The Self-Evident

[Resha Caner]

Many moons ago I started a thread similar to this, but in light of recent conversations it seems worthwhile to do it again - albeit with a slightly different twist.

Is anything self-evident? IOW, is there something which doesn't require any assumptions?

 

[Upisoft]

Many moons ago I started a thread similar to this, but in light of recent conversations it seems worthwhile to do it again - albeit with a slightly different twist.

Is anything self-evident? IOW, is there something which doesn't require any assumptions?

Nope. Anything has to become a model in your brain before you can even start thinking about it. And the model is not the thing.

 

[Resha Caner]

Nope. Anything has to become a model in your brain before you can even start thinking about it. And the model is not the thing.

Cool. You'll get no arguments from me on that.

 

[Lethe]

Is anything self-evident? IOW, is there something which doesn't require any assumptions?

Anything has to become a model in your brain before you can even start thinking about it. And the model is not the thing.

I agree with the response, but let me shift the context of the question before someone comes along and does it.

I believe there are things whose evidence is easily accessible and not open to a large number of separate interpretations. I believe it is these things which people refer when they THINK of self-evident concepts.

Example: solid objects. We all believe it is self evident that I can't pass through a brick wall. Well, unless there's a door or some serious bodily harm.

 

[durangodawood]

What about your SELF? (Like Descartes said.)

 

[BarryDesborough]

Many moons ago I started a thread similar to this, but in light of recent conversations it seems worthwhile to do it again - albeit with a slightly different twist.

Is anything self-evident? IOW, is there something which doesn't require any assumptions?

Not exactly self-evident, but close:- take Descarte's, "I think, therefore I am."

Well, if I exist, I exist, whether I believe I exist or not.

And if I don't exist, the question doesn't arise.

So I don't believe I exist. I just do it (I seem to think).

 

[Resha Caner]

What about your SELF? (Like Descartes said.)

Descartes began by doubting everything. From doubt he deduced he was thinking, and thereby that he existed. As such, his assumption was the doubt. Brilliant as that line of reasoning may be, it still includes assumptions.

I agree with the response, but let me shift the context of the question before someone comes along and does it.

I believe there are things whose evidence is easily accessible and not open to a large number of separate interpretations. I believe it is these things which people refer when they THINK of self-evident concepts.

Yes, there is a practical limit beyond which it becomes silly to press the alternatives ... though it happens quite often in this forum.

 

[Lethe]

There are also concepts that are so obvious we never think of them.

Example: Physical objects self-account.

A pile of money can be counted and in that we we know how much there is. Banks, on the other hand, must carefully keep track of your balance, because there is no physical object to count up. This is a super subtle concept that no one ever thinks about.

 

[Resha Caner]

There are also concepts that are so obvious we never think of them.

And yet when someone does think of them ... questions them ... we call him a genius (e.g. Einstein).

 

[Lethe]

What about your SELF? (Like Descartes said.)

Go take some ketamine and I guarantee you that your self will no longer be self-evident.

 

[BarryDesborough]

Go take some ketamine and I guarantee you that your self will no longer be self-evident.

One is not oneself under ketamine.

 

[Lethe]

Prove it.

 

[durangodawood]

Descartes began by doubting everything. From doubt he deduced he was thinking, and thereby that he existed. As such, his assumption was the doubt. Brilliant as that line of reasoning may be, it still includes assumptions.

The doubt was an investigative tool, not an assumption about the self. The self was what survived the removal of assumptions.

The question is: did he remove all assumptions? I'm not sure. Probably not.

 

[durangodawood]

Go take some ketamine and I guarantee you that your self will no longer be self-evident.

Or dreamless sleep. But so what? An un-assumed self doenst require the self to be eternal nor changeless.

 

[Lethe]

The doubt was an investigative tool, not an assumption about the self. The self was what survived the removal of assumptions.

Removal of assumptions requires the careful definition and demonstration of all components of the argument. This was part of my tongue in cheek response regarding the self: prove it.

I take the approach of the empiricist on this one, proving the existence of your own experience is rather difficult, but we can devise tests like the Turing test that can, if not demonstrate the existence of a self, demonstrate that the self responds indistinguishably from other selfs.

 

[Resha Caner]

The doubt was an investigative tool, not an assumption about the self. The self was what survived the removal of assumptions.

The question is: did he remove all assumptions? I'm not sure. Probably not.

I didn't say it was an assumption about self, just that it was an assumption. There's been a lot of discussion regarding whether Descartes made assumptions. Nietzsche even gave what he thought the assumptions were. It's funny that people will agree he made assumptions and then disagree about what those assumptions were.

So, maybe you're right that doubt is not an assumption, but I seem to have a healthy list of big names on my side that he at least made some kind of assumption.

 

[Upisoft]

What about your SELF? (Like Descartes said.)

That too has to become a model in your brain.. it happens somewhere 2nd year after birth

 

[Resha Caner]

I take the approach of the empiricist on this one, proving the existence of your own experience is rather difficult ...

Indeed it is, and so we believers have a tough time of it.

... but we can devise tests like the Turing test that can, if not demonstrate the existence of a self, demonstrate that the self responds indistinguishably from other selfs.

This confused me. What have we accomplished in identifying self if we prove it indistinguishable?

 

[durangodawood]

That too has to become a model in your brain.. it happens somewhere 2nd year after birth

Model or real, what the difference in this context? At the least, its a real model.

 

[Lethe]

OK. Let me clarify: ..demonstrate that a self has properties consistent with selves.