The Scripture or Experience ?

[Tobias]

You're not really thinking that's where sola scriptura came from are you?

No, that is what I was trying to correct from my previous post.

Sola Scriptura came from Martin Luther, I believe. It was only one of the five "solas", which were meant to be taken together as a package (I believe). How and when it became the only one, I do not know!

 

[Optimax]

What about dolphins, germs, nuclear power, medicines that doddle up the brain, certain parts of Heaven (that aren't described in Scripture), and the fact that John said there wouldn't be enough books in the world to contain all that Jesus did? (bet certain humans aren't so keen on that verse!)

We do not know what those thing are as they were not written.

That amounts to speculation.

 

[Faulty]

No, that is what I was trying to correct from my previous post.

Sola Scriptura came from Martin Luther, I believe. It was only one of the five "solas", which were meant to be taken together as a package (I believe). How and when it became the only one, I do not know!

Good, because it was sounding to me like you were making that claim. I appreciate the clarification.

Sola scriptura seems to take center stage because there are so many attacks on th Bible as people are constantly trying to add things to it, or take things away from it, which is very dangerous for them to do as we are warned no less than 5 time not to do such things:

Deut 4:2
Deut 12:32
Proverbs 30:5-6
Galatians 1:6-12
Revelation 22:18-19

But if people have no reverence for the scripture already, then what good are the warnings to them other than to witness against them on their day of judgment.

IMHO, sola fida (justification by faith alone) is also under constant attack. Whenever you see such claims, as even frequented on this forum, as the gain or maintenance through our keeping of the Law by not sinning as acts to ensure our justification, that is an attack on sola fida.

 

[Faulty]

What about dolphins, germs, nuclear power, medicines that doddle up the brain, certain parts of Heaven (that aren't described in Scripture), and the fact that John said there wouldn't be enough books in the world to contain all that Jesus did? (bet certain humans aren't so keen on that verse!)

Those are catagory errors. The concept of sola scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture.

Nor does sola scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

Besides, John never said there wouldn't be enough room in the world to contain the books if everything Jesus had done was written. He said "I suppose". It's called exageration.

 

[AudioArtist]

Those are catagory errors. The concept of sola scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture.

Nor does sola scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

Besides, John never said there wouldn't be enough room in the world to contain the books if everything Jesus had done was written. He said "I suppose". It's called exageration.

I was being a bit silly, but thanks for the clarification anyway. I had actually forgotten that's what it exactly meant.

 

[Mixolydian]

Like the old saying goes, “a man with an experience of God is never at the mercy of a man with an argument about God."

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Those are catagory errors. The concept of sola scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture.

if only more sola scripturists would believe that .

 

[probinson]

Experience should always line up with scripture, not the other way around.

I get what you're saying. But no one has addressed my first example.

I assume since this is the Charismatic, Spirit-Filled forum, we can safely assume that we all believe that the Holy Spirit actively speaks to us and leads us. How then does one "line up" such things with scripture? To repeat the example, let's say you're out shopping, and God speaks to you and tells you to minister to the guy in front of you at the checkout lane. How does one "line up" with scripture that specific instruction or "experience"?

Or let's say that you see a person who is struggling financially that you want to help, but God tells you not to help that individual, because you'd only be enabling their problems.

These are the kinds of "instructions" and "training" that you simply will not find in scripture. There is no way to verify what to do in individual circumstances such as these apart from the learning to listen to and heed the voice of God. The answer to "Should I help or shouldn't I?" isn't one found in scripture. The instruction to "Minister to that guy in the blue jacket" isn't found in scripture either.

That's why I said the premise being put forth, that only scripture is profitable for instruction and teaching is an imbalanced teaching that reduces God to words on a page instead of an ALIVE God that is constantly speaking to us, instructing us, and leading us in all things.

 

[Optimax]

I get what you're saying. But no one has addressed my first example.

I assume since this is the Charismatic, Spirit-Filled forum, we can safely assume that we all believe that the Holy Spirit actively speaks to us and leads us. How then does one "line up" such things with scripture? To repeat the example, let's say you're out shopping, and God speaks to you and tells you to minister to the guy in front of you at the checkout lane. How does one "line up" with scripture that specific instruction or "experience"?

Then perhaps the first scripture that would confirm that is
Matt 28:18-20
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV



Or let's say that you see a person who is struggling financially that you want to help, but God tells you not to help that individual, because you'd only be enabling their problems.

2 Thess 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work , neither should he eat .
KJV


These are the kinds of "instructions" and "training" that you simply will not find in scripture. There is no way to verify what to do in individual circumstances such as these apart from the learning to listen to and heed the voice of God. The answer to "Should I help or shouldn't I?" isn't one found in scripture. The instruction to "Minister to that guy in the blue jacket" isn't found in scripture either.

That's why I said the premise being put forth, that only scripture is profitable for instruction and teaching is an imbalanced teaching that reduces God to words on a page instead of an ALIVE God that is constantly speaking to us, instructing us, and leading us in all things.

Some of see those things in scripture as above.

I do agree as I have said before that there are things that the black and white do not cover specifically.

However, if one has the "black and white(red if u insist) in their heart(innermost being) then out of the abundance of the heart the mouth will speak.

Either way the source of our decisions are based from scripture from whence the wisdom of God is given to us.

 

[probinson]

Some of see those things in scripture as above.

Yes, those are scriptural principles, but they don't instruct us on how to respond to specific situations.

For example, the scripture that you posted above which says that if a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat is very true. But scripture also commands us to feed the poor.

Here's what you're not going to find in scripture; the instruction and leading of the Holy Spirit on how to respond to a specific situation where a person is struggling. A scriptural case can be made to both feed the poor and to realize that if a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat. So when confronted with a specific situation where someone is hungry, what should we do? The Holy Spirit may instruct us to do something, or that voice may instruct us to back off. In any event, my point is the answer to that specific situation is not found in scripture, and no confirmation of what we do is found there either. It is found only in listening to, and being instructed and trained by, that still, small voice.

 

[Yitzchak]

Those are catagory errors. The concept of sola scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture.

Nor does sola scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

I Agree. Good post.

 

[Yitzchak]

Yes, those are scriptural principles, but they don't instruct us on how to respond to specific situations.

For example, the scripture that you posted above which says that if a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat is very true. But scripture also commands us to feed the poor.

Here's what you're not going to find in scripture; the instruction and leading of the Holy Spirit on how to respond to a specific situation where a person is struggling. A scriptural case can be made to both feed the poor and to realize that if a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat. So when confronted with a specific situation where someone is hungry, what should we do? The Holy Spirit may instruct us to do something, or that voice may instruct us to back off. In any event, my point is the answer to that specific situation is not found in scripture, and no confirmation of what we do is found there either. It is found only in listening to, and being instructed and trained by, that still, small voice.

This passage comes to mind.

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6 A time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.

A farmer that plants out of season , as in the middle of the winter, won't get a harvest. The same farmer that does exactly the same planting , only during the right season gets a good harvest.

There is a right time and place for most things. But that also does not change the fatc that the wisdom is valid. Knowledge of planting in the analogy of the farmer is valid knowledge. It is how or when that knowledge is applied that is the issue.

 

[Optimax]

I get what you're saying. But no one has addressed my first example.


Or let's say that you see a person who is struggling financially that you want to help, but God tells you not to help that individual, because you'd only be enabling their problems.

Yes, those are scriptural principles, but they don't instruct us on how to respond to specific situations.

For example, the scripture that you posted above which says that if a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat is very true. But scripture also commands us to feed the poor.

Here's what you're not going to find in scripture; the instruction and leading of the Holy Spirit on how to respond to a specific situation where a person is struggling. A scriptural case can be made to both feed the poor and to realize that if a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat. So when confronted with a specific situation where someone is hungry, what should we do? The Holy Spirit may instruct us to do something, or that voice may instruct us to back off. In any event, my point is the answer to that specific situation is not found in scripture, and no confirmation of what we do is found there either. It is found only in listening to, and being instructed and trained by, that still, small voice.

Look again at your specific situation in your post I answered.

When The Holy Spirit directs us to feed someone there are scripture that confirm that as well.

 

[probinson]

Look again at your specific situation in your post I answered.

When The Holy Spirit directs us to feed someone there are scripture that confirm that as well.

Exactly my point.

There are scriptures that confirm that if a man does not work, he does not eat.

There are scriptures that confirm that we are to feed the poor.

So how do we know which one to use to "confirm" our specific situation?

You answered that question in your post; "When the Holy Spirit directs..." IOW, you are saying that not every instruction that we need to follow can be found in scripture, which is exactly what I've been saying throughout this entire thread.

 

[probinson]

This passage comes to mind.





A farmer that plants out of season , as in the middle of the winter, won't get a harvest. The same farmer that does exactly the same planting , only during the right season gets a good harvest.

There is a right time and place for most things. But that also does not change the fatc that the wisdom is valid. Knowledge of planting in the analogy of the farmer is valid knowledge. It is how or when that knowledge is applied that is the issue.

Agreed.

But what you just said, in not so many words, is that scriptural knowledge alone is not sufficient. We need wisdom (and I would add guidance) from the Holy Spirit to know when and how to apply that scriptural knowledge. That wisdom and Spirit leading is an experiential thing that you won't find the answers for in scripture.

 

[Faulty]

Exactly my point.

There are scriptures that confirm that if a man does not work, he does not eat.

There are scriptures that confirm that we are to feed the poor.

So how do we know which one to use to "confirm" our specific situation?

You answered that question in your post; "When the Holy Spirit directs..." IOW, you are saying that not every instruction that we need to follow can be found in scripture, which is exactly what I've been saying throughout this entire thread.

How are those exclusive?

If we can work, we work. If we can help the poor among us, we help.

Having poor among us in the church, does not mean the poor are refusing to work through laziness. Sometimes people are just in need. It happens.

 

[Optimax]

Exactly my point.

There are scriptures that confirm that if a man does not work, he does not eat.

There are scriptures that confirm that we are to feed the poor.

So how do we know which one to use to "confirm" our specific situation?

You answered that question in your post; "When the Holy Spirit directs..." IOW, you are saying that not every instruction that we need to follow can be found in scripture, which is exactly what I've been saying throughout this entire thread.

Are you trying to wear me out in answering you so I will cease discussing this? Wont' Work.

Read again my post carefully as what you stated is not what I wrote.

There are questions as I have stated(I think in this thread) that is not specifically covered by scripture, such as, should I move here or there, etc.

HOWEVER:

Obtaining an answer from the Holy Spirit is still directly connected to scripture;

BECAUSE:

Without diligent and consistent reading of what is in black and white black and white and red, however.

Without reading what is written one will not hear reliably the Holy Spirit when He speaks to us.

That is why so many even on this forum ask so many times about hearing God's Voice.

 

[Yitzchak]

Agreed.

But what you just said, in not so many words, is that scriptural knowledge alone is not sufficient. We need wisdom (and I would add guidance) from the Holy Spirit to know when and how to apply that scriptural knowledge. That wisdom and Spirit leading is an experiential thing that you won't find the answers for in scripture.

I agree.

But I have blessed in this area. Every time that I have asked God for scripture to back up what was happening in my life , he has led me to a passage. I cannot think of a single time where he did not.

Even situations like my wife's dental miracle. I didn't have a specific scripture for it . But I did have scriptures about healing and miracles and see a variety of strange supernatural events in the Bible. I did have the knowledge that only a sampling of miracles is listed in the Bible and not every supernatiral event that God has done. I also know that there are no scriptures forbiding or warning against it. We also had several prophetic words given to us in the time surrounding it.

So we were not just out doing stuff with no scripture behind us.

I have not had to go into situations trusting the Spirit and not having confirmation. The underground church in places like China where they do not have a Bible might have to do that.

 

[probinson]

How are those exclusive?

If we can work, we work. If we can help the poor among us, we help.

Having poor among us in the church, does not mean the poor are refusing to work through laziness. Sometimes people are just in need. It happens.

Of course there are people in need who are not lazy. As you say, it happens.

As does it happen that we can enable people in their laziness by "helping" them.

That's why we need the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us.

 

[probinson]

Are you trying to wear me out in answering you so I will cease discussing this? Wont' Work.

No, I'm simply discussing something with you. Nothing more, nothing less. If you're getting worn out, it's of your own doing.

Read again my post carefully as what you stated is not what I wrote.

There are questions as I have stated(I think in this thread) that is not specifically covered by scripture, such as, should I move here or there, etc.

Indeed. The answers to those questions (and many, MANY more that we encounter in our daily lives) are not in scripture. Which is why all through this thread I've refuted the imbalanced view that scripture is the only thing we need to be instructed by.

HOWEVER:

Obtaining an answer from the Holy Spirit is still directly connected to scripture;

BECAUSE:

Without diligent and consistent reading of what is in black and white black and white and red, however.

Without reading what is written one will not hear reliably the Holy Spirit when He speaks to us.

This has extremely little to do with what I'm talking about, which is being led and directed by the Holy Spirit. You can read scripture 'til you're blue in the face and if that's all you do, you'll gain a massive amount of scriptural knowledge. However, without experiences of what you've read, it's all just a theoretical, scholastic exercise.