The Scripture or Experience ?

[BenAdam]

Experience that is not based on nor lines up with scripture and is elevated as truth/reality above scripture is what is being discussed.

Experience that is not based on nor lines up with scripture is not reliable and is the playground of deception.

Either that (which is distincly possible) or one's interpretation is incorrect which is also the playground of deception.

 

[JimB]

(John Wimber would be proud. )

-

 

[JimB]

Which is why personally, I believe scripture confirms (not overtakes) experience.

I would say that it goes both ways: experience confirms the Word and the Word confirms experience. Each confirms the other. There is a danger, of course, with those who base everything on experience at the expense of truth/scripture but there is also a danger with those who claim that the Bible teaches one thing when experience does not confirm it.

For example, to say that healing is guaranteed/provided in the Atonement of Christ for sin (and I do not want to reopen that can of worms, but …) yet there are Christians, believers, who are prayed for who are not healed would, to me, is strong evidence that the PHIA theology is incorrect. If physical healing is provided in the Atonement, as scripture teaches us that redemption of sin is, then every believer would be physically healed, just as they are spiritually redeemed. Ergo, experience either confirms or invalidates, proves or disproves, ones interpretation of the Word. To cling to the interpretation in spite of evidence (experience) to the contrary is simply not being honest with oneself.

~Jim

Love God. Love people. Period. ​

 

[whatfor]

Abraham believed God about having a child before Isaac was born. Noah built a Ark before a flood came. If Noah had waited until it started raining to start building , then it would have been too late.

In other words , they did not base their faith upon their experience , they based their faith upon the promise or word of God.

Verse 13 says these died in faith not having received the promises. I take that to mean that they had to take the word of God over their own experiences.

Now a follow up question might be is the word of God only written ? Obviously we have the written scriptures now but back in the old days , they had a spoken word of God to go by. In both cases it was the word of God.

My understanding of the scripture is that God gives us promises but we have to step out in faith and be tested before receiving. Usually stepping out in faith comes before experience. I think we are always tested. Maybe there are occasional exceptions but the general pattern is God gives us his word and we choose to believe it in the face of testing which sets up experiences which quite often contradict the promise that he gave us. that is part of the test. Whether we will be faithful to what God said when it gets difficult.

I should have made the opening question a bit more detailed , I suppose. But that is o.k. I think that an open ended discussion has it's advantages.

The one crucial issue that I hear coming out in the posts is whether or not God speaks outside of the scripture. In other words , does God speak to us through our experiences ? That seems tricky since experiences are used to test us many times. But I am not ruling it out.

Either way you look at it. One thing seems very clear. Having faith in the word of God is crucial because the experiences might not always match since it might include testing. In the case of Abraham , he died believing and never having seen some of the promises.

Does anyone else think about these kinds of issues ? I think it is really important that we be honest before God and check ourselves to see where our faith is really at. Is it faith that will stand up to testing ? We need to be really , really sure that we have heard from God in order to put our very life , both physical and eternal life ,at stake.

If you are like me, there are times when you think you have heard from God in prayer but are not 100% sure. Usually when that happens to me , I begin to pray into it and sometimes fast. I also ask God to show me in the scripture something to back it up. Does anyone else do that ?

I read up to this , did not read it but had a thought come to me that they did not have scripture before it was written so was more experienced based, we have both.

Then I read the post and it seemed like a confirmation.

 

[whatfor]

I think he actually had a good point.

I've been to some Reformed Churches where the sermon touched on the issue of being guided by God. The Bible was held up, and we were told that the ONLY way God would do any guiding in our lives was through studying the Holy Scriptures.

But such a religious instruction only gives death and quenches our openness to the other ways God can lead us. All scripture is essential to our Christian walk, but it isn't the only means God will ever use to guide us. God might say to us, "Go!", and where we are going and what we will be doing may not be specifically contained in the Bible, but will of course correspond with the principles of Scripture. The Bible isn't the third member of trinity - but it is a means towards receiving Him and His guidance! And scripture can't itself be understood apart from the power of the Holy Spirit.

I know you know all of this, and that I'm being Captain Obvious here, but just for balance - Jesus is recorded as saying in John's Gospel that the Spirit will lead us to all truth. In his epistles, Paul constantly exhorts believers to keep in step with the Spirit. In Acts, we see examples of the Holy Spirit giving very specific directions and instructions to believers in how they are to spread the Good News. Then there are the Spiritual Gifts, especially prophecy and words of knowledge, which God will use to lead us - either directly in us, or through a brother or sister who has a word from the Lord for us. There is the counsel of fellow believers, there are dreams and visions, and there are hopes and dreams specific to the modern world we live in that God has placed in our hearts. Are we called to fight against child trafficking? Are we to work with drug addicts? Is our primary ministry in youth work or in caring for the elderly? Are we called to go to a land that has never been reached by Christians? Should we give up our job to pursue full time ministry, or is our calling within our work place?

Please don't think I undervalue scripture. I have been increasingly grateful to God for the Bible as I mature in the faith - what a privilege to hold in our hands the precious letters Paul sent to his beloved churches, the inspired works of the prophets, the sayings of Jesus, the revelations of Daniel and John, and the wisdom of Solomon. How lucky I am to be reading all these inspired writings, and how wonderful it is how God preserved them through burnings, attempted corruptions, forgeries, and all a manner of other human evils. But to say that experience is inferior to Scripture is dangerous, just as it is to claim that it is superior. Full obedience to God's plan for our lives can only come about if we experience the leading of His Holy Spirit, if we are carried by an experience His presence, His joy and His hope, and if in all of this we are always turning to Scripture to learn the attributes of God and to ensure we are really being lead by Him.

I was thinking very simular, the Holy Spirit guides us.
Unless we are like Smith Wigglesworth and carry a Bible around with us at all times , or have memorized all of it then we are in danger of missing obeying when He is leading us.
Sometimes we just have to take chances.

 

[Source Scripture]

Really, when we think about it though, all the wrong experiences that some were falling under, were corrected by scripture. The sinful self righteous of Romans, those who were getting into Judaism in Galatia, the false teachers of Colossae etc. Paul was scripture, and according to Peter, it was the "experience" of the unstable, that went against scripture.

2 Peter 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

 

[Yitzchak]

As discussed in another thread , The Bible defines heresy as a work of the flesh in Galatians. This same theme has come up again and again in several threads now.


We really underestimate the damage that living in the flesh does. One form of fleshly living and interpreting the bible is not really better than another. The answer is life in the Spirit . Then we can properly interpret scripture.

One of the posters was correct that using the scripture is no garauntee against error if the scripture is used in an improper manner.


The reason that the scirpture is so reliable is because it did not come by the will of man as just another opinion. It came as God's word. It was spiritual and not carnel. Man's opinions are carnel.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The thing is , we will often here that there are many opinions and that all opinions should be respected as valid. this is not a good course of action when it comes to the Bible. The bible teaches that there are only two kinds of Bible interpretation. Fleshly and spiritual. The fleshly type creates heresies and divisions within the body of Christ.

There are often several or many truthes contained within a single verse. the Bible is deep. But there are not many interpretations. There is only one Spirit led interpretation.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[JEBrady]

The Scripture or Experience ?

I know ideally the two should match. But they don't always match.

Now there are two sides to this. There are scriptural promises that weare not currently experiencing but continue to believe for in faith. There also is this ugly issue of saying things are from God and not having any scripture to back it up.

I am thinking of both. I spent the day reading some Christian classics. Smith Wigglesworth , Finney and Watchman Nee were on the reading list today. I see a difference in their writings that they leaned more heavially upon the Bible than a lot of the modern ministries do.

When it comes down to it, the answer always has to be scripture, not experience, and that's why you will see scripture held in the highest esteem by these men of God. Jesus did the same, he answered the devil with scripture. When discussing the principles of God, scripture is what we have. Your experience means nothing to me. My experience means nothing to you. Experience has to be...experienced. We might get something by hearing each other's testimonies, if they agree with the word.

So it has to be about the written word of God.

The rub is to rightly divide.

 

[Optimax]

When it comes down to it, the answer always has to be scripture, not experience, and that's why you will see scripture held in the highest esteem by these men of God. Jesus did the same, he answered the devil with scripture. When discussing the principles of God, scripture is what we have. Your experience means nothing to me. My experience means nothing to you. Experience has to be...experienced. We might get something by hearing each other's testimonies, if they agree with the word.

So it has to be about the written word of God.

The rub is to rightly divide.

 

[JimB]

When it comes down to it, the answer always has to be scripture, not experience, and that's why you will see scripture held in the highest esteem by these men of God. Jesus did the same, he answered the devil with scripture. When discussing the principles of God, scripture is what we have. Your experience means nothing to me. My experience means nothing to you. Experience has to be...experienced. We might get something by hearing each other's testimonies, if they agree with the word.

So it has to be about the written word of God.

The rub is to rightly divide.

The problem I have with this is, Whose interpretation of scripture, yours or mine? It is obvious from this forum that none of us interpret scripture in exactly the same way or else we would not debate every post. If you take scripture above experience then your interpretation will have to be the correct one or you have placed your faith only in your opinion of what scripture says. All of my Christian life, and even in this forum, I have discovered that I have misinterpreted certain passages and, had I placed my faith on my misinterpretation, I might as well have placed it in the Koran or the Book of Mormon.

Only experience or lack thereof can prove or disprove if what I believe is correct or not. IOW, you can't have the Word without the signs following (i.e., experience). Experience verifies scripture.

