The Scripture or Experience ?

[probinson]

I agree.

But I have blessed in this area. Every time that I have asked God for scripture to back up what was happening in my life , he has led me to a passage. I cannot think of a single time where he did not.

Sure. But the key is, He led you there. The scriptures are there all along. But by having the experience of God leading you to a specific passage of scripture, you were able to obtain the answer you needed. Absent that experience, the answer would still be there, but it would be of no use to you.

This is all I think most of us are trying to say. The OP asks the question "Scripture or Experience", but I would say, as others have, that is a false dichotomy. Scriptures and experience go hand in hand.

 

[Yitzchak]

Years ago I read an excerpt from a Baptist organization about the issue of what they called liberty of conscience. for them , it was one of their primary beliefs. They linked it to the Protestant Reformation and considered it one of the key issues. The Authority of Rome versus the authority of the individual consicence to interpret scripture.

I have heard similar sentiments put forth quite often in the Christian community. But one key component is frequently missing. These Baptists taught that the individual consceince meant that someone consecrated themselves fully to be open to the leading of the Spirit and to discern any conviction of sinful opinion in their conscience. They put 100% of all that they were into understanding the true intent of what God was saying in the scripture.

In other words , there plea was not that every Tom , Dick and Harry should be entitled ot their own opinion about what the scripture means. It was that honest and sincere men and woemn who had commited themselves to prayer and a searching of the scriptures were entitled to hear from God for themselves without having to go through the church leadership. it was not a casual and general statment that if you are a Christian then you can hear. It was in the context of a consecratd life which is set upon God speaking to them through the scriptures.


I do not believe that the Reformers ever taught or intended for people to do what is quite often doen today. Which is to say that every person's opinion about scripture is equally valid.


There defenitely is much more to being led by God than just having some head knowledge and some strong opinions about the scriptures

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Of course there are people in need who are not lazy. As you say, it happens.

As does it happen that we can enable people in their laziness by "helping" them.

That's why we need the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us.

the whole point of giving to the poor is that they have done nothing to earn the wages in their cup . in the same way we have done nothing to deserve the wages but of death in ours .

we have been given generously the blessings of the Father, so all gifts to those who cannot pay you back are an extension of that example .

 

[Yitzchak]

the whole point of giving to the poor is that they have done nothing to earn the wages in their cup . in the same way we have done nothing to deserve the wages but of death in ours .

we have been given generously the blessings of the Father, so all gifts to those who cannot pay you back are an extension of that example .

I agree. I do not like when I hear church people having long discusssions about whether someone is worthy to receive the help.

There is a well known illustration given about works and grace. It says that several people tryed to jump across the grand canyon at a point where it is a few miles across. It really did not matter whether they jumped eight feet ot ten feet. They were not even close. Someone might even spend years preparing like an athlete. They might even jump twenty feet. But still they will not make it.

Even so with grace. It is impossible that any of us can earn salvation by our own efforts. Some do a little better than others and some put in more effort. But in the end it is God who closes the distance.

It is a shame that pride enters in when it comes to people's career and money issues. People suppose that they have a nice home and a good financial situation because they worked for it. They don't realise that their efforts are like the guy who jumped the twenty feet. They suppose that the poor homeless guy is there because he only jumped two feet and came up short.

A lot of things can happen outside a person's control. The person who had a nice secure situation ends up needy in a short time.

 

[Yitzchak]

Sure. But the key is, He led you there. The scriptures are there all along. But by having the experience of God leading you to a specific passage of scripture, you were able to obtain the answer you needed. Absent that experience, the answer would still be there, but it would be of no use to you.

This is all I think most of us are trying to say. The OP asks the question "Scripture or Experience", but I would say, as others have, that is a false dichotomy. Scriptures and experience go hand in hand.

As the old English Proverb says

A nod, you know, is as good as a wink to a blind horse.

I think that I am going to begin using more English Proverbs.

 

[AudioArtist]

The alarm clock gazed longingly out of the window. But when your car gets stuck to a magnet, you've just got to call on the dog's help. If the clock strikes the number that is key (is key), then the magnet can't be pulled off the car by the car, nor the dog, but you're own special pen. Pens of this sort can only be manhandled by very small women or slightly larger men, but not children or their dogs. When you walk your cat (you should really walk the dog, not the cat, but anyway) - for the sake of argument, when you walk the cat, don't expect it to walk with you. It can't get the magnet off the car, and it can't help the Alarm. It can only purr.

 

[Optimax]

The alarm clock gazed longingly out of the window. But when your car gets stuck to a magnet, you've just got to call on the dog's help. If the clock strikes the number that is key (is key), then the magnet can't be pulled off the car by the car, nor the dog, but you're own special pen. Pens of this sort can only be manhandled by very small women or slightly larger men, but not children or their dogs. When you walk your cat (you should really walk the dog, not the cat, but anyway) - for the sake of argument, when you walk the cat, don't expect it to walk with you. It can't get the magnet off the car, and it can't help the Alarm. It can only purr.

This makes more sense than some "logic" I have read.

 

[probinson]

the whole point of giving to the poor is that they have done nothing to earn the wages in their cup . in the same way we have done nothing to deserve the wages but of death in ours .

we have been given generously the blessings of the Father, so all gifts to those who cannot pay you back are an extension of that example .

We're starting to veer off-topic, but suffice to say I'm not talking about determining if we think someone is "worthy" or "deserving" of our assistance. I'm talking about instances where it might be more of a hindrance than a help if we "help" someone that God is dealing with. IOW, I'm talking about being led by the Spirit, not making a personal judgment call in what I think is the best way to "help" someone.

I know it's an unpopular view, but sometimes the best thing we can do to help someone is to do nothing and let them feel the consequences of their actions.

To tie this all back to the OP, this requires more than scriptural knowledge. It requires an experiential relationship with our Father so that we know when to "help" and when to stop.

 

[Yitzchak]

We're starting to veer off-topic, but suffice to say I'm not talking about determining if we think someone is "worthy" or "deserving" of our assistance. I'm talking about instances where it might be more of a hindrance than a help if we "help" someone that God is dealing with. IOW, I'm talking about being led by the Spirit, not making a personal judgment call in what I think is the best way to "help" someone.

I know it's an unpopular view, but sometimes the best thing we can do to help someone is to do nothing and let them feel the consequences of their actions.

To tie this all back to the OP, this requires more than scriptural knowledge. It requires an experiential relationship with our Father so that we know when to "help" and when to stop.

When you put it this way , Making my personal judgment or opinion higher than the Holy Spirit's leading does seem like a mistake.

I can agree that we should hear from God instead of just thinking that we already know.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We're starting to veer off-topic, but suffice to say I'm not talking about determining if we think someone is "worthy" or "deserving" of our assistance. I'm talking about instances where it might be more of a hindrance than a help if we "help" someone that God is dealing with. IOW, I'm talking about being led by the Spirit, not making a personal judgment call in what I think is the best way to "help" someone.

I know it's an unpopular view, but sometimes the best thing we can do to help someone is to do nothing and let them feel the consequences of their actions.

To tie this all back to the OP, this requires more than scriptural knowledge. It requires an experiential relationship with our Father so that we know when to "help" and when to stop.

disagree . this is very on topic,

in fact it illustrates the topic .

nice try there btw . hehehe

 

[Tobias]

Giving to the poor is an issue that is covered quite well in the scriptures. Jesus told his disciples to give to anyone who asks of them. Paul mentioned that there were times when it's best to not give to someone, and let them suffer the consequences of being lazy.

No, we are not told what to do in each and every case that comes up. God does expect us to use our own brains at times! For those of us who do hear His voice, He may just tell us that the circumstances are different than what we think, and it's best to do the opposite of what we have intended. But either way, both giving and not giving are covered in scripture.


When a Prophet was told by God to walk around naked, the only scriptural response (according to everything we have been told about following scripture), would have been to tell God "no". If God cannot contradict scripture, then He had no right to ask this of anybody. The Law clearly stated that being naked was a sin.

If Abraham had any scriptures to refer back too, then he would have had an obligation to tell God "no" to the whole human sacrifice of Issac thing.

Now perhaps we do have a sure foundation in scripture, in that they show a precedence of God asking people to do things which are against His basic laws for His people. He is therefore allowed to ask us to sacrifice our children, or to break one of the other laws (like being naked); and provided He is the one who is doing the asking, then the correct response is for us to obey. Once again though this points to a God who is greater than, and apart from the written word of the Bible.

It is not unscriptural to do things that are forbidden in the Bible, if and only if it is the One True God asking you to do so.

 

[JEBrady]

We're starting to veer off-topic, but suffice to say I'm not talking about determining if we think someone is "worthy" or "deserving" of our assistance. I'm talking about instances where it might be more of a hindrance than a help if we "help" someone that God is dealing with. IOW, I'm talking about being led by the Spirit, not making a personal judgment call in what I think is the best way to "help" someone.

I know it's an unpopular view, but sometimes the best thing we can do to help someone is to do nothing and let them feel the consequences of their actions.

To tie this all back to the OP, this requires more than scriptural knowledge. It requires an experiential relationship with our Father so that we know when to "help" and when to stop.

Yeah, it's really about being able to hear the voice of the Lord.

When I was young in the Lord, someone close to me asked for some money. I was more than willing to give and said OK. Then I found myself in trouble. I became very alarmed in my spirit, and nothing I did would stop it. I grabbed my bible, looked up the scripture where Jesus said to give to those who ask, and it would bring peace, but still that alarm would come back in spades. I really did not know what was going on. I was inexperienced in the Lord, and was having a major problem. In my spirit, I was getting a very strong NO, to not give anything to this person. I didn't yet understand the leading of the Lord.

Long story short, I gave the money, but realized that I had made a mistake shortly afterward. See, God's spirit in me had changed my heart and I was willing to give, but didn't yet have experience in the Spirit to understand the leading of His spirit.

Why did God warn me not to give, when the word, the words in RED for goodness sake, said to give?

The thing is, God knows things we don't. He wanted me to remain pure, and this person, I'm afraid, had plans for this money that He did not want me to participate in. I wish I could say I was faithful, but I missed it. The best I can say is it was a learning experience, one that cost me, but it could have been worse.

We are to study the word of God and walk in the principles of the word of God. In this case, my heart had to be free of covetousness, I had to be willing to give to those who asked and not hold on to my material possessions, but give freely as Jesus teaches. The thing is, when our hearts are right in this way, God is faithful to lead us into all truth and keep us from being fools. He was faithful to me, to lead me because I was walking in the revealed word of God, willing to obey Him. Trouble was, I was unversed in the move of the spirit, and learned a hard and somewhat expensive lesson. Fortunately, I at least was able to learn something from my failure. We do learn from experience.

The thing I learned was that if I walk in the principles of the word of God, He is faithful to lead me when the circumstances require more revelation than that. No one who trusts in Him will be put to shame.

 

[Faulty]

A good sermon on this subject...

Spiritual Treason by A.W. Tozer

 

[FoundInGrace]

havent read the whole thread but scripture over experience.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Galatians is a good letter for this topic . especially chapter 3 .

 

[JimB]

According to Mark 16.17-20 scripture and experience work together. If you can’t experience what the scripture teaches then either your experience is flawed or your interpretation of the scripture is wrong.

The foolish thing to do, IMO, is to stubbornly cling to an interpretation of scripture we have been taught even though it does not work as we are taught it should. What is that definition of insanity again?

~Jim

It’s never about knowing the answers; it’s about living them. ~Stephanie Klein​

​

 

[mrhappy3]

WHAT DID PAUL MEAN IN GALATIANS WHEN HE SAID

"we who supplieth the Spirit to you"

Did he mean he layed hands on to EXPERIENCE God ?

or what ?

thanks in advance

 

[Faulty]

WHAT DID PAUL MEAN IN GALATIANS WHEN HE SAID

"we who supplieth the Spirit to you"

Did he mean he layed hands on to EXPERIENCE God ?

or what ?

thanks in advance

I assume you mean Galatians 3:5.

It's a question that Paul answers in the text. He asks two questions, verses2 and 5.

verse 2 - Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

verses 5 and 6 - Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith -just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?

Then he answers in verses 7 through 9:
"Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith."

He then goes on to tell of those who choose to be justified by the Law are under a curse. I don't see anything in there about the laying on of hands, but rather of those things received by faith alone.

 

[Tobias]

According to Mark 16.17-20 scripture and experience work together. If you can’t experience what the scripture teaches then either your experience is flawed or your interpretation of the scripture is wrong.

The foolish thing to do, IMO, is to stubbornly cling to an interpretation of scripture we have been taught even though it does not work as we are taught it should. What is that definition of insanity again?

~Jim

It’s never about knowing the answers; it’s about living them. ~Stephanie Klein
​

You've mentioned this a few times Jim, but I don't think I've commented on it yet. I agree whole heatedly!


Often times it's like trying to build one of those pieces of furniture you buy at Walmart that come in a box with *some assembly required*. The instructions are supposed to tell you step by step what to do, but sometimes you have to just toss them aside and go with what seems right and logical! Somehow something got lost in translation, and instructions written by a Chinese person just doesn't make sense to us. But there is no denying the functioning, working product when you do manage to fit all the pieces together.

People who deny the functioning, working spiritual life in favor of a misunderstood or mistranslated interpretation of the Bible, are crazy. But this is what standard Church doctrine teaches us that we must do! This is why I say that sometimes, we have to take the liberty (especially as laymen), to place experience over the scriptures. Because with our limited understanding of what the Word actually says, we sometimes just have to go with our gut feeling.

 

[JimB]

You've mentioned this a few times Jim, but I don't think I've commented on it yet. I agree whole heatedly!


Often times it's like trying to build one of those pieces of furniture you buy at Walmart that come in a box with *some assembly required*. The instructions are supposed to tell you step by step what to do, but sometimes you have to just toss them aside and go with what seems right and logical! Somehow something got lost in translation, and instructions written by a Chinese person just doesn't make sense to us. But there is no denying the functioning, working product when you do manage to fit all the pieces together.

People who deny the functioning, working spiritual life in favor of a misunderstood or mistranslated interpretation of the Bible, are crazy. But this is what standard Church doctrine teaches us that we must do! This is why I say that sometimes, we have to take the liberty (especially as laymen), to place experience over the scriptures. Because with our limited understanding of what the Word actually says, we sometimes just have to go with our gut feeling.

Thanx, Tobias. I agree. That “gut feeling” is often the Holy Spirit’s leading, even when we cannot recall a scripture to base that feeling on. Some call it intuition or premonition and there is always a feeling we experience that accompanies those gut feelings. Sometimes, it is just our fears or timidity that causes those feelings but many times it is the Holy Spirit leading us.

~Jim

It’s never about knowing the answers; it’s about living them. ~Stephanie Klein​

​