doesn't make it any less real. If I was unaware of evidence that there's a genetic link predisposing a person toward alcoholism, for example, and the evidence was real, my ignorance doesn't make the evidence any less real. If you're unaware of the evidence of Christ's resurrection, because you are ignorant of it, that doesn't make the evidence less real. It just means that you are ignorant of it.Once again, this is a claim. Claims are not evidence.
People who believe the claim are not evidence that the claim is true.
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