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The Scriptures in a Nutshell

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Shimon, Dec 3, 2002.

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  1. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
    +3
    The Torah IS the “Marriage Covenant.” If one rejects the Torah, then they reject the “marriage” and ultimately reject the Groom: Yeshua.

    When God re-established the Torah with the children of Israel on Mount Sinai, He stated:

    Right there, those are our choices. That is our “free will:” to choose “life and good” by following His commandments, or “death and evil” by disobeying His commandments.

    The nation of Israel chose to disobey His commandments, and were therefore “unfaithful to the Marriage Covenant.” Israel became an adulteress for its refusal to be faithful. This is why God described Israel as an “adulteress:” she was unfaithful to the “Marriage Covenant.”

    In Jeremiah 31:32, God says that He was “a husband unto them:”

    Throughout the scriptures, God always refers to the disobedient people as “prostitutes,” “harlots,” and “adulteresses:”

     
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  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,442
    Messianic
    Bumped before it gets archived
     
  3. GeratTzedek

    GeratTzedek Meaning Righteous Proselyte to Judaism

    +306
    Judaism
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    I'm not sure why you are here. Messianic Judaism does not support the bashing of gentile churches. Messianic Judaism does not accept supersessionism -- the idea that gentile believers are Israel in any way shape or form including simply by being believers. We believe that Ekklesia is grafted onto Israel and that Ekklesia is the People of God. But only Jews have a right to be called Israel. You are entitled to your opinion. But if you want to ARGUE it, it is more appropriate in the debate sub-forum, don't you think?

    "Because Israel had been an unfaithful bride, God declared that He would divorce her and have no more mercy for her. He would scatter the Israelites among the nations." <-- UNADULTERATED SUPERSESSIONISM
     
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,442
    Messianic
    ?????? where do you get this idea... let me quote a portion specific to what you have brought up so that you can read it again.

     
  5. GeratTzedek

    GeratTzedek Meaning Righteous Proselyte to Judaism

    +306
    Judaism
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    Read his entire post in context. He is saying Israel disobeyed and God wants to divorce them. He blames the diaspora on Israel's disobedience. Now believers are Israel as well. He can phrase it any way he wants. It's a form of replacement theology.

    This is EXACTLY the sort of post we were discussing. Not only does it bash gentile churches. It ALSO supports a theology that grates against MJ and angers all Jews -- whether they believe in Yeshua or not.

    And I thought we were making progress, you and I....
    sigh*

    While the main forum is not the Orthodox MJ Fellowhship subforum, this quote should help clarify replacement theology (I bolded the variety used by shimon):

     
  6. RebbeCohen

    RebbeCohen Junior Member

    31
    +5
    Messianic
    Single
    I am not even sure where to begin with this Chazzerei; so bear with me.

    The shear Chutzpah of this post has my kishkas in an uproar.

    There is no church? the church is the body of believers. the word church usually refers to a group of gentile believers; as Jews we use congregation or shul.

    The Torah is not the marriage covenant. it is the LAW; the rules by which we live. In reality Torah means teaching, but it is accepted as meaning law in this particular case.

    What this person is espousing is a mad congleration of replacement theology and two house theology. Until now I had thought they were mutually exclusive; but this individual has managed to make it work. Unfortunately this idea and the two that it stems from are both heresy and typical anti-Semitic thought. No Jew would be interested in such things. Both of these heresies are strictly of gentile origin.

    Replacement theology states that the 12 tribes are no longer Israel and the gentile church are now the new and improved Israel. We in the south usually use this kind of thinking to Fertilize the south forty. Two house theology is even worse if that is possible. It states that a gentile can be a Jew if they feel that they are part of the lost tribes. This is blatant nonesense since for one the lost tribes are not lost. We know where they are; they are dispersed around the world from the diaspora. And since when does how we feel make something so? what chutzpah, to think yo are a Jew because you feel like it? If you want to become a Jew, convert, don't claim there is no church, or that there are no gentiles, or no Jews or whatever it is that you are trying to espouse.

    Gentiles are not Jews; they cannot become Jews except by converion. Being grafted in means into the promises of Messiah, i.e. salvation not adoption into the twelve tribes.

    Personally i will never understand why anyone woud want to be a Jew that isnt one already. Even though I am proud to be Jewish (a Levite and a Kohain actually) it isn't for everyone.


    The replacement part of this post is the: there is no church part. The poster is trying to say that only Jews are believers. It is a backhanded way of introducing the idea that Israel is no longer His Chosen or that someone else is now Israel. (at least I read it that way)

    The rest of this post is pure two house theology


     
  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,442
    Messianic
    I re- read the article looking for those things you saw in it.

    I did not see replacement mainly because there was no mention of churches, and the focus stayed on the relationship of HaShem with Israel.

    It is not the first time I have heard the Torah is the marriage covenant. Didn't know that was not so.
    Regarding the divorce... God brought that up..

    Not the favorite part of scripture, sad day for all, a sad spot in history, but God is merciful and full of grace, and promises to restore Israel to her rightful place.
     
  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,442
    Messianic
    Adam and Eve in the garden, perfect in every way. Eve committed idoltry when she listened to that snake and believed him. If Adam had not sacrificed his life for her by taking a bite out of that apple, he would not suffered the consequence of sin with her.

    We have the marriage of God with Israel in the marriage covenant and low and behold Israel does have a scarlet record in that relationship.

    Yeshua comes and without sin dies for her.
    Now we look forward to the wedding supper.
     
  9. Hadassah

    Hadassah Well-Known Member

    +344
    Germany
    Messianic
    Married
    LOL, am I the only one who spent all day and JUST noticed this...

    the OP was posted 3rd December 2002, 09:14 PM

    :D
    I thought we weren't supposed to be bumping stuff older than one year due to this confusion? :D
     
  10. stone

    stone Senior Contributor Supporter

    +427
    Catholic
    Married
    you will be my people and i will be your g-d

    :thumbsup:
     
  11. stone

    stone Senior Contributor Supporter

    +427
    Catholic
    Married
    scriptures in a nutshell? Ha!
     
  12. GeratTzedek

    GeratTzedek Meaning Righteous Proselyte to Judaism

    +306
    Judaism
    Single
    US-Others
    visionary: the post says:
    Again, there is no "church." There is no "replacement" of Israel. The "church" IS Israel, That is the most extreme supersessionist statement I've ever seen.

    In addition to supersessionism, he also bashes gentile churches, calling the church a harlot:
    Torah is a covenant. Marriage is a covenant. They are not the same, but because they are both covenants, they are so very similar. This is why the marriage metaphors are so common and so appropriate. I have no problem with people saying Israel is the Bride of HaShem or the Church is the Bride of Christ or any of that. Figurative speech brings great depth and understanding. It only starts getting weird when they get literal about it, as if G-d is actually married.

    I can't do this now, because shabbat is fast approaching, but next week I'll try to upload a thread about how Israel is G-d's covenant people forever, based on the totality of scripture. One can't take a single scripture and post it out of context.
     
  13. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    +407
    Judaism
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    lol, exactly.
     
  14. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,442
    Messianic
    Sorry that this thread subject cuts the line to close for comfort. I am closing it.
     
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,442
    Messianic
    .
     
  16. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,442
    Messianic
    Closed for staff review.
     
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