The secrets of "Faith", and the narrow path.

[faither]

In this thread I would like to identify a problem, the wide path, a stumbling block, and most of all a secret of "Faith". Not Faith the noun, which is "pistis" in the original texts. But Faith the verb, "pisteuo" that is what's in the original texts.

Problem, wide path, a stumbling block.
1) When the Greek texts were translated into English, they came to this word "pisteuo" and discovered there was no English word for the verb form of Faith. What they needed to translate "pisteuo" in to English was the words , Faither, Faithing, and to Faithe. But as you know, those words are not in the English vocabulary. So what are they supposed to do? This word "pisteuo" is arguably the most important word in Gods Word. Put yourself in their shoes, what are you going to do, what are your options? Well, they could have lobbied to have the correct words added to the English language I guess, but how long would that take? They were no doubt excvited about getting this first ever English translation out to the public.
They might have said , well, its only one word, lets just find a word that is the closest we can come up with. But to their surprise, this word "pisteuo" is used 248 times in the Gospels alone. This is a huge problem.
For what ever reason, they chose to use the words "believe, believer, and believing." These words aren't what "pisteuo" fully means, but it's at least part of it is correct.

You see the meaning of the word "pisteuo" in the Greek is best defined according to my experiences in the Vines unabridged edition. There it defines "pisteuo" as , "A personal surrender to Him." ( We all know what a surrender is, and what must be surrendered, and who it must be surrendered to.) " And a life inspired by such surrender." ( which means I'm continually surrendering my life to Jesus ). I not only am surrendering my life to Him daily, hourly, and by the minute, i'm filtering every decision I make all day long through that surrender. That is what "pisteuo" is. Much more than belief.

A good understanding of "pisteuo" in English since we don't have the correct word, is what we call the a,b,c's of Faith, the verb. That is: " An action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence." You can see that belief only covers one third of the original meaning. If someone has built their entire understanding on believing in Jesus for Salvation, they have fallen as they hit the stumbling block. They are on the wide path. You know 99.9 percent of the Christian world has built their salvation on this "MISTRANSLATION"

Who is to blame for this? Is it the translators ? They only did the best of what was at their disposal! Is it us? We are only reading and acting on what our Bibles say. " If I "believe" in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ i'm saved. That's what it says! But the truth is, it should say, "If we "Faithe" (pisteuo") in the name of the Lord Jesus Cjhrist ( personally surrendering to Him continually, filtering all of our decision making through that surrender, we will be saved !" Faithing is an action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence.

There is no such word as believe, believing, or believer in the Greek language that I can find. The problem is when it was mistranslated from the Greek to English, the reverse thing happened. If you look at the translation of "belief" in English, and trace it back to the Greek, Yup, it has been mistranslated not only from Greek to English, but from English to Greek. They had to, what else could they have done?

I know this is a really hard pill to swallow, and your first instinct might be to attack the messenger. Please don't! Maybe read through this post 2 or 3 times and just give it a little time to let God draw you. I would like to answer any questions you might have. I won't attack you back.

The "one thing" we as the ones drawn by the Father do not want to do Iron2Iron?
"It's surrendering our life to God" PISTEUO! If we don't, we don't have the Holy Spirit in us. If we don't, Christ is none of ours. And if Christ is not ours, Gods Word is not ours. None of it! So now you can kind of see why I was so adamant about focusing the osas conversation on the once saved part of the osas equation. Rom. 8:9

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's first see what the Greek scholars say about pisteuo:

pisteuō

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

1a) of the thing believed

1a1) to credit, have confidence

1b) in a moral or religious reference

1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which aman is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

2a) to be intrusted with a thing

And faither said this:
"You see the meaning of the word "pisteuo" in the Greek is best defined according to my experiences in the Vines unabridged edition. There it defines "pisteuo" as , "A personal surrender to Him." ( We all know what a surrender is, and what must be surrendered, and who it must be surrendered to.) " And a life inspired by such surrender." ( which means I'm continually surrendering my life to Jesus ). I not only am surrendering my life to Him daily, hourly, and by the minute, i'm filtering every decision I make all day long through that surrender. That is what "pisteuo" is. Much more than belief."

Where did Vines come up with this meaning? How different is his understanding from Strong's, which I posted above? Not that different.

While Vines says "personal surrender", Strong's says believe to be true, persuaded, having confidence in (1, 1a)

Then Strong's speaks of "trust" in 1b2, 2 and 2a.

so, let's examine the meaning of trust, or entrusting. Another words commonly used for entrust is "commit". And like faither, many use the word to mean that we surrender our lives and wills to His. iow, a lifestyle change.

However, this is the definition of "commit":
Commit: 1. to give in charge or trust, deliver for safekeeping 2. to put officially in dustody/confinement 3. to do or perpetrate 4. to pledge, bind, engage 5. to refer a bill, etc to a committee

Let's begin with the first meaning; deliver for safekeeping. What does that mean? It means that we have put our very souls into God's charge FOR SAFEKEEPING. That is salvation. We have entrusted our souls to God for salvation.

This trust does not have anything to do with lifestyle at all. The Scriptures are clear that the commands for obedience and faithfulness are for those who already have believed (entrusted their souls to God for salvation).

That fact immediately refutes all those who believe in conditional security, who claim that one must change their lifestyle in order to be or stay saved. So all effort is placed on the person to meet certain criteria for either salvation or the maintenance of it.

Such thinking divorces one from putting their souls in God's hands for safekeeping. And John 10:28,29 clearly show that those who have believed ARE in God's hands. Safe and secure.

If one thinks they need to change their lifestyle for salvation, they ARE NOT TRUSTING THEIR SOULS TO CHRIST FOR SALVATION.

They are depending on their own efforts to either get or stay saved. Which gets neither.

It is interesting that faither gloms onto just 1 work; Vines. Ignoring all the rest. On what basis does he make this choice?

Can he prove that Vines got it right and all the others supposedly got it wrong?? No.

The idea of entrusting, or committing has to do with our souls, not our lifestyles.

Now, please don't get the wrong headed idea that I'm pushing for antinomianism. Not at all. The Bible is clear about Christ's law. Which believers are to follow. All the commands in the NT are for all believers. And there are warnings for those who ignore or disobey those laws.

But the conditional security ilk do not understand that disobedience doesn't lead to loss of salvation, but rather loss of blessings, loss of rewards, and facing the hand of discipline from God, who really knows how to spank His children.

 

[EmSw]

In this thread I would like to identify a problem, the wide path, a stumbling block, and most of all a secret of "Faith". Not Faith the noun, which is "pistis" in the original texts. But Faith the verb, "pisteuo" that is what's in the original texts.

Problem, wide path, a stumbling block.
1) When the Greek texts were translated into English, they came to this word "pisteuo" and discovered there was no English word for the verb form of Faith. What they needed to translate "pisteuo" in to English was the words , Faither, Faithing, and to Faithe. But as you know, those words are not in the English vocabulary. So what are they supposed to do? This word "pisteuo" is arguably the most important word in Gods Word. Put yourself in their shoes, what are you going to do, what are your options? Well, they could have lobbied to have the correct words added to the English language I guess, but how long would that take? They were no doubt excvited about getting this first ever English translation out to the public.
They might have said , well, its only one word, lets just find a word that is the closest we can come up with. But to their surprise, this word "pisteuo" is used 248 times in the Gospels alone. This is a huge problem.
For what ever reason, they chose to use the words "believe, believer, and believing." These words aren't what "pisteuo" fully means, but it's at least part of it is correct.

You see the meaning of the word "pisteuo" in the Greek is best defined according to my experiences in the Vines unabridged edition. There it defines "pisteuo" as , "A personal surrender to Him." ( We all know what a surrender is, and what must be surrendered, and who it must be surrendered to.) " And a life inspired by such surrender." ( which means I'm continually surrendering my life to Jesus ). I not only am surrendering my life to Him daily, hourly, and by the minute, i'm filtering every decision I make all day long through that surrender. That is what "pisteuo" is. Much more than belief.

A good understanding of "pisteuo" in English since we don't have the correct word, is what we call the a,b,c's of Faith, the verb. That is: " An action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence." You can see that belief only covers one third of the original meaning. If someone has built their entire understanding on believing in Jesus for Salvation, they have fallen as they hit the stumbling block. They are on the wide path. You know 99.9 percent of the Christian world has built their salvation on this "MISTRANSLATION"

Who is to blame for this? Is it the translators ? They only did the best of what was at their disposal! Is it us? We are only reading and acting on what our Bibles say. " If I "believe" in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ i'm saved. That's what it says! But the truth is, it should say, "If we "Faithe" (pisteuo") in the name of the Lord Jesus Cjhrist ( personally surrendering to Him continually, filtering all of our decision making through that surrender, we will be saved !" Faithing is an action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence.

There is no such word as believe, believing, or believer in the Greek language that I can find. The problem is when it was mistranslated from the Greek to English, the reverse thing happened. If you look at the translation of "belief" in English, and trace it back to the Greek, Yup, it has been mistranslated not only from Greek to English, but from English to Greek. They had to, what else could they have done?

