The Seeker-Sensitive Church..?

[HisSparkPlug]

A gal on another forum posted this article. Although it doesn't say just 'why' they've removed the bits about "sin" & "satan", I suspect it's due to being 'seeker sensitive' --> Anglican church accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service

What are your thoughts on seeker sensitivity in the church and how rampant is it really becoming?

 

[MeloMom]

I think seeker-friendly churches are on the rise...almost "apologetic" to be acknowledged as a bible believing church but more as a "gathering, feel-good place". Also, they don't refer to the Name of Jesus but talk about "God", and little to none about the Holy Spirit. It's maybe good to a point to get people that know nothing, or back-slidden in the right direction, but then people new to move on to learn and grow as soon as possible! There are different levels if faith but I don't know...maybe the world is getting too lukewarm in these end days?

 

[jimbattle]

They need to stop compromising God's will and His truth just to win people over.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm a little hesitant to outright criticize the move without qualification.

I used to though. It really REALLY bothered me, especially as a new (and perhaps overly zealous?) Christian.

I think MeloMom makes a good point. I've seen it be a point of entry for those who would be put off by other churches.

But if I listen to sermons by those pastors, and if I consider it's ALL their flock may be hearing, well it's a bit like eating nothing but icing. It's sweet to the taste, but not much of substance there. Often you don't even hear the gospel, in any form.

One could argue that in this Information Age, the congregation has access to plenty of teaching online. But (1) will they actually access it, and (2) if they do, can they possibly have the discernment yet to sift out the bad from the truth?

I definitely have my concerns. But it may be it's a good place for people to start out.

My first foray into a church outside the one I was used to terrified me, and I kid you not, if I hadn't been physically blocked by the overpacked room, I would have run for the door. As it turns out, it was good for me and I've been to lots of churches, learned and grew a lot. But I try to remember if a "seeker" came into that church, they might never have entered another.

So I've come to think they may have a place. I would rather see people move from them to churches that fostered growth when they are ready though (which would hopefully not be long). Or put in discipleship programs - something!

 

[rockytopva]

I was brought up in a doctrinal church. It was hard for me to stay awake listening to all that cut and dry stuff.

 

[sunlover1]

A gal on another forum posted this article. Although it doesn't say just 'why' they've removed the bits about "sin" & "satan", I suspect it's due to being 'seeker sensitive' --> Anglican church accused of 'dumbing down' baptism service

What are your thoughts on seeker sensitivity in the church and how rampant is it really becoming?

I love the idea of being seeker sensitive,
but leaving out bits of the truth is not
'sensitive' at all.
You can't show God's love through
deceit. It's not loving to fail to warn
them about the enemy of the faith.
That's like leaving them sitting ducks.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Parody Of Our Modern Church Service - YouTube

-CryptoLutheran

 

[HisSparkPlug]

Just to clarify:
"Seeker-friendly" basically means the church doesn't want to teach anything to make a "seeker" uncomfortable. You won't hear teachings on sin (ie homosexuality), repentance, hell, etc. The pastor/minister doesn't challenge people to live holy and the hyper-grace message abounds. They simplify Christianity in exchange for church growth and to avoid people getting offended with them.

The pastor may preach the Word, but they avoid topics such as sin, repentance, hell, etc. One of my questions regarding pastors/ministers who do this is 'Do they hear from God at all?'. If Jesus did only as He saw His Father in heaven doing then we (leaders & teachers esp) should be speaking what God tells us to speak. We know the Lord isn't going to tell people to leave out huge portions of scriptures & warnings to appease people just b/c leadership doesn't want anyone to get upset with them. God used His mouth-pieces in the Word to constantly warn & exhort His people so they'd stay on the straight & narrow. Is the church doing that today?

These services are soft & feel-good but it's not about worship being 'contemporary' that's silly..the scripture below sure sounds like a noisy band to me
Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre.
4 Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord - Ps 150:3-6

 

[Sayre]

Parody Of Our Modern Church Service - YouTube

-CryptoLutheran

Aww man that's awesome LOL.

 

[DiceRider]

Any "church" that hasnt the balls to conduct the service the way it is supposed to be in fear of offending people that dont believe, has no rights to any respect imo.. Its almost cultish not to mention totally deceptive.

 

[graceandpeace]

I used to think being "seeker-friendly" was a good thing, but I've completely changed my mind. The church is for those who do believe, not for those who don't. And if those who don't venture into the service, they should be welcomed by the congregation - but not subjected to dumbed down messages or altar calls.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Just to clarify:
"Seeker-friendly" basically means the church doesn't want to teach anything to make a "seeker" uncomfortable. You won't hear teachings on sin (ie homosexuality), repentance, hell, etc. The pastor/minister doesn't challenge people to live holy and the hyper-grace message abounds. They simplify Christianity in exchange for church growth and to avoid people getting offended with them.

The pastor may preach the Word, but they avoid topics such as sin, repentance, hell, etc. One of my questions regarding pastors/ministers who do this is 'Do they hear from God at all?'. If Jesus did only as He saw His Father in heaven doing then we (leaders & teachers esp) should be speaking what God tells us to speak. We know the Lord isn't going to tell people to leave out huge portions of scriptures & warnings to appease people just b/c leadership doesn't want anyone to get upset with them. God used His mouth-pieces in the Word to constantly warn & exhort His people so they'd stay on the straight & narrow. Is the church doing that today?

These services are soft & feel-good but it's not about worship being 'contemporary' that's silly..the scripture below sure sounds like a noisy band to me
Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre.
4 Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord - Ps 150:3-6

That's not quite what "seeker-friendly" refers to. It's in relation to the Church Growth Movement. The idea is to appeal to the unchurched to bring them into the doors and keep them in the pews.

The seeker-friendly thing may and probably is going to involve dumbing down Christianity. There are plenty of seeker-friendly churches that are big on talking about Hell and sin. It's just that they dress church up in a certain kind of garb to appeal to the chosen demographic.

Cool church for cool kids.

If your church has a full stage production with a praise band and lights, you might have a seeker-friendly church.

If your preacher dresses like a hipster and uses Powerpoint, you might have a seeker-friendly church.

If your church leadership guilt trips you about not bringing enough people into church and talks about how it's your job to convert people and people you know who go to Hell will wonder why you didn't do more to help them, then you might have a seeker-friendly church.

If your church's outreach programs focus mainly in using popular media and seeks to have a sleek, modern approach, then you might have a seeker-friendly church.

The seeker-friendly thing is always about appealing to the unchurched to get them into the church, and strategizes on how to develop methods and tactics to accomplish that goal.

And usually that means having church not look like church, and usually is at the detriment to true doctrine and the right preaching of Law and Gospel.

If your church preaches about how God just wants to bless you with stuff and/or happiness and spends a lot of time telling you how you can improve yourself and your relationships, then you probably have a self-help social club.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gnarwhal]

That's not quite what "seeker-friendly" refers to. It's in relation to the Church Growth Movement. The idea is to appeal to the unchurched to bring them into the doors and keep them in the pews.

The seeker-friendly thing may and probably is going to involve dumbing down Christianity. There are plenty of seeker-friendly churches that are big on talking about Hell and sin. It's just that they dress church up in a certain kind of garb to appeal to the chosen demographic.

Cool church for cool kids.

If your church has a full stage production with a praise band and lights, you might have a seeker-friendly church.

If your preacher dresses like a hipster and uses Powerpoint, you might have a seeker-friendly church.

If your church leadership guilt trips you about not bringing enough people into church and talks about how it's your job to convert people and people you know who go to Hell will wonder why you didn't do more to help them, then you might have a seeker-friendly church.

If your church's outreach programs focus mainly in using popular media and seeks to have a sleek, modern approach, then you might have a seeker-friendly church.

The seeker-friendly thing is always about appealing to the unchurched to get them into the church, and strategizes on how to develop methods and tactics to accomplish that goal.

And usually that means having church not look like church, and usually is at the detriment to true doctrine and the right preaching of Law and Gospel.

If your church preaches about how God just wants to bless you with stuff and/or happiness and spends a lot of time telling you how you can improve yourself and your relationships, then you probably have a self-help social club.

-CryptoLutheran

You nailed it. That's exactly what it is, for shame. Not that I'm a fan of the "frozen chosen" either, but the churches that put more effort into their presentation then the actual substance are pathetic. I can say this because my old church is doing exactly that. Pfft.

 

[ForceofTime]

These services are soft & feel-good but it's not about worship being 'contemporary' that's silly..the scripture below sure sounds like a noisy band to me
Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre.
4 Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord - Ps 150:3-6

Earsplitting for some, I suppose...

Isa 30:29-32 KJV
(29) Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.
(30) And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
(31) For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
(32) And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well, I was a bit lazy in my post. Crypto-Lutheran is right, technically.

In popular discussion, I've heard three kinds of churches referred to as "seeker friendly" and I was thinking of all three, so my answer was lazy and technically incorrect.

Many people do call the "God loves you and wants you to have a great life" churches seeker churches. Those tend to swell the congregation size. That's what I was talking about when I mentioned feeding the flock only icing. You seldom hear the Gospel, and I worry about the salvation of members. Do they even know they NEED to trust in Christ and His sacrifice?

I've attended a few churches some refer to as "seeker friendly" that are of the sort that seek to attract tattooed bikers and disaffected teens, and others who tend to reject "regular church" because it tends to reject them before they even open their mouths, based solely on their appearance. Most of the ones I've attended have been good, and those are the ones that make me feel "seeker friendly" can be a good thing.

And finally I've visited a few of the kind you're talking about, crypto-Lutheran. I've been treated to laser-light shows worthy of any concert, played by famous Christian performers who reportedly drew a $10k salary WEEKLY for their performances. I've been on campuses you could almost live on, with Starbucks coffee shops, extensive bookstores, full sports complexes, and much more! And yes, there was PowerPoint, and lots of programs for the whole family to be involved in. The "true seeker sensitive" brand. They tended to be in or near metro areas, or at least population dense ones like stretches of California, where many wealthy potential congregants lived within driving distance.

As I only visited these, I can't comment on them across the board, but the focus of some seemed to be more concerned with how the members handled their money than their faith (someone had to pay for all that - am I jaded much?) and all seemed very focused on getting more and more people in the door by whatever means. I have only the word of others to tell me what the real focus of the church was. Some were concerned (yet kept going apparently) and some thought it was great. These pretty much leave an all-around bad taste in my mouth.

It may be irrelevant, but one such famous church I visited on a Sunday night apparently tailored that service to the youth, and the evening I went, they talked about sex. I'm no prude, but I DO believe certain standards and attitudes are appropriate coming from the pulpit, especially when addressing youth, and I was mildly shocked. (They weren't advocating abstinence, I can tell you that, and talked in greater detail than I'd want a young child exposed to. Considering youth apparently included about age 9 and up, it was even more inappropriate.)

Ok, I'm done. I just recognized my first post, in combining all the things people tend to call "seeker sensitive", ended up being not really honest. I apologize.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I would point out that if the Church is turning away people because of their appearance, that clearly is a significant problem.

But the problem isn't a lack of light shows and fireworks, it's a lack of Christian charity and a failure of the Church being the Church. The answer isn't in making church look less like church to attract people; the answer is in church being church.

It is God who calls, God who draws. Having faith that God, indeed, uses His Word and Sacraments to accomplish what He will accomplish. It's not our job to convert other people, principally because we can't. Nobody can lead a person to Jesus, that is the purview of the Holy Spirit who works through the preaching of the Word, it is the Spirit who brings and creates faith by the preaching of the Gospel (Romans 10:17).

Neither you nor me, not even Christ's own Apostles has ever made anyone a Christian. God did that all on His own.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[~Anastasia~]

I would point out that if the Church is turning away people because of their appearance, that clearly is a significant problem.

But the problem isn't a lack of light shows and fireworks, it's a lack of Christian charity and a failure of the Church being the Church. The answer isn't in making church look less like church to attract people; the answer is in church being church.



-CryptoLutheran

I agree.

Of course the church shouldn't turn people away because of how they look. And I've rarely heard of that actually happening, while I've much more often been in churches that welcomed people no matter what.

But how do those on the "outside" feel when they see a congregation leaving church, all in their Sunday best, and looking very conformed? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but might the tattooed biker, the kid with a punk hairdo and goth attire, the woman whose only dress barely skims the top of her thighs - might they not look at themselves and judge that they don't fit in? Might they not be afraid to encounter the condemning stares they expect will be there, whether they actually would be or not?

I don't actually know what goes on in people's minds.

But I've been in a number of churches that attracted people like that. Now, again in being honest as I made the distinction in my last post, these aren't (in my experience) light-show churches. Those are another category. These are usually found in old movie theaters, abandoned strip malls, and the like. The building rarely looks like a church. I've never seen elaborate stage shows, though loud music is common. There often is no overhead, and if there is, they usually are nowhere near as technologically advanced as PowerPoint. The only amenity is usually a church nursery, though they might offer coffee and refreshments before the service. The pastor usually looks like a slightly-cleaned-up version of his congregants, and has a friendly and uncalculated manner.

I have experienced a true presence of worship in such services, but they are usually too loud and too rock-and-roll for my taste (and I enjoy contemporary Christian music). The teaching is often quite insightful and Biblical. It seems these pastors are actually LESS afraid of offending their congregation than most other types of churches.

This is the one part of the churches sometimes labeled "seeker" that I am praising.

Not my style, but they serve their flocks.

(And btw, I do agree that Salvation is God's business. I believe we can share the truths we have, but that's about it. You, I, and yes the Apostles were unable to "save" anyone.)

 

[ViaCrucis]

I agree.

Of course the church shouldn't turn people away because of how they look. And I've rarely heard of that actually happening, while I've much more often been in churches that welcomed people no matter what.

But how do those on the "outside" feel when they see a congregation leaving church, all in their Sunday best, and looking very conformed? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but might the tattooed biker, the kid with a punk hairdo and goth attire, the woman whose only dress barely skims the top of her thighs - might they not look at themselves and judge that they don't fit in? Might they not be afraid to encounter the condemning stares they expect will be there, whether they actually would be or not?

I don't actually know what goes on in people's minds.

But I've been in a number of churches that attracted people like that. Now, again in being honest as I made the distinction in my last post, these aren't (in my experience) light-show churches. Those are another category. These are usually found in old movie theaters, abandoned strip malls, and the like. The building rarely looks like a church. I've never seen elaborate stage shows, though loud music is common. There often is no overhead, and if there is, they usually are nowhere near as technologically advanced as PowerPoint. The only amenity is usually a church nursery, though they might offer coffee and refreshments before the service. The pastor usually looks like a slightly-cleaned-up version of his congregants, and has a friendly and uncalculated manner.

I have experienced a true presence of worship in such services, but they are usually too loud and too rock-and-roll for my taste (and I enjoy contemporary Christian music). The teaching is often quite insightful and Biblical. It seems these pastors are actually LESS afraid of offending their congregation than most other types of churches.

This is the one part of the churches sometimes labeled "seeker" that I am praising.

Not my style, but they serve their flocks.

(And btw, I do agree that Salvation is God's business. I believe we can share the truths we have, but that's about it. You, I, and yes the Apostles were unable to "save" anyone.)

I pretty rarely dress up for any occasion. I'm just a jeans and t-shirt kind of guy. While none of my tattoos show, I have both ears pierced (used to have my eyebrow pierced); and I'd say most people who worship at my church come dressed somewhere between slacker casual and "fancy" casual. Sweater vests and jeans, that sort of thing.

So I'd say what most people would see when we're leaving mass is a hodgepodge of fairly ordinary people. That's been my experience in most of the Lutheran churches I've visited or been part of.

Oddly, the only time I've seen people all gussied up for church was in my pre-Lutheran church-shopping days when I visited several of the larger mega or mega-ish churches, in particular one in which the service was a laser light show concert. So it was the seeker-friendly with the in-church coffee house and book stores that had the "Sunday finest" crowd.

Though this is the Pacific Northwest, and slacker casual is just how we typically do up in this rainy corner of the world.

That's just my experience though.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ananda]

I used to think being "seeker-friendly" was a good thing, but I've completely changed my mind. The church is for those who do believe, not for those who don't.

I believe congregational meetings are supposed to be safe, protected places for faithful believers to gather to hear the uncompromised Word, and learn how to put it into practice. Then, the faithful believers are to go out into the world to witness to the heathen, in word and deed.

Instead, the so-called "church" is inviting in the heathen to hear an unoffensive, compromised message, not putting much into practice, and not fulfilling the Great Commission. These "churches" don't realize that, by watering down the message for the heathen, they are compromising their own message and witness at the same time.

 

[tturt]

Most every church has a "everyone is welcome" sign but (imo) in actually most have the attitude that "you're welcome to attend if you're like us."