The Sabbath is the 'Lords Day', not Sunday.

[Reasonably Sane]

Scripture says differently.

Again, I disagree.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

So Jesus teaching to not break the least of these commandments means that we can break them freely.

No. I'm using the example of the looking at a woman with lust in your heart. His audience thought they were doing fine since they didn't commit adultery. Jesus said, nope. And those that didn't kill. Did they hate? Yep. I look at my Christain brothers throughout my life (including myself) and notice that every single one harbors hate to one degree or another in their heart against others from time to time. You can do better as you mature, but you can't be perfect.

And perfection is all that works. We're all like a bunch of guys training to run and jump successfully over the Grand Canyon. We have no better chance than the guy that sits around and eats big macs all day. We'll only make it across on Jesus' back. Period. That was his point, IMO.

But it doesn't mean we should "sit around and eat big macs all day" either.

 

[Danthemailman]

The Lord's Day - Revelation 1:10 ... The First Day!

www.bible.ca

 

[Gary K]

No. I'm using the example of the looking at a woman with lust in your heart. His audience thought they were doing fine since they didn't commit adultery. Jesus said, nope. And those that didn't kill. Did they hate? Yep. I look at my Christain brothers throughout my life (including myself) and notice that every single one harbors hate to one degree or another in their heart against others from time to time. You can do better as you mature, but you can't be perfect.

And perfection is all that works. We're all like a bunch of guys training to run and jump successfully over the Grand Canyon. We have no better chance than the guy that sits around and eats big macs all day. We'll only make it across on Jesus' back. Period. That was his point, IMO.

But it doesn't mean we should "sit around and eat big macs all day" either.

Go read my thread Is sinning necessary. There is a lot of Biblical sinning is not necessary.

 

[Lukaris]

It's a legit question as you gave a list negative of motives and said the church didn't do the change for those motives.

Daniel says the opposite.

Daniel 9: 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

You are closer to doing the very things Daniel speaks of with tendencies of arrogance and ignorance. Most of the same Christians who worshipped on the Resurrection Day were also the early martyrs.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No. I'm using the example of the looking at a woman with lust in your heart. His audience thought they were doing fine since they didn't commit adultery. Jesus said, nope. And those that didn't kill. Did they hate? Yep. I look at my Christain brothers throughout my life (including myself) and notice that every single one harbors hate to one degree or another in their heart against others from time to time. You can do better as you mature, but you can't be perfect.

And perfection is all that works. We're all like a bunch of guys training to run and jump successfully over the Grand Canyon. We have no better chance than the guy that sits around and eats big macs all day. We'll only make it across on Jesus' back. Period. That was his point, IMO.

But it doesn't mean we should "sit around and eat big macs all day" either.

I'm confused, I asked if we were to do the opposite of what Jesus said and we are free to break the least of the commandments and you said no, but then go into all the reasons as if we are able to break the least of them.

When Jesus taught and He healed, He said go and sin no more John 8:11- not go and sin a little. We are not saved in a little sin, we are saved from sin Mat 1:21 and if we feel our devil is greater to keep us in sin than Jesus is to keep us from sin, than our devil is bigger than our God, not something I believe. The Ten Commandments just shows us our sin like a mirror Romans 3:30 Romans 7:7 and show our need for Jesus to forgive and forsake when we confess which means one is truly sorry and wants a change of direction and through the power of Jesus Christ we can gain victor over sin. John 14:15-18 scripture says there is a people who does this.

Revelation 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

We need to turn to Christ daily and die daily of our sins and He will give us the power to overcome. It comes down to our decisions are we a slave to sin or a slave to Christ and those decisions determine the path we are one.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

If one truly wants to submit to God and truly wants to obey Him the way He asks, not the way we want, He will give us the power to do so! The problem is most want to stay in darkness, instead of coming to the light (Truth) John 3:19-21 and all of God's commandments are Truth Psa 119:151 and keeping not His commandments, there is no truth 1 John 2:4 There is no commandment for Sunday keeping, but there is for Sabbath keeping. He will wash away all sins and unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 trust Him, His teachings and His example- He leads us on the narrow path Psa 23

 

[Gary K]

You are closer to doing the very things Daniel speaks of with tendencies of arrogance and ignorance. Most of the same Christians who worshipped on the Resurrection Day were also the early martyrs.

How is it arrogance to quote scripture?

 

[Reasonably Sane]

I'm confused, I asked if we were to do the opposite of what Jesus said and we are free to break the least of the commandments and you said no, but then go into all the reasons as if we are able to break the least of them.

My point is that none is righteous. We all sin, and we don't reach a point where we no longer commit sins. None of us do. But we are forgiven for all sins, past, present and future. After all, ALL of my sins were future sins when Jesus paid the price.

The good news is that we don't "try not to sin" to ensure salvation, but rather because we love our Father and wish to do his will out of love, not fear of the wages of sin. And don't kid yourself, sin does damage every person who commits it even though you may be saved. Plenty of famous preachers have fallen from grace when they acts of adultery are discovered. It may destroy their family, and their ministry, but they don't lose their salvation.

That's why I tend to believe that the real "hell" experienced by people who commit sins (all of us) is in this life on earth. We're here to learn, and we learn some tough lessons when we sin. But those that have accepted his free gift and repented are still saved.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My point is that none is righteous. We all sin, and we don't reach a point where we no longer commit sins. None of us do. But we are forgiven for all sins, past, present and future. After all, ALL of my sins were future sins when Jesus paid the price.

The good news is that we don't "try not to sin" to ensure salvation, but rather because we love our Father and wish to do his will out of love, not fear of the wages of sin. And don't kid yourself, sin does damage every person who commits it even though you may be saved. Plenty of famous preachers have fallen from grace when they acts of adultery are discovered. It may destroy their family, and their ministry, but they don't lose their salvation.

That's why I tend to believe that the real "hell" experienced by people who commit sins (all of us) is in this life on earth. We're here to learn, and we learn some tough lessons when we sin. But those that have accepted his free gift and repented are still saved.

What it sounds like you're saying is if we in believe in Christ we don't have to change- He died for our sins, future present past and therefore we can continue on the same path we have always been on and be saved in our sins.

This is not what the bible teaches. We are not saved in our sins, we are saved from sin Mat 1:21 and when we truly believe in Christ we die of self (sin and our old ways) and are recreated in Him who is without sin. If we stumble along the way, we have a High Priest and Advocate who is faithful to forgive us when we confess and will cover us in His righteousness and can keep us from sin. Sin is of the devil 1 John 3:8 and we are either a slave to sin, or a slave to Christ. Rom 6:16

The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 through Christ and His free sacrifice we can choose life, but we need to die of self (sin) and be reborn in Him. The Ten Commandments shows us our sin like a mirror, so we know the way God wants us to live, which is depending on His righteousness Psa 119:172 and not our own.

There very much is a hell and today no one is in hell, today we are in our test, not hell, hell just means the grave and in the end those who can stand which is a question in Revelation before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ who have been transformed in the image of God and have the same faith of Jesus who kept the commandments of God Rev 14:12 John 15:10 will be reconciled back to God Rev 22:14

Thanks for the chat and God bless.

 

[Gary K]

My point is that none is righteous. We all sin, and we don't reach a point where we no longer commit sins. None of us do. But we are forgiven for all sins, past, present and future. After all, ALL of my sins were future sins when Jesus paid the price.

The good news is that we don't "try not to sin" to ensure salvation, but rather because we love our Father and wish to do his will out of love, not fear of the wages of sin. And don't kid yourself, sin does damage every person who commits it even though you may be saved. Plenty of famous preachers have fallen from grace when they acts of adultery are discovered. It may destroy their family, and their ministry, but they don't lose their salvation.

That's why I tend to believe that the real "hell" experienced by people who commit sins (all of us) is in this life on earth. We're here to learn, and we learn some tough lessons when we sin. But those that have accepted his free gift and repented are still saved.

So once saved always saved?

 

[Reasonably Sane]

What it sounds like you're saying is if we in believe in Christ we don't have to change- He died for our sins, future present past and therefore we can continue on the same path we have always been on and be saved in our sins.

This is not what the bible teaches. We are not saved in our sins, we are saved from sin Mat 1:21 and when we truly believe in Christ we die of self (sin and our old ways) and are recreated in Him who is without sin. If we stumble along the way, we have a High Priest and Advocate who is faithful to forgive us when we confess and will cover us in His righteousness and can keep us from sin. Sin is of the devil 1 John 3:8 and we are either a slave to sin, or a slave to Christ. Rom 6:16

The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 through Christ and His free sacrifice we can choose life, but we need to die of self (sin) and be reborn in Him. The Ten Commandments shows us our sin like a mirror, so we know the way God wants us to live, which is depending on His righteousness Psa 119:172 and not our own.

There very much is a hell and today no one is in hell, today we are in our test, not hell, hell just means the grave and in the end those who can stand which is a question in Revelation before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ who have been transformed in the image of God and have the same faith of Jesus who kept the commandments of God Rev 14:12 John 15:10 will be reconciled back to God Rev 22:14

Thanks for the chat and God bless.

First, No, that is not what I'm saying. When I posted that I was thinking of Paul's words on the subject in Romans 6, starting at verse 1.

Regarding my use of the word "hell", I'm not talking about Sheol, Hades or Gehenna, which are often translated to "hell", a made up word. I'm talking about earthly suffering as used in the phrase, "he created a hell on earth". I'm merely trying to say, as said in "Oh brother where art though",:
Delmar O'Donnell:
The preacher says all my sins is warshed away, including that Piggly Wiggly I knocked over in Yazoo.

Ulysses Everett McGill:
I thought you said you was innocent of those charges?

Delmar O'Donnell:
Well I was lyin'. And the preacher says that that sin's been warshed away too. Neither God nor man's got nothin' on me now. C'mon in boys, the water is fine.
...
Ulysses Everett McGill:
Even if it did put you square with the Lord, the state of Mississippi's a little more hardnosed.

That's one of the funniest and accurate exchanges I've ever enjoyed in a movie.

BTW, regarding the use of the word "hell" in the bible. I believe the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. I changed my belief from ECT to CI (conditional immortality - only the saved receive eternal life) 14 years ago.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

So once saved always saved?

Yep. The question is, is one actually saved? Language can be complicated. An example: If a thing is said to have been being destroyed, that means that its final condition would have to have been "destruction". Otherwise, the statement that it was being destroyed was not true. Perhaps a better wording would have been "being damaged". I don't believe one can be saved and then lose that salvation. I believe those that "lose their salvation" were never actually saved in the first place. Think of the seed thrown on the rocks in Matther 13:20.

However, I need to point out that this is only my opinion, and I see it as one of those "non-doctrinal*" beliefs.

* That is, my salvation doesn't depend on my belief on that subject. And with more study my opinion could change, possibly. Major beliefs that I held as a new Christian that have since changed are the belief in pre-tribulation rapture and belief in an Eternal Conscious Torment "hell" for those that die without accepting Jesus' free gift. I belief that there will be consequences for believers that die, as well as rewards. After all, 1 Cor 3: 10-15 is pretty clear (bold mine):

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

 

[Gary K]

Yep. The question is, is one actually saved? Language can be complicated. An example: If a thing is said to have been being destroyed, that means that its final condition would have to have been "destruction". Otherwise, the statement that it was being destroyed was not true. Perhaps a better wording would have been "being damaged". I don't believe one can be saved and then lose that salvation. I believe those that "lose their salvation" were never actually saved in the first place. Think of the seed thrown on the rocks in Matther 13:20.

However, I need to point out that this is only my opinion, and I see it as one of those "non-doctrinal*" beliefs.

* That is, my salvation doesn't depend on my belief on that subject. And with more study my opinion could change, possibly. Major beliefs that I held as a new Christian that have since changed are the belief in pre-tribulation rapture and belief in an Eternal Conscious Torment "hell" for those that die without accepting Jesus' free gift. I belief that there will be consequences for believers that die, as well as rewards. After all, 1 Cor 3: 10-15 is pretty clear (bold mine):

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

So what a Christian believes is irrelevant?

 

[Reasonably Sane]

So what a Christian believes is irrelevant?

No, but again, what does the "seed thrown on rock" believe?

 

[Gary K]

No, but again, what does the "seed thrown on rock" believe?

Are you talking about the parable of the sower and the rocky soil?

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Are you talking about the parable of the sower and the rocky soil?

Yes. Sorry for not clarifying. I just assumed it was intuitively obvious.

So, what does the "seed thrown on rock" believe?

 

[Lukaris]

How is it arrogance to quote scripture?

Out of context in regard to the Sunday worship it certainly is. You are basically saying Mary Magdalene was wrong to worship the risen Lord on the Resurrection Day ( Matthew 28:9). At this point it was the end of the sabbath ( Matthew 28:1). So you are quoting scripture against the worship of the Lord on the Resurrection day and randomly applying Daniel 7:24-25 as your support although you inadvertently (?) & incorrectly linked Daniel 9:24-25 to those verses or whatever you claim to say.

Who are you to speak against the Christians who embraced worship of the Lord on the Resurrection Day? The early Church knew what the prophet Isaiah said in Isaiah 1:13-17. This is echoed by St. Paul in Colossians 2:16-19.

I earlier demonstrated that the ancient church understood the Lord’s Day of Revelation 1:10 as the Resurrection Day of worship. To boot, I tried to stress I was not arguing against anyone who chooses to keep the Saturday sabbath. I was only defending the faith understanding of the Sunday worship.

 

[Gary K]

Out of context in regard to the Sunday worship it certainly is. You are basically saying Mary Magdalene was wrong to worship the risen Lord on the Resurrection Day ( Matthew 28:9). At this point it was the end of the sabbath ( Matthew 28:1). So you are quoting scripture against the worship of the Lord on the Resurrection day and randomly applying Daniel 7:24-25 as your support although you inadvertently (?) & incorrectly linked Daniel 9:24-25 to those verses or whatever you claim to say.

Who are you to speak against the Christians who embraced worship of the Lord on the Resurrection Day? The early Church knew what the prophet Isaiah said in Isaiah 1:13-17. This is echoed by St. Paul in Colossians 2:16-19.

I earlier demonstrated that the ancient church understood the Lord’s Day of Revelation 1:10 as the Resurrection Day of worship. To boot, I tried to stress I was not arguing against anyone who chooses to keep the Saturday sabbath. I was only defending the faith understanding of the Sunday worship.

Huh? How am I saying Mary Magdalene was wrong for instinctively falling at Jesus feet and worshiping Him? I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion.

Daniel 7:25 isn't an out of context quote.

I'm an SDA in case you didn't know, and that prophecy is related to Sunday worship and the beast power thinking to change times and laws. What is it other than to change times to change the Sabbath from one day to another. The RCC fully admits doing so. They claim the fact that they did so proves they have the power to do so. I don't see how anyone can claim that isn't done with hostility towards God.

I also believe God is just and everyone will have a chance to fully consider the issues before Sunday keeping becomes the mark of the beast. It's one reason I'm in this forum so people will have as long a time as possible to make up their minds as to what is true.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

BTW, regarding the use of the word "hell" in the bible. I believe the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment.

Well we agree on something!

If the lost burn in hell eternally, that makes them immortal and only God gives the saved immortality once He comes. I believe death will be an act of compassion and love. Not everyone will be happy in God's heavenly Kingdom, Lucifer wasn't and God would not want someone eternally unhappy. Why its important today to take on the image/character of God which is reflected through His holy law.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Well we agree on something!

If the lost burn in hell eternally, that makes them immortal and only God gives the saved immortality once He comes. I believe death will be an act of compassion and love. Not everyone will be happy in God's heavenly Kingdom, Lucifer wasn't and God would not want someone eternally unhappy. Why its important today to take on the image/character of God which is reflected through His holy law.

The more I think about it and read the bible, pray, and meditate on the purpose of life, the more I'm convinced our life in this reality is a form of boot camp. We're here to learn, and apply what we learn in eternity. I'm sure it's far complicated than that, but it's the best I can do with my limited information.