I know this is a really hard pill to swallow, and your first instinct might be to attack the messenger. Please don't! Maybe read through this post 2 or 3 times and just give it a little time to let God draw you. I would like to answer any questions you might have. I won't attack you back.

The "one thing" we as the ones drawn by the Father do not want to do Iron2Iron?
"It's surrendering our life to God" PISTEUO! If we don't, we don't have the Holy Spirit in us. If we don't, Christ is none of ours. And if Christ is not ours, Gods Word is not ours. None of it! So now you can kind of see why I was so adamant about focusing the osas conversation on the once saved part of the osas equation. Rom. 8:9

Using faith as a verb, that is, an action on our part, does little for monergists. I'm guessing they had rather use 'believe', for it keeps them as pacifists.

It reminds me of The Little Red Hen. No one wanted to cooperate with the hen in preparing the bread, but were eager to participate in eating of the bread.

 

[EmSw]

Let's first see what the Greek scholars say about pisteuo:

pisteuō

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

1a) of the thing believed

1a1) to credit, have confidence

1b) in a moral or religious reference

1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which aman is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

2a) to be intrusted with a thing

And faither said this:
"You see the meaning of the word "pisteuo" in the Greek is best defined according to my experiences in the Vines unabridged edition. There it defines "pisteuo" as , "A personal surrender to Him." ( We all know what a surrender is, and what must be surrendered, and who it must be surrendered to.) " And a life inspired by such surrender." ( which means I'm continually surrendering my life to Jesus ). I not only am surrendering my life to Him daily, hourly, and by the minute, i'm filtering every decision I make all day long through that surrender. That is what "pisteuo" is. Much more than belief."

Where did Vines come up with this meaning? How different is his understanding from Strong's, which I posted above? Not that different.

While Vines says "personal surrender", Strong's says believe to be true, persuaded, having confidence in (1, 1a)

Then Strong's speaks of "trust" in 1b2, 2 and 2a.

so, let's examine the meaning of trust, or entrusting. Another words commonly used for entrust is "commit". And like faither, many use the word to mean that we surrender our lives and wills to His. iow, a lifestyle change.

However, this is the definition of "commit":
Commit: 1. to give in charge or trust, deliver for safekeeping 2. to put officially in dustody/confinement 3. to do or perpetrate 4. to pledge, bind, engage 5. to refer a bill, etc to a committee

Let's begin with the first meaning; deliver for safekeeping. What does that mean? It means that we have put our very souls into God's charge FOR SAFEKEEPING. That is salvation. We have entrusted our souls to God for salvation.

This trust does not have anything to do with lifestyle at all. The Scriptures are clear that the commands for obedience and faithfulness are for those who already have believed (entrusted their souls to God for salvation).

That fact immediately refutes all those who believe in conditional security, who claim that one must change their lifestyle in order to be or stay saved. So all effort is placed on the person to meet certain criteria for either salvation or the maintenance of it.

Such thinking divorces one from putting their souls in God's hands for safekeeping. And John 10:28,29 clearly show that those who have believed ARE in God's hands. Safe and secure.

If one thinks they need to change their lifestyle for salvation, they ARE NOT TRUSTING THEIR SOULS TO CHRIST FOR SALVATION.

They are depending on their own efforts to either get or stay saved. Which gets neither.

It is interesting that faither gloms onto just 1 work; Vines. Ignoring all the rest. On what basis does he make this choice?

Can he prove that Vines got it right and all the others supposedly got it wrong?? No.

The idea of entrusting, or committing has to do with our souls, not our lifestyles.

Now, please don't get the wrong headed idea that I'm pushing for antinomianism. Not at all. The Bible is clear about Christ's law. Which believers are to follow. All the commands in the NT are for all believers. And there are warnings for those who ignore or disobey those laws.

But the conditional security ilk do not understand that disobedience doesn't lead to loss of salvation, but rather loss of blessings, loss of rewards, and facing the hand of discipline from God, who really knows how to spank His children.

I like this one -

1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

Why not give a few words of wisdom concerning this definition?

I know you don't like the beliefs of the 'conditional security ilk'. You say disobedience doesn't lead to loss of salvation; I say it doesn't lead to salvation at all. Salvation is for those who obey, as we see in the following passage -

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

 

[-57]

You posted ""If we "Faithe" (pisteuo") in the name of the Lord Jesus Cjhrist ( personally surrendering to Him continually, filtering all of our decision making through that surrender, we will be saved !" Faithing is an action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence."

This makes it sound like you must be pisteuo 24/7 to be saved. Surely you don't mean that???

Somedays I have a bad hair day.....some days a bad faith day.

 

[nobdysfool]

In this thread I would like to identify a problem, the wide path, a stumbling block, and most of all a secret of "Faith". Not Faith the noun, which is "pistis" in the original texts. But Faith the verb, "pisteuo" that is what's in the original texts.

Problem, wide path, a stumbling block.
1) When the Greek texts were translated into English, they came to this word "pisteuo" and discovered there was no English word for the verb form of Faith. What they needed to translate "pisteuo" in to English was the words , Faither, Faithing, and to Faithe. But as you know, those words are not in the English vocabulary. So what are they supposed to do? This word "pisteuo" is arguably the most important word in Gods Word. Put yourself in their shoes, what are you going to do, what are your options? Well, they could have lobbied to have the correct words added to the English language I guess, but how long would that take? They were no doubt excvited about getting this first ever English translation out to the public.
They might have said , well, its only one word, lets just find a word that is the closest we can come up with. But to their surprise, this word "pisteuo" is used 248 times in the Gospels alone. This is a huge problem.
For what ever reason, they chose to use the words "believe, believer, and believing." These words aren't what "pisteuo" fully means, but it's at least part of it is correct.

You see the meaning of the word "pisteuo" in the Greek is best defined according to my experiences in the Vines unabridged edition. There it defines "pisteuo" as , "A personal surrender to Him." ( We all know what a surrender is, and what must be surrendered, and who it must be surrendered to.) " And a life inspired by such surrender." ( which means I'm continually surrendering my life to Jesus ). I not only am surrendering my life to Him daily, hourly, and by the minute, i'm filtering every decision I make all day long through that surrender. That is what "pisteuo" is. Much more than belief.

A good understanding of "pisteuo" in English since we don't have the correct word, is what we call the a,b,c's of Faith, the verb. That is: " An action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence." You can see that belief only covers one third of the original meaning. If someone has built their entire understanding on believing in Jesus for Salvation, they have fallen as they hit the stumbling block. They are on the wide path. You know 99.9 percent of the Christian world has built their salvation on this "MISTRANSLATION"

Who is to blame for this? Is it the translators ? They only did the best of what was at their disposal! Is it us? We are only reading and acting on what our Bibles say. " If I "believe" in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ i'm saved. That's what it says! But the truth is, it should say, "If we "Faithe" (pisteuo") in the name of the Lord Jesus Cjhrist ( personally surrendering to Him continually, filtering all of our decision making through that surrender, we will be saved !" Faithing is an action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence.

There is no such word as believe, believing, or believer in the Greek language that I can find. The problem is when it was mistranslated from the Greek to English, the reverse thing happened. If you look at the translation of "belief" in English, and trace it back to the Greek, Yup, it has been mistranslated not only from Greek to English, but from English to Greek. They had to, what else could they have done?

I know this is a really hard pill to swallow, and your first instinct might be to attack the messenger. Please don't! Maybe read through this post 2 or 3 times and just give it a little time to let God draw you. I would like to answer any questions you might have. I won't attack you back.

The "one thing" we as the ones drawn by the Father do not want to do Iron2Iron?
"It's surrendering our life to God" PISTEUO! If we don't, we don't have the Holy Spirit in us. If we don't, Christ is none of ours. And if Christ is not ours, Gods Word is not ours. None of it! So now you can kind of see why I was so adamant about focusing the osas conversation on the once saved part of the osas equation. Rom. 8:9

So everyone got it wrong, until you stumbled upon the "correct" meaning? You, as the messenger, say you don't want to be attacked. That means you know you will be. And with justifiable reasons, because you think to tell everyone else that they are wrong, and only you are right. We will all be suddenly enlightened, angels will sing, the sky will glow, and 2000 years of teaching and preaching will be suddenly shown to be wrong. And it only took 2000-some years for the "Truth" to be made manifest...How fortunate for us all that you came to be, here and now...

Really? I have a bridge for sale...are you interested?

Faith is a unique word in its meaning, as it, in verb form, starts in a passive way, but true faith, or belief, always produces congruent actions, and therefore is active. Faith, if it has no works, is dead, being alone. There are those who wish to put the cart before the horse, and claim that doing good works produces faith, and saves the one believing, but that is wrong. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. To say it another way, Faith is the reality of things hoped for, and is the surety of their manifestation. That is active faith, the kind that produces results, that empowers good works directed by the Holy Spirit, that shows forth the reality of the unseen, and the surety and reliability of that which is believed.

To relegate "belief" to a second class status, not worthy of being spoken of as a synonym for faith, is ridiculous. You're playing word games, trying to set yourself up as the purveyor of "deeper truth", by knocking down everyone who came before you, and those who you are attempting to persuade with "strange fire".

I'm not buying it.

.

 

[faither]

Let's first see what the Greek scholars say about pisteuo:

pisteuō

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

1a) of the thing believed

1a1) to credit, have confidence

1b) in a moral or religious reference

1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which aman is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

2a) to be intrusted with a thing

And faither said this:
"You see the meaning of the word "pisteuo" in the Greek is best defined according to my experiences in the Vines unabridged edition. There it defines "pisteuo" as , "A personal surrender to Him." ( We all know what a surrender is, and what must be surrendered, and who it must be surrendered to.) " And a life inspired by such surrender." ( which means I'm continually surrendering my life to Jesus ). I not only am surrendering my life to Him daily, hourly, and by the minute, i'm filtering every decision I make all day long through that surrender. That is what "pisteuo" is. Much more than belief."

Where did Vines come up with this meaning? How different is his understanding from Strong's, which I posted above? Not that different.

While Vines says "personal surrender", Strong's says believe to be true, persuaded, having confidence in (1, 1a)

Then Strong's speaks of "trust" in 1b2, 2 and 2a.

so, let's examine the meaning of trust, or entrusting. Another words commonly used for entrust is "commit". And like faither, many use the word to mean that we surrender our lives and wills to His. iow, a lifestyle change.

However, this is the definition of "commit":
Commit: 1. to give in charge or trust, deliver for safekeeping 2. to put officially in dustody/confinement 3. to do or perpetrate 4. to pledge, bind, engage 5. to refer a bill, etc to a committee

Let's begin with the first meaning; deliver for safekeeping. What does that mean? It means that we have put our very souls into God's charge FOR SAFEKEEPING. That is salvation. We have entrusted our souls to God for salvation.

This trust does not have anything to do with lifestyle at all. The Scriptures are clear that the commands for obedience and faithfulness are for those who already have believed (entrusted their souls to God for salvation).

That fact immediately refutes all those who believe in conditional security, who claim that one must change their lifestyle in order to be or stay saved. So all effort is placed on the person to meet certain criteria for either salvation or the maintenance of it.

Such thinking divorces one from putting their souls in God's hands for safekeeping. And John 10:28,29 clearly show that those who have believed ARE in God's hands. Safe and secure.

If one thinks they need to change their lifestyle for salvation, they ARE NOT TRUSTING THEIR SOULS TO CHRIST FOR SALVATION.

They are depending on their own efforts to either get or stay saved. Which gets neither.

It is interesting that faither gloms onto just 1 work; Vines. Ignoring all the rest. On what basis does he make this choice?

Can he prove that Vines got it right and all the others supposedly got it wrong?? No.

The idea of entrusting, or committing has to do with our souls, not our lifestyles.

Now, please don't get the wrong headed idea that I'm pushing for antinomianism. Not at all. The Bible is clear about Christ's law. Which believers are to follow. All the commands in the NT are for all believers. And there are warnings for those who ignore or disobey those laws.

But the conditional security ilk do not understand that disobedience doesn't lead to loss of salvation, but rather loss of blessings, loss of rewards, and facing the hand of discipline from God, who really knows how to spank His children.

Freegrace2, you kind of took a theology and ran with it. Try and just look at my first point . Wll you agree that the English language has no word for the verb form of Faith, meaning pisteuo? That the noun Faith should simply have had the designated endings added to it like ing Faithing, er Faither, and e to Faithe. But could not because they are not English words?

The other point I would address is the one work you applied to me, surrendering. Do you think that surrender is a work? A work has some expectation of something in return associated with it. Surrendering of any sort only has expectations of more surrendering. To be a slave to the one your surrendering to. If we are surrendering to God to get something in return, that is not surrender, that is a vending machine !

I wanted to post my credentials and my teachers credentials, but I'm trying to not evolve me or my teacher so we can focus on the post and only what I'm saying in the post. I'll say this, I'm 57, I have 30 years dedicated to this subject. My instructor had 50 years dedicated to this subject, along with the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican. He was and is a biblical scholars scholar. Dr. of theology at Stanford. etc.

Please lets just discuss the two points I referenced here, thanks

 

[faither]

Using faith as a verb, that is, an action on our part, does little for monergists. I'm guessing they had rather use 'believe', for it keeps them as pacifists.

It reminds me of The Little Red Hen. No one wanted to cooperate with the hen in preparing the bread, but were eager to participate in eating of the bread.

Hey EmSw, This thread is not meant to stick an ism or ist on anyone. Pisteuo, or Faithing is 90% courage, 8 % endurance, and 2% all the rest. Pisteuo or Faithing is an action for sure, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. If we can agree on the meaning of the word,maybe we could talk about its application. But Pisteuo alone as a work to be saved is not the correct definition.

 

[faither]

I like this one -

1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

Why not give a few words of wisdom concerning this definition?

I know you don't like the beliefs of the 'conditional security ilk'. You say disobedience doesn't lead to loss of salvation; I say it doesn't lead to salvation at all. Salvation is for those who obey, as we see in the following passage -

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

I could have quoted the strongs, mine says straight up,"Pisteuo is not just a beief or mental consent."

 

[faither]

You posted ""If we "Faithe" (pisteuo") in the name of the Lord Jesus Cjhrist ( personally surrendering to Him continually, filtering all of our decision making through that surrender, we will be saved !" Faithing is an action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence."

This makes it sound like you must be pisteuo 24/7 to be saved. Surely you don't mean that???

Somedays I have a bad hair day.....some days a bad faith day.

Good question 57, It's not a one time surrender. It is continual. it starts with our surrender to Jesus. Then there is a kind of period like when a white walnut sprig is grafted onto the black walnut trunk. The most important part is the when the sprig is grafting to the tree. Even if people surrender their lives to Christ, they don't usually filter all their daily decisions through that surrender. So that makes that particular surrender nul and void. Maybe this will make more sense. we surrender our lives to Jesus ok, the next day we live our lives like it is still ours. It's not our life anymore! It's supposed to be His now! So if we surrender our life to Him and go on living like it's still ours, the graft doesn't take. Just like the walnut tree. It's not perfection that's happening here, perfecting our surrender our Faithing, our commitment to Him. If we do graft on to Him, Were talking being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, Feeling His presence, having the mind of Christ with the Word of God being ours now. I t will slowly become less of us and more of Him. That feeling is what I want everyone to feel. But you cant surrender to get anything in return, lol. That's the hard part. God knows if we are really surrendering or not. The good news is we can keep trying if we fail, once we are sealed that's it!

Good question 57.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Using faith as a verb, that is, an action on our part, does little for monergists. I'm guessing they had rather use 'believe', for it keeps them as pacifists.

It reminds me of The Little Red Hen. No one wanted to cooperate with the hen in preparing the bread, but were eager to participate in eating of the bread.

No one participates in their salvation by helping God to save them. Christ needs no help. That's why He is called the Savior. Not us.

 

[faither]

So everyone got it wrong, until you stumbled upon the "correct" meaning? You, as the messenger, say you don't want to be attacked. That means you know you will be. And with justifiable reasons, because you think to tell everyone else that they are wrong, and only you are right. We will all be suddenly enlightened, angels will sing, the sky will glow, and 2000 years of teaching and preaching will be suddenly shown to be wrong. And it only took 2000-some years for the "Truth" to be made manifest...How fortunate for us all that you came to be, here and now...

My post to you just vanished.

Really? I have a bridge for sale...are you interested?

Faith is a unique word in its meaning, as it, in verb form, starts in a passive way, but true faith, or belief, always produces congruent actions, and therefore is active. Faith, if it has no works, is dead, being alone. There are those who wish to put the cart before the horse, and claim that doing good works produces faith, and saves the one believing, but that is wrong. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. To say it another way, Faith is the reality of things hoped for, and is the surety of their manifestation. That is active faith, the kind that produces results, that empowers good works directed by the Holy Spirit, that shows forth the reality of the unseen, and the surety and reliability of that which is believed.

I never said anyone is wrong. I said everyone is half right, and a half truth is error, we have one truth throwing darts at the other half of the truth, and here we are. The hard part about trying to explain this is one, I suck as a communicator, no one has to tell me that , my wife has told me that everyday for 29 years. And Gods world is paradoxical and that is another big discussion. So like I asked freegrace, just look at the first point I made, that the verb form of Faith, pisteuo cant be translated into English. Therefore they used the word "believe" 248 times in the Gospels alone. Can you agree with that? That it's a mistranslation?

To relegate "belief" to a second class status, not worthy of being spoken of as a synonym for faith, is ridiculous. You're playing word games, trying to set yourself up as the purveyor of "deeper truth", by knocking down everyone who came before you, and those who you are attempting to persuade with "strange fire".

I'm not buying it.

.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I like this one -

1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

Why not give a few words of wisdom concerning this definition?

The meaning seems clear enough. To believe means to trust in Jesus who is able to obtain our salvation.

