The Scriptures and Authority

StTherese said:

Well, I would think that those who believe the scriptures to be the authority would certaintly have gotten this doctrine from their source of authority...the Bible....so I was looking for the scripture references....

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One would think so . Yet , I , of the five or six doctrines on the Scriptures , they are all either self -contradictory or they contradict each other . That is , if the passages presented dont' say anything near what they claim and spend several pages of *reasoning* ( not Scripture passages ) to "prove their doctrines . Scripture only should be used and say exactly what they claim .

DeaconDean said:

God said in Deut. 8:3:

"...man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."

A fact further illustrated by Jesus Christ:

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." -Mt. 4:4 (KJV)

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Not even discussing the Scriptures - let alone authority . It certainly could not mean the Scriptures because it is taling about something He is saying every day - not reading something He said many years ago . The Scriptures *may* be regarded as being a record of what *did* proceed from His mouth . They are *not* what *is* proceeding from His mouth .

We look at what Paul said to Timothy:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God," -2 Tim. 3:16 (KJV)

In the Greek, the word "inspired" is "qeopneustoV" and according to The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962. Copyright 1990, p. 201, qeopneustiV means:

"divinely inspired, lit. God-Breathed"

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If so , why don't you use a translation that accurately interpreted the word ? If the translators had that word wrong , they could have made hundreds or thousands of incorrect interpretations . Either way , authority is not mentioned .

Also , when Paul wrote that , he only considered the Law and the Prophets to be the Scriptures . Yet , even though the context is about the Law and the Prophets and people *say* it is about authority of the Scriptures , the majority that agree with the doctrine say that the Law is not to be followed . That is a rejection of the doctrine and it certainly throws out the passage used because it states *all* Scripture .

The scriptures literally are, the word of God. Both Jesus and God Himself tell us that we are to live by His words alone.

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Scriptures are plural - the term "word of God" is singular . That doesn't fit . "God breathed" does not mean "word" . Also , the Scriptures use the term "word of God" for many different words . The term is is used in the newer writings ( what many call "New Testament" ) exclusively or almost exclusively to the Gospel - not any writings .

Not some man's word, but His word. And that is the Bible.

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Where is "bible" in the "bible" ? Meaning "all of Scriptures" collected ?

Ergo, the word, scriptures, are the word of God and our authority.

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Yet , you had to use passages that were not related and none of which had authority and then rip them apart and present reasoning to come to the conclusion . Why was there not simply a list of passages from the "Scriptures only" that were clear and presented the doctrine accurately ? Why were the Scriptures not good enough that the Baptists thought to say that their translation being used was not good enough in itself but had to go by an alternative phrasing ?

It is contradictory to use anything but the Scriptures to prove the Scriptures Only doctrine . The passages whould be clear or they violate the doctrine that the Scriptures interpret themselves and are clear enough .

God wasn't the only inspiration for canonization.

StTherese said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Alec

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Too funny. XD On topic, I don't see the failings of sola scriptura. (Then again, I be a dumb "kid"..)

Christian subjects of the emperor were causing civil strife between their competing sects, so much so that government troops had to be sent in to keep order.
It was Constantine's imperative as a civil authority to pressure this new religion into defining itself in a way as to enable it to police itself.
Ireneaus was himself on his way to Rome to face charges of inciting conflict when he wrote his letters to the churches for support.
Constantine provided support for the Council(s) he insisted on, it being the State's interest to enjoy the civil peace undisturbed by sectarian violence.

Ishida said:

Too funny. XD On topic, I don't see the failings of sola scriptura. (Then again, I be a dumb "kid"..)

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There's absolutely nothing wrong with bringing the scriptures to bear when interpreting the scriptures. It would be foolish not to. The writers of each generation were very heavily influenced by the writings that came before.

But the scriptures weren't written in a vacuum. They grew up out of the totality of the human experience. To treat them as if they were somehow conceived in a hermetically sealed environment is to rob them of their potential richness.

I have a degree from a Christian College that taught according to sola scriptura (not that we were ever taught that term). I started doing apologetics a couple of years ago. I thought my degree had prepared me. I soon realized that I had to be at least minimally conversant on a wide range of topics to even begin. It was daunting. After all the studying I've done in that two years, I am more convinced than ever of my ignorance and unworthiness.

No less the study of scripture.

Why even bother asking this question? The only reason you ask is to get something started. Everyone knows the Catholics aren't allowed to interpret anything themselves. They must rely on the Pope and all the high ranking officials in the CC. Or are you thinking of leaving the CC and want to know how Christians interpret the Bible? It is done by asking the Holy Spirit to give us guidance and we ask for understanding. We don't have one person telling us what we can and can't believe.

StTherese said:

....why not trust that God can preserve the ONE message in which it contains?

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I do trust He can do this...that's why He gave me revelation by the Holy Spirit, and an assurance that His Grace will suffice.

StTherese said:

Unity can not be found with personal interpretations....just look at the 1000s of different denominations who all claim to be right!

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Yeah...go figure. And what's the one thing almost all of these denominations have in common? A lack of trust in the fullness of God's grace.


Grace which did this for us...


-"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

-"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

-"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life."


Grace which did this to us...


-"I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."

-"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

-"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."


And Grace which will do this with us...


- "I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."

- "I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."

- "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from Ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'"


...and the more and more people start to realize the true gospel of Christianity (...thank God for the information revolution), and realise that their denominational expectations just don't measure up anymore to the fullness of Jesus in succesful Christian living, the more they'll just come rushing to the truth (which will only give them life).

We're living in exciting times sister...believe it. Gone are the days of man excercising unwarranted earthly power and preaching false gospel under the name of the "church".

We're slowly wising up to the lies of satan (Ha! Ha! Loser!) that have permeated Christianity for centuries, and that trickle out of the indwelling sin of Adam we still carry around. Lies that leave people inclined to think that they can't live in full trust in God (which is what Adam fell for), and that they need to make themselves presentable to God (which is what Adam began to do). Instead though, more and more Christians today are choosing to walk in the truth of God's word (of our righteousness, acceptance, and completeness in Him), and denouncing the lie...and are in turn experiencing the fruits of faithful living in grace more than ever before.

Yep!


Peace.

ticker said:

I do trust He can do this...that's why He gave me revelation by the Holy Spirit, and an assurance that His Grace will suffice.

Yeah...go figure. And what's the one thing almost all of these denominations have in common? A lack of trust in the fullness of God's grace.


Grace which did this for us...


-"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

-"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

-"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life."


Grace which did this to us...


-"I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."

-"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

-"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."


And Grace which will do this with us...


- "I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."

- "I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."

- "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from Ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'"


...and the more and more people start to realize the true gospel of Christianity (...thank God for the information revolution), and realise that their denominational expectations just don't measure up anymore to the fullness of Jesus in succesful Christian living, the more they'll just come rushing to the truth (which will only give them life).

We're living in exciting times sister...believe it. Gone are the days of man excercising unwarranted earthly power and preaching false gospel under the name of the "church".

We're slowly wising up to the lies of satan (Ha! Ha! Loser!) that have permeated Christianity for centuries, and that trickle out of the indwelling sin of Adam we still carry around. Lies that leave people inclined to think that they can't live in full trust in God (which is what Adam fell for), and that they need to make themselves presentable to God (which is what Adam began to do). Instead though, more and more Christians today are choosing to walk in the truth of God's word (of our righteousness, acceptance, and completeness in Him), and denouncing the lie...and are in turn experiencing the fruits of faithful living in grace more than ever before.

Yep!


Peace.

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warriorforJesus said:

Why even bother asking this question? The only reason you ask is to get something started. Everyone knows the Catholics aren't allowed to interpret anything themselves. They must rely on the Pope and all the high ranking officials in the CC.

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Odd. I haven't run into any Catholics who seem to be aware of this.

Apostolic Fathers alays used scripture against heresy.
When they referred to "tradition" often they referred to scripture itself! The Bible calls scripture "tradition" in 2 Thess 2:15.
Athanasius calls scripture tradition: "the Apostolic tradition teaches in the words of blessed Peter, 'Forasmuch then as Christ suffered for us in the Flesh" Athanasius then quotes: 1 Peter 4:1; Titus 2:13; Heb 2:1 (Athanasius, To Adelphius, Letter 60, 6)

The ECF believed in 5 kinds of tradition 1. Scriptures themselves as being apostolic tradition. 2. Inspired oral tradition that came from the apostles & prophets that, never differs from, or adds to scripture, but expresses the same thoughts. 3. Expedient man-made tradition that is optional and not a matter of faith, since the apostles were silent about such matter. These include giving a person a cup of milk mixed with honey immediately following baptism and then not bathing for a week. (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4) This 3rd category of tradition is spoken of as not recorded in scripture, but not followed today. 4. "Rule of faith" tradition were short uninspired summaries of the faith based upon the inspired written and oral traditions of the apostles and prophets. These would have the same type of origin, as a sermon outline based upon the scripture. 5. False doctrine like that of the Gnostics.
Everyone must interpret scripture!

"Ignorance of prophetic diction and unskillfulness in interpreting Scripture[FONT=Times,Times New Roman] has led them into a perversion of the point and meaning of the passage." (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, Book 1, 35)

Hilary expected the heretics to be able to understand the scriptures correctly! An RC or Orthodox would say, "It is impossible for them to understand the scriptures because only the church can correctly interpret the Bible"![/FONT]

"In order to solve as easily as possible this most difficult problem, we must first master the knowledge which the Divine Scriptures give of Father and of Son, that so we may speak with more precision, as dealing with familiar and accustomed matters." (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, Book 3, 2)

Hilary shows individual skill can make a difference in properly understanding the Bible whether you are in the church or a heretic! His solution to the Arian controversy was in the scripture, not the Nicene creed.

"Yet it is well for us to know all that has been revealed upon the subject, for though we are not responsible for the words of Scripture, yet we shall have to render an account for the sense we have assigned to them[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]." (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, Book 4, 19)

If the church is the infallible interpreter of Scripture as directed by the Holy Spirit, why would Hilary worry about the interpretation? Hilary concludes each individual is responsible for the way they interpret scripture.[/FONT]

No, not quite Rick.

Otto said:

Apostolic Fathers alays used scripture against heresy.......

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Hey Rick, if your gonna cherry-pick info. from someones web-site and use it as your own, you should at least site the source and give them credit


http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-apostolic-fathers-hilary.htm


Any way lots of swiss cheese here


Q

Originally Posted by warriorforJesus

Why even bother asking this question? The only reason you ask is to get something started. Everyone knows the Catholics aren't allowed to interpret anything themselves. They must rely on the Pope and all the high ranking officials in the CC.

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InkBlott said:

Odd. I haven't run into any Catholics who seem to be aware of this.

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Probably because they have the Catholic Catechism to help interpret the Bible and who wrote that?.

John 5:45 `No be supposing that I shall be accusing/kathgorhsw <2723> (5692) of-ye toward the Father; is the one accusing/kathgorwn <2723> (5723) of-ye, Moses--into whom ye have hoped;

Reve 12:10 And I hear great sound saying in the Heaven: "Now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him, that was cast The Accuser/kathgoroV <2725> of the brothers of us, the accusing/kathgorwn <2723> (5723) them in sight of the God of us, of day and of night.

DeaconDean said:

God said in Deut. 8:3:

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DeaconDean said:

"...man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."

A fact further illustrated by Jesus Christ:

"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." -Mt. 4:4 (KJV)

We look at what Paul said to Timothy:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God," -2 Tim. 3:16 (KJV)

In the Greek, the word "inspired" is "qeopneustoV" and according to The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962. Copyright 1990, p. 201, qeopneustiV means:

"divinely inspired, lit. God-Breathed"

The scriptures literally are, the word of God. Both Jesus and God Himself tell us that we are to live by His words alone.

Not some man's word, but His word. And that is the Bible.

Ergo, the word, scriptures, are the word of God and our authority.

That is this Baptists view.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Then there's this:

1 Tim 3:14; These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

1 Tim 3:15; But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Or

Acts 15:23; And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Acts 15:24; Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:

Acts 15:25; It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Acts 15:26; We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.

We all know that as a rule, teaching is done orally--especially since before the age of "online college degrees." However, what do teachers teach orally? Is everyone really suggesting that all twelve of the apostles never once referred to written notes, that everything they taught they taught strictly from memory? They prepared no sermons? What about the earliest Post-apostolic teachers? Was their source strickly what had been passed down by word-of-mouth only?

Teachers/professors lecture and teach orally even today. But, they teach from "text books." They take what they have written in the text book and expound upon it, explain it, put it in terms that the students can comprehend. Some students will catch on much faster than others. Some students really struggle. But, teachers don't just get up in front of the class and start talking saying what ever comes to mind.

The Bible is God's text book. Does that mean that people who adhere to Sola Scriptura believe that just any ole body can pick it up and read it and completely understand it with not instruction or no help? Nope. That's why we all go to church, maybe not your church, but our churches.

As to the authority question? Let me ask you St. Therese, do you obey stop signs because they say, "Stop! In the name of the law?" Do speed limit signs and other traffic signs require specification as to what their authorities are, or is the "authority" behind the sign a given, therefore you obey the sign?

It is a known fact to all Christians that The Bible is the Inspired words of God. Scripture even says this, that's why would look to the instructions given within The Bible as our instructions on conducting ourselves as Christians. What isn't explicitly written out, is shown by example of how Christians during the era of Christ and His apostles conducted themselves.

StTherese said:

I asked this in another thread numerous times, but have yet to get an answer....

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StTherese said:

Where in the scriptures does it say that the scriptures are the authority for Christians and where does it say that all scripture interprets scripture????

Also, those who believe the Bible to be the authority, how do you explain the fact that people can interpret them differently and can be lead into error?

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Therese,

I'm sure you have encountered people who do not do a very good job at articulating what Sola Scriptura exactly means and probably just as many who just have their own idea of what it means and explain it in such terms. Nobody is saying each and every explanation or interpretation is correct.

Those who have a "decent" understanding of Sola Scriptura, believe in the sufficiency of Scripture regarding salvation--whether it be told by someone instructing others from the Bible or from reading it for ourselves. It does not address everything that Jesus said and did, but it does addresses those thing which are pertinent to our salvation. Does it say, "This very book you are reading is the authority of Christianity, and all that is needed to know to get to heaven is contain therein?" No. Because, God being . . . well, um . . . God-------didn't think He needed to spell it out so explicitly.



Anyhow, I'll be the first to say that you won't find the specific words you're looking for in Scripture, but I can show you a father or two who come just about as close as you will ever see. From Augustine: