The Scientific Method & Macroevolution?

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

So the deity(s) is located at prayer?

It's never as simple as that, but in a rudimentary sort of way it represents a state of being and of consciousness somewhere between cosmic time and eternity.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

I'm pretty sure this is what David meant by "the joy of thy salvation."

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Wasn't this a result of his infidelity with a girl he spied sunning her skin on a nearby verandah?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

<edit>

To understand macroevolution you have to understand the mechanisms and how they affect populations of organisms. At a minimum, you need to understand mutation, selection, and speciation. You need to understand why these mechanisms would produce a nested hierarchy, and what a nested hierarchy is.

After tossing the idea of scientific methodology around, I'm back at the primary focus of this thread: MACROEVOLUTION

To break this up into topics for discussion, would it look something like this?

A.
Understand The Mechanisms & How They Affect Populations of Organisms.
B.
Basic minimum mechanisms to consider:
1. Mutation
2. Selection
3. Speciation
C.
Understand why these mechanisms would produce a nested hierarchy, and what a nested hierarchy is.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wasn't this a result of his infidelity with a girl he spied sunning her skin on a nearby verandah?

Sorta.

2 Samuel 11:2 And it came to pass in an eveningtide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king's house: and from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon.

Psalm 51 is David's repentant prayer.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Sorta.

2 Samuel 11:2 And it came to pass in an eveningtide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king's house: and from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon.

Psalm 51 is David's repentant prayer.

More than sorta AV, he most certainly did the deed upon wot his heart did feed and then when pregnant she lay he planned the death of her man, her husband. Sorry for the funny English, I'm reading Browning*.

~~~
*The Pied Piper of Hamelin

 

[AV1611VET]

More than sorta AV,

I said "sorta" because you said she was sunning herself, and the Bible said she was washing herself.

 

[ChetSinger]

After tossing the idea of scientific methodology around, I'm back at the primary focus of this thread: MACROEVOLUTION

To break this up into topics for discussion, would it look something like this?

A.
Understand The Mechanisms & How They Affect Populations of Organisms.
B.
Basic minimum mechanisms to consider:
1. Mutation
2. Selection
3. Speciation
C.
Understand why these mechanisms would produce a nested hierarchy, and what a nested hierarchy is.

Hmm, I think "macroevolution" is a vague term that in this forum is likely to generate more heat than light.

Here's Wikipedia, for example:

Macroevolution is evolution on a scale of separated gene pools. Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution, which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population.

Macroevolution is anything that is "at or above the level of species"? What about the mosquitoes in the British subway system who can no longer mate with their aboveground cousins? Have they "macro-evolved" because they're now a new species? They're still mosquitoes. If that's an example of macro-evolution I think the word is too broad to have much use.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Hmm, I think "macroevolution" is a vague term that in this forum is likely to generate more heat than light.

Here's Wikipedia, for example:



Macroevolution is anything that is "at or above the level of species"? What about the mosquitoes in the British subway system who can no longer mate with their aboveground cousins? Have they "macro-evolved" because they're now a new species? They're still mosquitoes. If that's an example of macro-evolution I think the word is too broad to have much use.

This is precisely why I am not looking for a summarized definition, but seeking to dig into the actual science by studying the details. Hence the reason why I am asking Loudmouth if his summary can be broken up into topics for discussion:

<edit>

To understand macroevolution you have to understand the mechanisms and how they affect populations of organisms. At a minimum, you need to understand mutation, selection, and speciation. You need to understand why these mechanisms would produce a nested hierarchy, and what a nested hierarchy is.

After tossing the idea of scientific methodology around, I'm back at the primary focus of this thread: MACROEVOLUTION

To break this up into topics for discussion, would it look something like this?

A.
Understand The Mechanisms & How They Affect Populations of Organisms.
B.
Basic minimum mechanisms to consider:
1. Mutation
2. Selection
3. Speciation
C.
Understand why these mechanisms would produce a nested hierarchy, and what a nested hierarchy is.

i.e.

A.
Understand The Mechanisms & How They Affect Populations of Organisms.
B.
Basic minimum mechanisms to consider:
1. Mutation
2. Selection
3. Speciation
C.
Understand why these mechanisms would produce a nested hierarchy, and what a nested hierarchy is.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

I said "sorta" because you said she was sunning herself, and the Bible said she was washing herself.

However, the point is that this Psalm is the penitent supplication of a King who committed adultery and murder, and I don't see how it applies to my situation at all.

 

[ChetSinger]

This is precisely why I am not looking for a summarized definition, but seeking to dig into the actual science by studying the details. Hence the reason why I am asking Loudmouth if his summary can be broken up into topics for discussion:

i.e.

A.
Understand The Mechanisms & How They Affect Populations of Organisms.
B.
Basic minimum mechanisms to consider:
1. Mutation
2. Selection
3. Speciation
C.
Understand why these mechanisms would produce a nested hierarchy, and what a nested hierarchy is.

I see. Well, I'll leave him to expand on that if he wants to. I think the very word is so broad that I don't think it's very useful in a crevo debate.

 

[Davian]

What do you call this place, that is not reality?

If you mean physical reality, I call it the Kingdom of God.

This "kingdom of God" is not reality?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

I see. Well, I'll leave him to expand on that if he wants to. I think the very word is so broad that I don't think it's very useful in a crevo debate.

I'm not going to wait for him. He gave a pretty good starting point for me, so I'm going to begin by exploring (B). 1. Mutation; 2. Selection & 3. Speciation, beginning with Mutation.

I have what I think is a good source for it ( All About Mutations | HOPES ) and shall begin reading and thinking and hopefully others will pour in their insights about Mutation. I shan't go onto the others, until such time as I've got a total handle on Mutations.

Thanks.

I love the start: 'With their sword-wielding, karate-chopping, and pizza-eating ways, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles swept American children by storm in the early 1990s. Unfortunately,....'

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Moving forward with understanding 'Mutation', I thought this little bit of encouragement to continue -- might be worth reading:

'.... The Modern Evolutionary Synthesis identifies mutation as being central to natural selection. Mutation provides and maintains genetic variation amongst individuals in a population, a prime factor for natural selection to occur. ....' *

* Charles Darwin & Evolution

 

[Loudmouth]

If one were able to tap into the knowledge which comes from God, then that would not be worthless.

If?

In fact, there are many things which have already been written down, which have great worth to us.

Many things that are made up have worth to some people.

Yet, some of these sacred texts, require that one be born of God to receive them.

You don't have human parents?

I don't want to replace anything.
I enjoy both the natural, supernatural and spirit knowledge which come from the Lord. You are not one who believes in the Lord, right? If so I understand and accept that, but it does not mean that your view is the only right one. Correct?

How is your view distinguishable from something that is made up?

 

[Loudmouth]

Moving forward with understanding 'Mutation', I thought this little bit of encouragement to continue -- might be worth reading:

'.... The Modern Evolutionary Synthesis identifies mutation as being central to natural selection. Mutation provides and maintains genetic variation amongst individuals in a population, a prime factor for natural selection to occur. ....' *

* Charles Darwin & Evolution

Mutation is any change in DNA sequence from parent to offspring, and it may or may not result in a change in fitness.

 

[Loudmouth]

A.
Understand The Mechanisms & How They Affect Populations of Organisms.
B.
Basic minimum mechanisms to consider:
1. Mutation
2. Selection
3. Speciation
C.
Understand why these mechanisms would produce a nested hierarchy, and what a nested hierarchy is.

Languages fall into a rough nested hierarchy. Obviously, there is cross pollination between languages, especially in the modern era, but languages are a decent metaphor for biological evolution.

As you probably know, changes in spelling, pronunciation, and jargon enter into a language each year. These are equivalent to mutations. As long as a population all speaks the same language, they are like a species. Any changes spread through the population so that everyone understands each other even if they couldn't understand someone from many generations ago (e.g. try reading middle english). In this way, you have mutation and selection.

Speciation is something different, but works with the other two mechanisms. Speciation is two populations that no longer speak to each other, for whatever reason. When you have two populations that don't speak to each other you get DIFFERENT changes occuring in each population. When enough differences accumulate, all of the sudden you have two populations that can't understand each other. That is speciation, and that is exactly what happened to French, Italian, and Spanish, three of the languages that are descendents of Latin. And wouldn't you know it, languages form a branching hierarchy just like evolution:

 

[Loudmouth]

I think the very word is so broad that I don't think it's very useful in a crevo debate.

Why is "a change in DNA from parent to offspring" too broad of a definition for mutation?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Languages fall into a rough nested hierarchy. Obviously, there is cross pollination between languages, especially in the modern era, but languages are a decent metaphor for biological evolution.

As you probably know, changes in spelling, pronunciation, and jargon enter into a language each year. These are equivalent to mutations. As long as a population all speaks the same language, they are like a species. Any changes spread through the population so that everyone understands each other even if they couldn't understand someone from many generations ago (e.g. try reading middle english). In this way, you have mutation and selection.

Speciation is something different, but works with the other two mechanisms. Speciation is two populations that no longer speak to each other, for whatever reason. When you have two populations that don't speak to each other you get DIFFERENT changes occuring in each population. When enough differences accumulate, all of the sudden you have two populations that can't understand each other. That is speciation, and that is exactly what happened to French, Italian, and Spanish, three of the languages that are descendents of Latin. And wouldn't you know it, languages form a branching hierarchy just like evolution:

Okay, I remember you gave this answer on the Lines of Evidence thread. Correct? It's a pretty good break down, but how about some actual science without all the metaphor?
Perhaps we might begin with Mutation -- and you might note I am reading from a site ( All About Mutations | HOPES ) and would welcome a good source where I can really sink my teeth into the actual science involved. Savvy?

 

[ChetSinger]

Why is "a change in DNA from parent to offspring" too broad of a definition for mutation?

I had been referring to the word "macroevolution", not "mutation".

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Mutation is any change in DNA sequence from parent to offspring, and it may or may not result in a change in fitness.

Okay this may work for you as a scientist, but simplifying or turning stuff into metaphors might help some folks but I'm after the actual science involved.
Thanks nonetheless for the effort, but let's do some actual science please?

Thanks in advance.
lewiscalledhimmaster.