I know you don't like the beliefs of the 'conditional security ilk'. You say disobedience doesn't lead to loss of salvation; I say it doesn't lead to salvation at all. Salvation is for those who obey, as we see in the following passage -

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Here's the Greek word for "obey"

hupakouō
1) to listen, to harken

1a) of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)

2) to harken to a command

2a) to obey, be obedient to, submit to

So, what is it that Jesus wants us to be obedient to? His promise of eternal life to those who believe in Him for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You posted ""If we "Faithe" (pisteuo") in the name of the Lord Jesus Cjhrist ( personally surrendering to Him continually, filtering all of our decision making through that surrender, we will be saved !" Faithing is an action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence."

This makes it sound like you must be pisteuo 24/7 to be saved. Surely you don't mean that???

Somedays I have a bad hair day.....some days a bad faith day.

Luke used the aorist tense for pisteuo in Acts 16:31 regarding how to be saved. So it cannot mean that one must "faithe"24/7.

Paul also used the aorist tense in Rom 10:10 for 'believe'.

 

[-57]

Good question 57, It's not a one time surrender. It is continual. it starts with our surrender to Jesus. Then there is a kind of period like when a white walnut sprig is grafted onto the black walnut trunk. The most important part is the when the sprig is grafting to the tree. Even if people surrender their lives to Christ, they don't usually filter all their daily decisions through that surrender. So that makes that particular surrender nul and void. Maybe this will make more sense. we surrender our lives to Jesus ok, the next day we live our lives like it is still ours. It's not our life anymore! It's supposed to be His now! So if we surrender our life to Him and go on living like it's still ours, the graft doesn't take. Just like the walnut tree. It's not perfection that's happening here, perfecting our surrender our Faithing, our commitment to Him. If we do graft on to Him, Were talking being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, Feeling His presence, having the mind of Christ with the Word of God being ours now. I t will slowly become less of us and more of Him. That feeling is what I want everyone to feel. But you cant surrender to get anything in return, lol. That's the hard part. God knows if we are really surrendering or not. The good news is we can keep trying if we fail, once we are sealed that's it!

Good question 57.

And here folks is another WORKS based religion. Just a little different.

All you gotta do is...surrender....

I have no problem with the concept of surrendering to Christ...but what faither does with it is nonsense.

Off course there is a contradiction in fathers writing. Here sfaither ays "Even if people surrender their lives to Christ, they don't usually filter all their daily decisions through that surrender. So that makes that particular surrender nul and void.".....in other words...BUZZZZ NOT SAVED.

But then again faither contradics himself and creates an out for his sin with ...."Were talking being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, Feeling His presence, having the mind of Christ with the Word of God being ours now. It will slowly become less of us and more of Him."

Its called sanctification....you know, where they they don't filter all their daily decisions through that "surrender"...yet..when they filter more and more of their daily decisions they slowly become less of themselves and more of Him.

faither, is there a quota of filtering decesions through Christ...a level...that we must reach to become saved?

...Is that what you telling us? Considering you've dedicated yourself to 30 years on this topic one would think you could make it a bit more clearer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Freegrace2, you kind of took a theology and ran with it.

No, I took the verb and ran with it.

Try and just look at my first point . Wll you agree that the English language has no word for the verb form of Faith, meaning pisteuo?

No, I totally disagree with that. I too have consulted Greek lexicons. I know what the word means.

That the noun Faith should simply have had the designated endings added to it like ing Faithing, er Faither, and e to Faithe. But could not because they are not English words?

There is nothing wrong with 'believe'. Or trust, or have confidence in.

Actually, to "faithe" has no meaning in the English. So you ideas are backward.

The other point I would address is the one work you applied to me, surrendering. Do you think that surrender is a work?

Depends on what you mean by it. If one means to surrender their soul to the safekeeping of another, then no, that is not a work.

But if one means to surrender one's physical life on this earth, then, yes, that is a work.

A work has some expectation of something in return associated with it.

Yep. Like earning something, or deserving something. But believing in the promise of God is not a work. It's by grace, which eliminates any idea of earning or deserving.

I wanted to post my credentials and my teachers credentials, but I'm trying to not evolve me or my teacher so we can focus on the post and only what I'm saying in the post. I'll say this, I'm 57, I have 30 years dedicated to this subject. My instructor had 50 years dedicated to this subject, along with the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican. He was and is a biblical scholars scholar. Dr. of theology at Stanford. etc.

Are there any evangelicals at Stanford?

People can have extensive pedigrees, many degrees after their name, spent decades in research, and still be on the wrong side of history. So, none of your credentials in and of themselves mean much.

What does have meaning is what actual Greek words mean.

To surrender as you and most use it today deals with surrendering one's physical life here on earth. But salvation isn't about here on earth. It's about eternity.

So biblical surrender deals with turning over your eternal soul for eternal salvation. iow, entrusting your soul to Christ for safekeeping.

According to your views, that is contrary to your views. Which is why i reject your views.

I'm sticking with entrusting my soul to Christ for safekeeping. Nothing else will do.

 

[faither]

No one participates in their salvation by helping God to save them. Christ needs no help. That's why He is called the Savior. Not us.

Luke used the aorist tense for pisteuo in Acts 16:31 regarding how to be saved. So it cannot mean that one must "faithe"24/7.

Paul also used the aorist tense in Rom 10:10 for 'believe'.

And here folks is another WORKS based religion. Just a little different.

All you gotta do is...surrender....

I have no problem with the concept of surrendering to Christ...but what faither does with it is nonsense.

Off course there is a contradiction in fathers writing. Here sfaither ays "Even if people surrender their lives to Christ, they don't usually filter all their daily decisions through that surrender. So that makes that particular surrender nul and void.".....in other words...BUZZZZ NOT SAVED.

But then again faither contradics himself and creates an out for his sin with ...."Were talking being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, Feeling His presence, having the mind of Christ with the Word of God being ours now. It will slowly become less of us and more of Him."

Its called sanctification....you know, where they they don't filter all their daily decisions through that "surrender"...yet..when they filter more and more of their daily decisions they slowly become less of themselves and more of Him.

faither, is there a quota of filtering decesions through Christ...a level...that we must reach to become saved?

...Is that what you telling us? Considering you've dedicated yourself to 30 years on this topic one would think you could make it a bit more clearer.

Ya, it's complicated and very easy at the same time. That's what a paradox is. Gods world is a paradox for our limited understandings. I'm asking if you accept the fact that pisteuo was mistranslated by using the word believe? If the translators would have had a verb available to them by adding the appropriate endings like every other noun and verb? Fasith=Faithing, Faith=Faither, Faith= to Faithe. Do you agree?

 

[-57]

Ya, it's complicated and very easy at the same time. That's what a paradox is. Gods world is a paradox for our limited understandings. I'm asking if you accept the fact that pisteuo was mistranslated by using the word believe? If the translators would have had a verb available to them by adding the appropriate endings like every other noun and verb? Fasith=Faithing, Faith=Faither, Faith= to Faithe. Do you agree?

faither, did you have any verse in mind that used the word "faith"

 

[faither]

No, I took the verb and ran with it.


No, I totally disagree with that. I too have consulted Greek lexicons. I know what the word means.


There is nothing wrong with 'believe'. Or trust, or have confidence in.

Actually, to "faithe" has no meaning in the English. So you ideas are backward.


Depends on what you mean by it. If one means to surrender their soul to the safekeeping of another, then no, that is not a work.

But if one means to surrender one's physical life on this earth, then, yes, that is a work.


Yep. Like earning something, or deserving something. But believing in the promise of God is not a work. It's by grace, which eliminates any idea of earning or deserving.


Are there any evangelicals at Stanford?

People can have extensive pedigrees, many degrees after their name, spent decades in research, and still be on the wrong side of history. So, none of your credentials in and of themselves mean much.

What does have meaning is what actual Greek words mean.

To surrender as you and most use it today deals with surrendering one's physical life here on earth. But salvation isn't about here on earth. It's about eternity.

So biblical surrender deals with turning over your eternal soul for eternal salvation. iow, entrusting your soul to Christ for safekeeping.

According to your views, that is contrary to your views. Which is why i reject your views.

I'm sticking with entrusting my soul to Christ for safekeeping. Nothing else will do.

No problem freegrace, but just so you know, I've never found anyone that agrees or understand what i'm trying to warn you about. Just look at my likes, 1600 posts 8 likes 5 in the last week. There are no others that define Faith as I do. If your out there, please tell me.

 

[faither]

faither, did you have any verse in mind that used the word "faith"

Yes, that's the point. Every time you see the words believe , believer, and believing, in the scriptures, it's a mistranslation. Those words are used 248 times in the Gospels alone, so take your pick. Whenever you see one of those b words, just put the Vines Greek dictionary in its place. " A personal surrender to Him, and I life inspired by such surrender."

Example;
God so loved the world , that He gave His only begotten Son. So that who may " surrender their lives to Christ, and live a life inspired of such surrender may have eternal life." I took out the mistranslated word, "believe" and put in the original Greek meaning. You can do that with over 250 words that use the verb form of Faith, 4100 in the strongs. There could be one or two out of those scriptures that fashion the sentence to accommodate the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing.