The Scripture or Experience ?

[Optimax]

Sounds to me like "another Gospel" is one contrary to the one Paul first preached. Perhaps you have added to this scripture the belief that your doctrinal foundation is the one true Gospel, and that any other besides your own is "another gospel?"

We really need to be careful not to do that!

Are we a bit contentious tonite or what?

 

[Always in His Presence]

The written word is our only source of a sure word from God.

It's only scripture we are told is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

If we are relying on experiences for teaching, correction, training, etc, then we stand against this verse.

QFT

 

[Faulty]

I think you should read that scripture again, because you've either misread it, or intentionally changed it;

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
​

You'll note that it does not say that only scripture is profitable. Simply that all scripture is profitable.

By inserting the word only into the text, you've changed the scripture to fit your preference. But it doesn't say that.

So rest easy fellow brothers and sisters in Christ; the only thing you stand against when you rely on a Godly experience for teaching, correction, training etc. is the false idea that only scripture is profitable for those things.

This is the point where I would love to have an emote rolling its eyes.

 

[Tobias]

Are we a bit contentious tonite or what?

Who, me?


I'm just tired of this scripture being twisted to say; "Any doctrine you hear that is different than the doctrines you first learned in Sunday School, is wrong!!!"

That is NOT what it means!

 

[andreha]

Scripture is good - without it we'd be fumbling around in the dark for sure. We do need to remember however, that we have the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth. Once we let Him lead the way - we truly experience the Glory of God.

 

[tturt]

How many times do people look at the same Scripture and come away with as many interpretations as there are people?

Ex. Matt 6 "When you fast..." Some see that as it's assumed believers will fast regularly while others see it as "if you happen to fast..."

Also, the virgin birth of Jesus was prophesied in Isaiah but I'm sure Mary was still shaken.

 

[Optimax]

Who, me?


I'm just tired of this scripture being twisted to say; "Any doctrine you hear that is different than the doctrines you first learned in Sunday School, is wrong!!!"

That is NOT what it means!

That is not what I said either.

I did not learn much of anything in Sunday School. Did not learn anything until I was almost 40.

Then I learned what I have learned so far from listening to different teachings, taking notes, buying the tapes/cd's and studying for myself.

Anything that relates to God and His Plans and purposes and how He pursues them only comes from scripture.

If it does not come from scripture it does not pertain to God's Plans , Purposes and Pursuits but man's idea of what those are.

 

[lismore]

I believe that we should strive to put God's word into practice.

It's a process, so there will be work to be done!

 

[probinson]

Is there scripture that says anything else does all that except scripture?

As I was laying in bed last night right before I fell asleep (odd when God speaks to me sometimes...), He brought this scripture to my remembrance;

John 16:13 (AMP)
But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].
​

So Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth will guide us to "the whole, full Truth". Sounds to me like Jesus is saying the Spirit of Truth is able to do the things listed in 2 Timothy also.

 

[probinson]

This is the point where I would love to have an emote rolling its eyes.

Here ya go.

Roll on.

That still doesn't change the fact that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 doesn't say that only scripture is profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

 

[Optimax]

As I was laying in bed last night right before I fell asleep (odd when God speaks to me sometimes...), He brought this scripture to my remembrance;

John 16:13 (AMP)
But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].
​

So Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth will guide us to "the whole, full Truth". Sounds to me like Jesus is saying the Spirit of Truth is able to do the things listed in 2 Timothy also.

That is a great scripture! Here are some more.

The Truth the Spirit of Truth will lead us into it the Truth of and which is God's Word/Scripture/Bible.

John 17:17

17 Sanctify them through thy truth : thy word is truth .
KJV

2 Cor 6:7

7 By the word of truth , by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
KJV

Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth , the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV

Col 1:5

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
KJV

1 Thess 2:13

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth , the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
KJV

2 Tim 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth .
KJV

James 1:18

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth , that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
KJV

 

[AudioArtist]

This is the point where I would love to have an emote rolling its eyes.

I think he actually had a good point.

I've been to some Reformed Churches where the sermon touched on the issue of being guided by God. The Bible was held up, and we were told that the ONLY way God would do any guiding in our lives was through studying the Holy Scriptures.

But such a religious instruction only gives death and quenches our openness to the other ways God can lead us. All scripture is essential to our Christian walk, but it isn't the only means God will ever use to guide us. God might say to us, "Go!", and where we are going and what we will be doing may not be specifically contained in the Bible, but will of course correspond with the principles of Scripture. The Bible isn't the third member of trinity - but it is a means towards receiving Him and His guidance! And scripture can't itself be understood apart from the power of the Holy Spirit.

I know you know all of this, and that I'm being Captain Obvious here, but just for balance - Jesus is recorded as saying in John's Gospel that the Spirit will lead us to all truth. In his epistles, Paul constantly exhorts believers to keep in step with the Spirit. In Acts, we see examples of the Holy Spirit giving very specific directions and instructions to believers in how they are to spread the Good News. Then there are the Spiritual Gifts, especially prophecy and words of knowledge, which God will use to lead us - either directly in us, or through a brother or sister who has a word from the Lord for us. There is the counsel of fellow believers, there are dreams and visions, and there are hopes and dreams specific to the modern world we live in that God has placed in our hearts. Are we called to fight against child trafficking? Are we to work with drug addicts? Is our primary ministry in youth work or in caring for the elderly? Are we called to go to a land that has never been reached by Christians? Should we give up our job to pursue full time ministry, or is our calling within our work place?

Please don't think I undervalue scripture. I have been increasingly grateful to God for the Bible as I mature in the faith - what a privilege to hold in our hands the precious letters Paul sent to his beloved churches, the inspired works of the prophets, the sayings of Jesus, the revelations of Daniel and John, and the wisdom of Solomon. How lucky I am to be reading all these inspired writings, and how wonderful it is how God preserved them through burnings, attempted corruptions, forgeries, and all a manner of other human evils. But to say that experience is inferior to Scripture is dangerous, just as it is to claim that it is superior. Full obedience to God's plan for our lives can only come about if we experience the leading of His Holy Spirit, if we are carried by an experience His presence, His joy and His hope, and if in all of this we are always turning to Scripture to learn the attributes of God and to ensure we are really being lead by Him.

 

[probinson]

That is a great scripture! Here are some more.

The Truth the Spirit of Truth will lead us into it the Truth of and which is God's Word/Scripture/Bible.

John 17:17

17 Sanctify them through thy truth : thy word is truth .
KJV

Good scriptures

But let me try to explain with a practical example of what I'm trying to say. If God speaks to you and says "Optimax, I want you to go to Wal-Mart this morning, because there is a man there who I want you to minister my Love to", is that any less "God's Word" than the scriptures?

You're not going to open up scripture and find the instruction to go minister to a guy at Wal-Mart. It's simply not there. But the Holy Spirit can instruct you and lead you there, if you'll recognize that He is able to instruct you just as well as the scriptures.

The danger in saying that instruction, correction, etc. only comes from scripture is that it discounts the fact that God is speaking to us all the time. Now you can certainly confirm what God speaks to you in scripture. In the example above, we know that Jesus tells us to "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel." So the instruction from the Holy Spirit to go to Wal-Mart and minister to someone is certainly inline with scripture, but the bottom line is the instruction to go to Wal-Mart to minister to a specific person is not going to be found anywhere in scripture, and if one is too far in the ditch believing that instruction can only come from scripture, then they're quite likely to miss the direction and instruction that the Truth giving Spirit gives them in their daily lives.

 

[Faulty]

Good scriptures

But let me try to explain with a practical example of what I'm trying to say. If God speaks to you and says "Optimax, I want you to go to Wal-Mart this morning, because there is a man there who I want you to minister my Love to", is that any less "God's Word" than the scriptures?

You're not going to open up scripture and find the instruction to go minister to a guy at Wal-Mart. It's simply not there. But the Holy Spirit can instruct you and lead you there, if you'll recognize that He is able to instruct you just as well as the scriptures.

The danger in saying that instruction, correction, etc. only comes from scripture is that it discounts the fact that God is speaking to us all the time. Now you can certainly confirm what God speaks to you in scripture. In the example above, we know that Jesus tells us to "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel." So the instruction from the Holy Spirit to go to Wal-Mart and minister to someone is certainly inline with scripture, but the bottom line is the instruction to go to Wal-Mart to minister to a specific person is not going to be found anywhere in scripture, and if one is too far in the ditch believing that instruction can only come from scripture, then they're quite likely to miss the direction and instruction that the Truth giving Spirit gives them in their daily lives.

You can "confirm" it in scripture? Gee, that's a swell concession for you to make.

To make a word supposedly from God subservient to "confirmation" to the written word it to say it is the written word that is superior to any other kind of word. And it is that written word that is providing the correction and reproof af any other word, just like I said.

 

[Tamara224]

The Scripture or Experience ?

This is a false dichotomy.

We can't know Scripture unless we have the experience of learning it. We experience Scripture through reading and studying it ourselves and having others teach it to us.

When people say they are relying on Scripture, all to often, they are relying on what someone else told them that Scripture means. That's just as much an experience as anything else.

Also, ironic, is that if we are truly being instructed by Scripture, we have to acknowledge that Scripture never tells us to follow or be led by Scripture.

Scripture clearly instructs us to be led by the Holy Spirit. Scripture is profitable for doctrine/teaching, correction, reproof and training in righteousness. It doesn't say anything about Scripture being a daily guide for our lives. The Holy Spirit will speak to us through Scripture (among other ways).

However, it is God (the Holy Spirit) whom we follow, not a book.

 

[probinson]

You can "confirm" it in scripture? Gee, that's a swell concession for you to make.

That's not a concession. It's what I've said and believed all along.

To make a word supposedly from God subservient to "confirmation" to the written word it to say it is the written word that is superior to any other kind of word. And it is that written word that is providing the correction and reproof af any other word, just like I said.

Kudos for completely ignoring the example I posted above.

Question; how do you confirm from scripture if God told you to go to Wal-Mart to minister to someone?

 

[Tobias]

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is a key foundation in the Protestant Church. No one is denying that. But even before Martin Luther came up with that, the scriptures played an important part of Catholicism through the ages. They are important if you want to be a Christian. Period.

The problem revolves around the wording of the doctrine. Sola Scriptura means "scripture only", setting Protestant beliefs apart from the Catholics who believe that spiritual foundations are to be found in both the scriptures AND the teachings of the Church. They believe that God gave the Church leadership the authority to know His divine will, and so the Bible is understood though the light of Church doctrine.

Martin Luther did not wish to establish a new church with the same authority. So He founded Protestantism with the five Solas, sola scriptura being only one of them. He supported the authority of scripture, but from what I hear he laughed at the idea of the common man being able to interpret scripture for himself.

It is only lately that the application of Sola Scriptura has gone into overdrive. Every protestant church since Luther has established it's own set doctrines, and people are tired of being told to believe things that the Bible does not support. So more and more we are being told that if we just drop everything that is not specifically biblical, then we will do well in our spiritual lives.

I see Sola Scriptura as an experiment that has never been taken to completion. Many are trying to do so, but most are unwilling to abandon all their previous denominational foundations, in favor of looking to the scriptures ONLY for their doctrines. We spend a lot of time discussing which teachings are more founded in scripture than others, but in the end there is not enough material in the Bible alone to instruct us on all the issues life throws at us.

It's almost ironic how the scriptures themselves solve the problem! They tell us that the Holy spirit will lead us into all the Truth. They show us how God has ordained the five-fold ministry to assist us in our walk with the Lord. The proper use of the Gifts of the Spirit are explained, gifts meant to guide us in our day to day experience of God.

I see the scriptures pointing me away from the radical application of Sola Scriptura. They point me to my God, in whom I place all my trust. Through scripture we see that He uses many methods to teach His children; not just the one which involves us reading the Bible. I see that the foundation of His church rests upon the Apostles and Prophets He ordains, who are nothing without Christ the Chief Cornerstone. But the initial foundation of Christ and the first apostles is all included in the Bible too!

There is a serious mis-application of Sola Scriptura out there, which discredits many of the teachings of the Bible. It installs the Bible as the fourth member of the Trinity, and discourages all Holy Spirit activity. This is something we must take a stand against! Perhaps we haven't found the right words yet to explain our position fully, but the point has been made for any who are open to listen.

 

[Tobias]

This is a false dichotomy.

We can't know Scripture unless we have the experience of learning it. We experience Scripture through reading and studying it ourselves and having others teach it to us.

When people say they are relying on Scripture, all to often, they are relying on what someone else told them that Scripture means. That's just as much an experience as anything else.

Also, ironic, is that if we are truly being instructed by Scripture, we have to acknowledge that Scripture never tells us to follow or be led by Scripture.

Scripture clearly instructs us to be led by the Holy Spirit. Scripture is profitable for doctrine/teaching, correction, reproof and training in righteousness. It doesn't say anything about Scripture being a daily guide for our lives. The Holy Spirit will speak to us through Scripture (among other ways).

However, it is God (the Holy Spirit) whom we follow, not a book.

Very well said!



Not only is the Bible a book of experience (a record of many different people's experience with the Lord), but it is believed that the writing of each of the books of the Bible was a special divine experience as well!

How are we supposed to KNOW the God of these stories, if we do not experience Him for ourselves?

 

[JEBrady]

As the scripture says, "the anointing you received from him abides in you, and you don't need anyone to teach you".

We judge everything by that inward anointing. Anyone can read the bible, but it's what God reveals that imparts wisdom and true knowledge. So, when we hear a teacher teaching, or read the scripture, or experience whatever it is in life that we experience, the most important thing is to have and to listen to and to recognize the voice of the indwelling spirit of God as He reveals the truth to us.

And, the spirit and the word agree.

 

[Optimax]

Very well said!



Not only is the Bible a book of experience (a record of many different people's experience with the Lord), but it is believed that the writing of each of the books of the Bible was a special divine experience as well!

How are we supposed to KNOW the God of these stories, if we do not experience Him for ourselves?

Experience that is not based on nor lines up with scripture and is elevated as truth/reality above scripture is what is being discussed.

Experience that is not based on nor lines up with scripture is not reliable and is the playground of deception.