The Scripture or Experience ?

[SpiritPsalmist]

So then, Christianity becomes a religion only for the most intellectual, hermeneutically elite of us. Those of us privileged with a big brain and access to the best education will be able to correctly deduce what God wants of us in life, through our seemingly infallible processes of logical, historical, rational, and theological thinking - all handed down to us from institutions we, of course, already agree with - or, if we're really free-thinking, from the depths of our own mental acrobatics.

Forget the least of these, or the poor, or the desperate, or those with incomplete access to scripture, or those not steeped in Western Reformation-drenched theological training. Forget the simple-minded, the mentally unfit, the philosophically-dyslexic or the savants among us.

? No

 

[K2K]

When it comes down to it, the answer always has to be scripture, not experience, and that's why you will see scripture held in the highest esteem by these men of God. Jesus did the same, he answered the devil with scripture. When discussing the principles of God, scripture is what we have. Your experience means nothing to me. My experience means nothing to you. Experience has to be...experienced. We might get something by hearing each other's testimonies, if they agree with the word.

So it has to be about the written word of God.

The rub is to rightly divide.

THE ANSWER ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT COME DOWN TO FOLLOWING THE SCRIPTURES, BUT RATHER FOLLOWING THE LORD!!!

Jn 5:39,40 "Your search the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life"

The Scriptures are good for study and reproof for the bringing up of a righteous man. So we study the Scriptures to help us follow the Lord, but following the Lord means hearing from Him. And He puts a testimony in Jacob. That is to say; that if you have been following the Lord you are bound to have experiences.

I see people proclaim that they are living by the Word of God, only to find out that they have put their faith in their understanding of the Scriptures to get them to heaven. The Word of God to them means the Scriptures.

It is ok to think of the Scriptures as the word of God but not as the Word of God.

Abram did not see the Scriptures and a vision and hear the Scriptures talking to him, but rather the Word of God that Abram saw in a vision [Gen 15] and heard from, to which it was counted as righteousness to him, was the Lord our God.

When the prophets wrote "The Word of the Lord came to me saying," they did not mean someone brought them Scriptures, but rather that they heard from the One whose name is called "The Word of God".

So Abram, the prophets of old, and all those that following the Lord live by hearing His voice. And my friends, following His voice lead to experiences both natural and supernatural, because of who He is.

Elijah stood on the mountain of God and saw the mighty wind, the earth quake, and the fire. Elijah experienced those things from the mountain of God. Still Elijah also knew that the Lord was in that still small voice that you heard in the cave on the side of the mountain.

I follow that voice, and the first words I heard that voice ever tell me was, "READ YOU BIBLE". So I do to this day. And from reading the Bible, it becomes clear that it is the One with the still small voice that I am trying to follow. That is what's important.

Yet I have been kissed by a greenish colored spiritual cloud that formed into the shape of a lady's face. I have 3 times gotten rain on very hot cloudless days, and the rain was only around me. But don't think that I am boasting. I did nothing except try to follow the voice, and those things happened.

Yet because of what has happened to me from following my Lord, I am not so quick to judge someone giving glory to God for the great things that they say He did in their life. I don't follow them, but if they are giving glory to God, should I scoff at their testimony? If I do scoff at their testimony, and it was God, then how am I know scoffing at?

If someone want to proclaim that Jesus Christ put gold into their teeth, then praise God. That does mean I follow them. I still follow the small voice for the Lord our God and tell others to do the same.

Perhaps a person proclaiming strange and wonderful experiences from Jesus Christ, did not actually experience them or perhaps they were not of the Lord. Does Satan and his followers proclaim Jesus Christ? If so it is not in order to get you to follow Jesus Christ our Lord.

It was written that if all the things that Jesus did were written down, that perhaps the whole earth could not contain them. And that just about His short ministry here on earth. So what fool is it that thinks that just because it was not written down, that He wouldn't do it, or didn't do it? Is not that person leaning on their own understanding.

He once told me, "Karl, I can not be put in a box. I can not even be put in a Bible box. Can 1,500 pages tell you all that I can do."

If you are not sure about something you see, why don't you ask Him. If you find yourself saying " the answer always has to be scripture" is it because you are not looking to the One whose name is Wonderful Counselor?

The answer always has to be Jesus Christ, and from my experience He will tell you straight off "READ YOUR BIBLE".

 

[JEBrady]

The problem I have with this is, Whose interpretation of scripture, yours or mine? It is obvious from this forum that none of us interpret scripture in exactly the same way or else we would not debate every post. If you take scripture above experience then your interpretation will have to be the correct one or you have placed your faith only in your opinion of what scripture says. All of my Christian life, and even in this forum, I have discovered that I have misinterpreted certain passages and, had I placed my faith on my misinterpretation, I might as well have placed it in the Koran or the Book of Mormon.

Only experience or lack thereof can prove or disprove if what I believe is correct or not. IOW, you can't have the Word without the signs following (i.e., experience). Experience verifies scripture.

~Jim

It’s never about knowing the answers; it’s about living them. ~Stephanie Klein​

LOL, I think you're misinterpreting Mark 16. What are you saying? Someone has to cast out demons, speak in tongues or heal someone before you can accept what they teach? Do they have to do it each time? How do you know when you are hearing truth, Jim?

As I said, rightly dividing is the rub.

The devil says, "if you're the son of God, throw yourself down", based on Ps 91, and Jesus answers with Dt 6, "you do not test God".

So, the thing is, what do you mean by experience? Does that mean that you trust God as your healer, and you ask for prayer and hands are laid on you, but you don't receive healing that you misinterpreted because of your experience? But the next time you go up, the anointing goes into your body, you feel it and God instantly heals you, then what?

Exactly what does it mean to you that the spirit leads you into all truth? How does he do that?

 

[JEBrady]

Agreed. Now I know this next question is not an easy one. But what does go wrong with the groups that are unorthodox ?

Someone mentioned the Mormans. I think that they are a good example.The Mormans have many good qualities. They even use the exact same Bible as we do. They add an additional Testament though. The Mormans are 100% convinced that their way agrees 100% with our Bible. They talk about Jesus and Abraham and most of the same things that the rest of us do.

Yet they have added another several books to the Bible. They have also added some traditions that we are not familiar with and some new doctrines which they say is their interpretation of the scripture.

So how did they get into left field ? Apparently , we Religious people , are capable of having things go really wrong and thinking it is biblical. Not just having a few details wrong.


I think that we need God to help us understand the Bible by regenerating us and giving us the Holy Spirit. I also think that a lot of the different opinions and interpretations are from people who are in the flesh.

The thing is, what should really frighten us is if so many of us in the church are in the flesh that much : Then what other things are being effected by our walk in the flesh ? We could be a whole lot worse off than we realize.

Mormonism is a bad example for this, since it was birthed through a guy with an occult background who never knew the Lord. Mormons didn't go off track, they never were on track. This deception started and continues in demonic power, but there are those individuals and groups who started right and ended up in the ditch.

What goes wrong with groups (really, individuals) who get off track is because of deception. Yes, it's frightening that this could happen, but it should be utterly terrifying and we should be very concerned with the mechanics of how this happens, because it's what's on the plate for the immediate future.

Deception. How does a Christian become deceived?

It's not a matter or hermeneutical correctness of doctrine, level of instruction or personal intellectual prowess, but of personal character and faithfulness to God. The best bible teacher in the entire world, if he doesn't live up to what he knows, is deceived. The bible teaches us that sin hardens the heart and has the power to deceive us. The reason there's so much confusion and false doctrine and division in the true church is because people simply do not walk with God. You're right- the problem is folks who are in the flesh.

It's all about being a doer of the word and not a hearer only. The doers of the word will be sharp in the spirit and hear correctly. Those who don't will end up being deceived.

 

[Alive_Again]

We give the Word first priority. Every prophesy should line up with the Word because God does not contradict Himself. God surely speaks today. The church of the Bible was only the beginning. We should "hear" the voice of the Shepherd as we read or hear prophesy. It should be edifying and make one want to repent if needed. We should expect that God is speaking and that prophets are necessary gifts in the church. Not just to prophets, but it is important not to despise the prophetic word and it is important to avail ourselves to it.

It you're only fellowshipping where they don't allow the prophetic word, go somewhere where they will. It's vital to remain being an overcomer. God does nothing without revealing it to His prophets. Is He doing anything today? Silly question!

I know for a fact that God wants each believer to be developed enough to hear spiritually, and that clearly. It's our first priority to get debris removed and everything that interferes with our hearing. He's been telling me to get my expectations up and be a more radical seeker in my walk. Let's pray that we all will fulfill His expectations and walk in unshakeable peace and joy.

 

[Mixolydian]

This isn't to downplay the Bible or promote experiences, but this dutch pastor puts it all in the proper perspective less than 2 minutes.

YouTube - Furious Love 1.mov

 

[K2K]

I was talking to someone I know concerning this thread. He compared the thread to someone pointing at a green house and asking whether it was blue or was it yellow?

The house is green, and niether blue or yellow. You might be able to mix blue paint and yellow paint and get to the color of hte house, my friend explained, but the house is green because it grows.

So there are those thinking that it is about following the Scriptures, but that is simply not correct, just as the yellow color of dirt is not correct. And others that think that it is about following spiritual experiences, but that too is not correct, just like the blue color of the sky is not correct. God is raising/ growing children, and perhaps they are like reed being blown in the wind, but we are following the voice/Word of God. It is about being lead by His words to us.

We are preaching hearing with faith. You can reach that conclusion by reading the Scriptures and matching it with your experiences, but it is not your experiences alone, nor your understanding the the Scriptures that we enable you to find the color your are looking for.

Today if you are hearing from the Lord, He will tell you to read the Scriptures, won't He? Can you read? Are the Scriptures available where you are at?

And if you are being lead by the Spirit, you will have spiritual experiences. After all it is the Spirit that we are lead by.

Still the Lord is in that still small voice. So if you have a problem, do you turn to the Scriptures to find an answer. You are not following the Spirit then are you, but rather you are leaning on your understanding.

And if you are having a problem, are you looking for a spiritual revival in your life. Are you just looking for a wonderful spiritual feeling? How then are you checking the spirits. Are you not then like a lonely girl who just wants someone, anyone, to put an arm around her?

We are all looking for someone, but not just anyone are we? We are looking for our King, the King of kings. We need to listen. He will match up to the Scriptures, because He had them written. We will also get a revival in our life, because He changes us. Still the house is not yellow or blue. The Kingdom of God is like a seed [a word from God spoken to us] that when planted and grows will be the larges tree in the garden and the birds of the air will land there.

So now, if there is a discussion about whether the green house is blue/experience or yellow/Scripture, is it because some are not listening to the Lord and hearing what He has to say about it? Put the Scriptures together with your experiences and you will find the Word of God.

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

 

[Faulty]

This isn't to downplay the Bible or promote experiences, but this dutch pastor puts it all in the proper perspective less than 2 minutes.

YouTube - Furious Love 1.mov

I don't think that man knows what he's talking about. He seperates the teachings of doctrive concerning Jesus from Jesus, then gives a conclusion by saying it's either one or the other.

But it was Jesus, Himself, who told us that it would be through the words given to us by these NT writers that would reveal Him to us. Not our experiences, but through their words. (John 17:20)

 

[AudioArtist]

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

Jesus is the Word (logos) of God. He never was created but always existed. Instead we see all things were made through Him. Everything is totally dependent upon Him.

John 14:21-22

Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

Jesus Himself is the truth. We can experience Him because of the testimony His followers have left us. Doctrines about Him can be understood in the minds of the unregenerate on one level, but only those who experience Him and are born again - with rivers of living water flowing out of their innermost being - can truly "know" these truths through the renewing of their minds.

 

[Faulty]

When you give people the gospel -- Christ crucified for our sins, then buried and raised on the third day, so that all those who believe in Him will be forgiven and not need to suffer the wrath of the Father against us -- do you use scripture, or your experiences?

Do you teach on our sanctification based on scriptures or experience? Justification, Judgment? His second coming? Experience or scriptures?

Where is it that we inherently know where we can find truth? Scriptures, of course. Your experiences mean absolutely nothing to me or anyone else, just as mine should mean nothing to you. If a neutral party has no use for our experience, how much more should we, as a fully-biased party, lack faith in our experiences as a source of truth?

 

[probinson]

When you give people the gospel -- Christ crucified for our sins, then buried and raised on the third day, so that all those who believe in Him will be forgiven and not need to suffer the wrath of the Father against us -- do you use scripture, or your experiences?

Both.

 

[probinson]

Wow! Look at all the experiences Psalm 34 talks about;

Psalm 34:4-8 (NIV)
I sought the LORD, and he answered me;
he delivered me from all my fears.
Those who look to him are radiant;
their faces are never covered with shame.
This poor man called, and the LORD heard him;
he saved him out of all his troubles.
The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him,
and he delivers them.
Taste and see that the LORD is good;
blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.
​

Look at that. Experiences are shared, and then an instruction is given to have your own experience ("taste" and "see").

This idea that our experiences are invalid and unimportant is absolute nonsense, not at all supported by scripture.

 

[Faulty]

Both.

Sorry to hear that, because your experience is not the gospel. People need Jesus, not you.

 

[JEBrady]

Both.

Which one of those, the gospel or your personal testimony, has the power of God to save?

 

[Optimax]

Both.

Understand what you are trying to say.

An experience that is valid must line up with scripture.

If an experience does line up with scripture that does not then elevate the experience to the level of scripture.

Nor does it give the experience any validation apart from the same scripture that validated it.

Scripture alone can lead a person to salvation.

No amount of experience apart from scripture can lead a person to salvation.

 

[probinson]

Sorry to hear that, because your experience is not the gospel. People need Jesus, not you.

Of course people need Jesus.

Sharing testimonies (experiences) of what God has done for me is a darn good way to introduce people to that Jesus that they need. Sharing what God has done for me is an encouragement to most people.

I've got a newsflash for you; people don't want to hear about a Jesus that you've read about and have a knowledge of. They want to hear about a Jesus that you know and have experienced that they can know and experience for themselves.

"Taste and see".

 

[probinson]

Which one of those, the gospel or your personal testimony, has the power of God to save?

IMO, you've create a false dichotomy.

Our lives (and experiences) should be a living epistle, testifying of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's not an either/or question.

Scriptural knowledge without experience is useless. Experience without scriptural knowledge is useless.

We need both to share the Gospel. Otherwise, we might as well all just chalk "the Gospel" up to a scholarly exercise that comes not by experiencing the life-changing Love of God, but by head knowledge of what scripture says.

When you share the Gospel, do you not share your own testimony with people?

 

[JEBrady]

IMO, you've create a false dichotomy.

Our lives (and experiences) should be a living epistle, testifying of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's not an either/or question.

Scriptural knowledge without experience is useless. Experience without scriptural knowledge is useless.

We need both to share the Gospel. Otherwise, we might as well all just chalk "the Gospel" up to a scholarly exercise that comes not by experiencing the life-changing Love of God, but by head knowledge of what scripture says.

When you share the Gospel, do you not share your own testimony with people?

Sometimes I do give some personal testimony.

Taste and see.

My party buddy got saved by a cop who found him knee-hugging drunk and gave him the gospel. He got saved and told everyone, literally, he knew. He was over my apartment talking about it. I knew the change in this guy. I knew him personally, intimately. I argued with him when he was witnessing to me because his experience meant absolutely zero/zed/nothing to me. Sure, I knew he was DEFINITELY different. I wanted none of it, either.

Until he looked at me in the power of the holy spirit and asked, "do you know that Jesus is Lord?"

God dealt with me then. But Pete, his experience had no power. Only God's anointing changed me. You got to taste and see for yourself, and no man can make you experience his experience.

I told someone in my family about my witness. His comment? Whatever helps you make it through the night.

So, what has the power of salvation, the word of God or your personal witness?

 

[probinson]

Sometimes I do give some personal testimony.

Taste and see.

My party buddy got saved by a cop who found him knee-hugging drunk and gave him the gospel. He got saved and told everyone, literally, he knew. He was over my apartment talking about it. I knew the change in this guy. I knew him personally, intimately. I argued with him when he was witnessing to me because his experience meant absolutely zero/zed/nothing to me. Sure, I knew he was DEFINITELY different. I wanted none of it, either.

Until he looked at me in the power of the holy spirit and asked, "do you know that Jesus is Lord?"

God dealt with me then. But Pete, his experience had no power. Only God's anointing changed me. You got to taste and see for yourself, and no man can make you experience his experience.

Then we seem to agree, because I'm not saying people should go on my experience. I'm saying they need to have an experience of their own. No amount of scriptural knowledge will make that happen.

 

[probinson]

God dealt with me then. But Pete, his experience had no power.

I would disagree.

His experience quite obviously had life-changing power. How would he be able to look you in the eye in the power of the Holy Spirit had he not had that incredibly powerful, life-changing experience?

I think maybe we're not communicating well. I'm not saying that you should go based on other's experiences, but I am saying that other people's experiences can be the catalyst for them realizing that they can have their own, powerful, life-changing experience.