~Jim

It’s never about knowing the answers; it’s about living them. ~Stephanie Klein​

 

[Faulty]

The problem I have with this is, Whose interpretation of scripture, yours or mine? It is obvious from this forum that none of us interpret scripture in exactly the same way or else we would not debate every post. If you take scripture above experience then your interpretation will have to be the correct one or you have placed your faith only in your opinion of what scripture says. All of my Christian life, and even in this forum, I have discovered that I have misinterpreted certain passages and, had I placed my faith on my misinterpretation, I might as well have placed it in the Koran or the Book of Mormon.

Only experience or lack thereof can prove or disprove if what I believe is correct or not. IOW, you can't have the Word without the signs following (i.e., experience). Experience verifies scripture.

~Jim

It’s never about knowing the answers; it’s about living them. ~Stephanie Klein​

After all, that is how the Mormon's do it. They experience a burning sensation in their 'bosom', then it's that experience that verifies the Book of Morman as rightful scriptures.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The problem I have with this is, Whose interpretation of scripture, yours or mine? It is obvious from this forum that none of us interpret scripture in exactly the same way or else we would not debate every post. If you take scripture above experience then your interpretation will have to be the correct one or you have placed your faith only in your opinion of what scripture says. All of my Christian life, and even in this forum, I have discovered that I have misinterpreted certain passages and, had I placed my faith on my misinterpretation, I might as well have placed it in the Koran or the Book of Mormon.

Only experience or lack thereof can prove or disprove if what I believe is correct or not. IOW, you can't have the Word without the signs following (i.e., experience). Experience verifies scripture.

~Jim

It’s never about knowing the answers; it’s about living them. ~Stephanie Klein​

I have found too that even when I misinterpreted something, in my reliance upon God, He still stepped in and kept me from danger. That's not to say that misinterpreting is ok, it's not, however, God is faithful even though we are faithless. It all still rests on WHO we are relying on. There were times when I did something totally stupid but God protected me.

I know the Lord has given me scriptures to claim in particular situations where the scripture had nothing whatsoever to do with that situation, however, God gave it to "me" personally to use in that situation for me...not them, but me. It was not necessarily to be applied to their "same" situation, but just for me in that situation.

I also think there can be multiple interpretations with several if not all of them correct...we see in part. Each of us have a part and if we listened to each other we'd find more of those parts coming together and forming a more complete picture.

For me, in my walk with HIM, it goes both ways. My experience confirms the Word that is written on paper and on my heart and the scripture confirms my experiences.

 

[AudioArtist]

So then, Christianity becomes a religion only for the most intellectual, hermeneutically elite of us. Those of us privileged with a big brain and access to the best education will be able to correctly deduce what God wants of us in life, through our seemingly infallible processes of logical, historical, rational, and theological thinking - all handed down to us from institutions we, of course, already agree with - or, if we're really free-thinking, from the depths of our own mental acrobatics.

Forget the least of these, or the poor, or the desperate, or those with incomplete access to scripture, or those not steeped in Western Reformation-drenched theological training. Forget the simple-minded, the mentally unfit, the philosophically-dyslexic or the savants among us.

 

[AudioArtist]

-double

 

[JimB]

After all, that is how the Mormon's do it. They experience a burning sensation in their 'bosom', then it's that experience that verifies the Book of Morman as rightful scriptures.

Okay. But that does not answer my objection.

~Jim

It’s never about knowing the answers; it’s about living them. ~Stephanie Klein​

 

[Yitzchak]

The problem I have with this is, Whose interpretation of scripture, yours or mine? It is obvious from this forum that none of us interpret scripture in exactly the same way or else we would not debate every post. If you take scripture above experience then your interpretation will have to be the correct one or you have placed your faith only in your opinion of what scripture says. All of my Christian life, and even in this forum, I have discovered that I have misinterpreted certain passages and, had I placed my faith on my misinterpretation, I might as well have placed it in the Koran or the Book of Mormon.

Only experience or lack thereof can prove or disprove if what I believe is correct or not. IOW, you can't have the Word without the signs following (i.e., experience). Experience verifies scripture.

~Jim

It’s never about knowing the answers; it’s about living them. ~Stephanie Klein​

I really like this post. You're making sense to me.

 

[Yitzchak]

So then, Christianity becomes a religion only for the most intellectual, hermeneutically elite of us. Those of us privileged with a big brain and access to the best education will be able to correctly deduce what God wants of us in life, through our (of corse) infallible processes of logical, historical, rational, theological processes - all handed down to us from institutions we, of course, already agree with - or, if we're really free-thinking, from the depths of our own original mental acrobatics.

Forget the least of these, or the poor, or the desperate, or those with incomplete access to scripture, or those not steeped in Western Reformation-drenched theological training. Forget the simple, the mentally disabled, or savants among us.

Which takes us full circle to the situation that brought about the Protestant Reformation. back then the thought was that only the elite leadership can properly interpret scripture so it is better to not even give the common people access to the scriptures since it will only confuse them they should just put their trust in the church leadership who will explain everythigng to them.

Even basic literacy cannot compete with decades of higher learning.


Your point is well taken , espeacialy in light of the fact that Jesus came and minsitered to the down and out. The main problems that Jesus had was with the religious establishment . Not with the common people.

I think not much has changed. Which role would I play ? Maybe Nicodemus by night ? I would defenitely be a Pharisee. After 28 years in the church and all my studying.

Jesus did not disregard the common people who were probably full of supersticious ideas.


So your point is a valid one.


On the other side though. What about the importance of scripture ? The written scripture was God's idea , after all. It certainly has it's place.

 

[Yitzchak]

When it comes down to it, the answer always has to be scripture, not experience, and that's why you will see scripture held in the highest esteem by these men of God. Jesus did the same, he answered the devil with scripture. When discussing the principles of God, scripture is what we have. Your experience means nothing to me. My experience means nothing to you. Experience has to be...experienced. We might get something by hearing each other's testimonies, if they agree with the word.

So it has to be about the written word of God.

The rub is to rightly divide.

Agreed. Now I know this next question is not an easy one. But what does go wrong with the groups that are unorthodox ?

Someone mentioned the Mormans. I think that they are a good example.The Mormans have many good qualities. They even use the exact same Bible as we do. They add an additional Testament though. The Mormans are 100% convinced that their way agrees 100% with our Bible. They talk about Jesus and Abraham and most of the same things that the rest of us do.

Yet they have added another several books to the Bible. They have also added some traditions that we are not familiar with and some new doctrines which they say is their interpretation of the scripture.

So how did they get into left field ? Apparently , we Religious people , are capable of having things go really wrong and thinking it is biblical. Not just having a few details wrong.


I think that we need God to help us understand the Bible by regenerating us and giving us the Holy Spirit. I also think that a lot of the different opinions and interpretations are from people who are in the flesh.

The thing is, what should really frighten us is if so many of us in the church are in the flesh that much : Then what other things are being effected by our walk in the flesh ? We could be a whole lot worse off than we realize.

 

[AudioArtist]

On the other side though. What about the importance of scripture ? The written scripture was God's idea , after all. It certainly has it's place.

I think you answered that in your other post - we read the Bible, as Smith Wigglesworth would say it, "in Holy Ghost." And if we have access to a decent education and a passion for history, theology, and studying in general, then that's wonderful! I'm not denying the role of reason in our faith - just the way some seem to claim that the Bible alone and their big brains (and hermeneutics) guarantee a near-perfect understanding of what God wants them to do in their lives. This approach is alien to much of the world's population and ignores the fact that the way any given person understands and "lives out" a text is in some way influenced by their own culture. It also places an unusual amount of faith in the human mind and human reason, when we're told not to lean on our own understanding.

But, worst of all, it destroys the whole point of the Body of Christ - which is an organisation requiring the full participation and the full attention of every member! We all need each other for understanding, for correction, and for guidance. We have all understood different facets of God's character, and each of us will gravitate towards certain expressions of the faith. The simple can learn from the learned, and the learned can learn from the simple. Yes, the Holy Spirit guides us to all truth, but none of us hears perfectly, and just as folk think their cherished interpretations of scripture are more correct than others, other folk think they've heard the Holy Spirit when they haven't. The core issue is, I think, pride. And pride prevents people from being teachable, and so it prevents people from realising the great importance of the Body of Christ in our journey of understanding the nature of God and ways of God.

In my opinion, scripture, experience, and the Body of Christ all have equal roles. One is not superior to the other, and if any one of these components is missing, we'll find it harder than it should be to discern God's will for our lives.

 

[Tobias]

If indeed heresy is a work of the flesh, then really the problem isn't nearly as big as we've made it out to be. We have the Bible, we have the Holy Spirit living within us, and we have the Gifts of the Spirit in operation in the Church.


IF WE ARE REALLY SEEKING THE TRUTH, then there are enough safety nets in place to catch us if we fall into error. If we don't want the TRUTH because our deed are evil and we prefer the darkness, then no amount of accurate theology will save us!

The religious organization known as the Church has been burning heretics for centuries, but it has not preserved the TRUTH. The only Truth that really matters is the daily bread the Lord gives us little by little. We can't eat it in great big chunks. Like manna, it must be gathered daily. People who try to swallow the entire Bible all at once, or store it up for a rainy day find that it doesn't keep well!

All we have is the Word that nourished us yesterday, (and we've already hidden it in our hearts), and our experience with the Lord today. God is our loving Father who alone is responsible for keeping us. When we don't want Him anymore, then we will fall into error.


Psalm 119:11
Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.

Rev 12:11a
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony