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the self replicating watch argument

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Anguspure

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The only evidence of design we have ever known, is the observation of designer and process of design, passed on through information to everyone else. It is the ONLY way design has ever been identified. The lack of it has always resulted in the lack of confirmation of design.

Flagellum does not have that. So can you please explain to me what this prima face evidence you say we have is? How has it been confirmed?
Not true. We may observe design through the appraisal of functional coherence in the absence of a designer. Historical sciences do this all the time.
Discoveries of historical objects that show evidence of design while we know nothing of the designer are common, and commonly lead us to beleive that a designer is worth looking for.
That we subsequently confirm our conclusions by discovery and observation of the people who designed only strengthens the principle.
 
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46AND2

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Not true. We may observe design through the appraisal of functional coherence in the absence of a designer. Historical sciences do this all the time.
Discoveries of historical objects that show evidence of design while we know nothing of the designer are common, and commonly lead us to beleive that a designer is worth looking for.
That we subsequently confirm our conclusions by discovery and observation of the people who designed only strengthens the principle.

Nope. It's all part of that information bit that is passed on. Give me an example of your historic oddity, and I'll show you...
 
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Larniavc

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functional coherence
What units are you using to measure functional coherence?

Or is it another case of “I know desisn when I see it”?
 
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Anguspure

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What units are you using to measure functional coherence?

Or is it another case of “I know desisn when I see it”?
What enables inventions to perform so seamlessly is a property we’ll call functional coherence. It is nothing more than complete alignment of low-level functions in support of the top-level function.
Figure 9.3 illustrates this schematically for a hypothetical invention built from two main components, both of which can be broken down into two subcomponents, each of which can in turn be broken down into elementary constituents. Horizontal brackets group parts on a given level that form something bigger one level up, with the upward arrows indicating these compositional relationships. Notice that every part functions on its own level in a way that supports the top-level function. This complete unity of function is what we mean by functional coherence.

url

Figure 9.3 The hierarchical structure of an invention, showing the functional coherence that characterizes the relationships between parts. In this scheme the parts at intermediate levels (between the elementary constituents and the functional whole) are referred to as components. The number of intermediate levels and components depends both on the invention and, to a degree, on the way we choose to delineate its principal parts. The invariant fact is that the many parts must perform their small functions in a particular hierarchical way in order for the whole invention to perform its large function.
Functional coherence: the hierarchical arrangement of parts needed for anything to produce a high-level function—each part contributing in a coordinated way to the whole.
Douglas Axe, Undeniable
 

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Anguspure

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Nope. It's all part of that information bit that is passed on. Give me an example of your historic oddity, and I'll show you...
A bit of rock of a type that is not naturally found in the location it is found that has a sharp edge on one side and an attachment point for a handle on the other side.
This is a relatively common discovery where I come from and because there is no other reasonable conclusion the former presence of people is inferred from this sort of evidence alone.
 
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46AND2

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A bit of rock of a type that is not naturally found in the location it is found

Information that flagellum don't possess in any sort of equivalence.

that has a sharp edge on one side and an attachment point for a handle on the other side.

Information that is learned based on other discoveries with handle still attached, or that the tip is embedded in animal bone, or various other bits of information, to include people who still hunted this way in recorded history.

This is a relatively common discovery where I come from and because there is no other reasonable conclusion the former presence of people is inferred from this sort of evidence alone.

And subsequently confirmed by other methods. Let it also be known that until confirmation is achieved, it COULD just be a piece of rock, that LOOKS like an arrow or spearhead (which again we know are designed because we, as humans, have observed it to be so) through natural breakage. What it LOOKS like, is irrelevant. It's all that other information we possess which confirms it is designed. Information we don't possess in any way, shape, or form for the flagellum.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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The fagellum exhibits functional coherence at such a level that design is the best and most obvious conclusion. Any explanation that does not recognise the design is simply an absurdity.
Except the only way by which we know the flagellum to exist is by natural reproduction and never by design.
To resort to complete and utter absurdities because one hasn't met the designer, while posessing prima face evidence of design is ridiculous willfull foolishness.
To assume a designer in the face of evidence to the contrary is what is foolishness. We only have the theory of evolution that both explains the diversity and processes involved, and these processes have been repeatedly observed and documented.
The appraisal of such a high level of functional coherence in even the most basic biological form provides evidence of design at a significantly higher level than the best designers we know on Earth. So it should be obvious that the designer may not be observed or observable from our vantage point.
Where is this 'designer' and why do we never see this 'designer' designing anything, rather we just see ever so slightly modified organisms being selectively filtered by their environment, leaving the more improved organisms to reproduce the next generation of slightly modified organisms to repeat this endless process. This process of Evolution adequately explains all the biodiversity we have without having to add imaginary layers of interference over and above it.
So to suggest that biological forms that clearly exhibit design at such high levels, may have come into existence by accidental invention or through some completely unknown unobserved and completely implausable process is just throwing up hands and gibbering like a monkey because we can't see how 1+1 must equal 2.
1+1 equalling 2 is verifiable, so bad analogy. All the processes that lead to the biological diversity of life we see today has been observed and is well documented. We've even been able to replicate natural selection (ironically becoming artificial selection) in the lab to produce quite a number of novel structures in a variety of lifeforms, no design needed.
Not true. We may observe design through the appraisal of functional coherence in the absence of a designer. Historical sciences do this all the time.
Because of the tell-tale tool marks and evidence of manufacturing by a designer - not because we just infer design.
Discoveries of historical objects that show evidence of design while we know nothing of the designer are common, and commonly lead us to beleive that a designer is worth looking for.
That we subsequently confirm our conclusions by discovery and observation of the people who designed only strengthens the principle.
Because of the evidence of design due to the tell-tale tool marks and manufacturing processes, not because of inference.
What enables inventions to perform so seamlessly is a property we’ll call functional coherence. It is nothing more than complete alignment of low-level functions in support of the top-level function.
so it doesn't apply to things that aren't invented things then, so we can discard that idea. Also, your pic isn't viewable - some sites don't allow third-party linking to them.
A bit of rock of a type that is not naturally found in the location it is found that has a sharp edge on one side and an attachment point for a handle on the other side.
.....so, it has tell-tale signs of manufacture and design by a designer then, probably because we've seen designers designing and manufacturing them?
This is a relatively common discovery where I come from and because there is no other reasonable conclusion the former presence of people is inferred from this sort of evidence alone.
Because there are tell-tale signs of manufacture, such as controlled chipping of the stone, shaping of diverse materials that don't come together naturally, and likely an established history of existing tribal manufacture of the same, or similar tools to the ones found there, etc.

Biological organisms and structures don't have any of that.
 
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Larniavc

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What enables inventions to perform so seamlessly is a property we’ll call functional coherence. It is nothing more than complete alignment of low-level functions in support of the top-level function.
Figure 9.3 illustrates this schematically for a hypothetical invention built from two main components, both of which can be broken down into two subcomponents, each of which can in turn be broken down into elementary constituents. Horizontal brackets group parts on a given level that form something bigger one level up, with the upward arrows indicating these compositional relationships. Notice that every part functions on its own level in a way that supports the top-level function. This complete unity of function is what we mean by functional coherence.

url

Figure 9.3 The hierarchical structure of an invention, showing the functional coherence that characterizes the relationships between parts. In this scheme the parts at intermediate levels (between the elementary constituents and the functional whole) are referred to as components. The number of intermediate levels and components depends both on the invention and, to a degree, on the way we choose to delineate its principal parts. The invariant fact is that the many parts must perform their small functions in a particular hierarchical way in order for the whole invention to perform its large function.
Functional coherence: the hierarchical arrangement of parts needed for anything to produce a high-level function—each part contributing in a coordinated way to the whole.
Douglas Axe, Undeniable
I know what it purports to be.

I’m asking what units it is measured in.
 
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SkyWriting

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It would have antecedents. These antecedents would reveal themselves through the aforementioned specialities. That view of the evidence would trump the speculative suggestion that it demonstrated design.
Self replication is a difficult property to do half-way well.
And how do you half-way self-replicate long enough
to finish the job?
 
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xianghua

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Please re-read the parenthetical clause over and over again until it sinks in....
they looks identical. so again: according to your criteria we need to conclude the a genome was designed.


by the way: according to this if we will see a ufo you will not conclude design since you never seen someone who build a ufo.
 
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pitabread

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Discoveries of historical objects that show evidence of design while we know nothing of the designer are common, and commonly lead us to beleive that a designer is worth looking for.

Discoveries of historical objects show evidence of human manufacture. Where is the evidence of manufacture in the flagellum?
 
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dmmesdale

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Discoveries of historical objects show evidence of human manufacture.
Non human design in beaver dams and bee hives.
Where is the evidence of manufacture in the flagellum?
In the flagellum. Although some may have problem with this since they believe the human brain is the result of natural processes. No teleology here! Small wonder they would see no evidence of design in the flagellum.
 
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Larniavc

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pitabread

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Non human design in beaver dams and bee hives.

Which again show evidence of manufacture by their respective organisms. For example, beavers topple trees as a result of chewing them, which typically results in ends depicting a conical chewed pattern.

For example:

beaver-tree-damage-11915164.jpg


It is the process by which things are created which leaves tell-tale patterns as evidence of their manufacture.

In the flagellum.

And how exactly does the flagellum show evidence of deliberate manufacture?
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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Non human design in beaver dams and bee hives.
You're right! Just like the earliest tools made by hominids and not humans, there's a wide variety of animals observed using tools of various calibre and complexity in nature today - EARLY HOMINID TOOLS—: WHO MADE THEM AND HOW WERE THEY MADE? | Facts and Details
In the flagellum. Although some may have problem with this since they believe the human brain is the result of natural processes. No teleology here! Small wonder they would see no evidence of design in the flagellum.
Then it'll be easy to point it out if that's the case then - every example of a flagellum we've ever observed coming about, always comes about via natural means and never is designed by any designer at all. Show us this flagellum that's designed and doesn't come about naturally and you'll have a point.
 
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46AND2

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they looks identical. so again: according to your criteria we need to conclude the a genome was designed.


by the way: according to this if we will see a ufo you will not conclude design since you never seen someone who build a ufo.

I asked you to re-read the parenthetical clause until it sinks in....you apparently didn't.

I said REPLICATION is not the same thing as CREATION. In other words, if you replicate something (the synthetic genome) you are not designing it, now are you?
 
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