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The Sabbath Day

Jon0388g

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One more point to throw out: Didn't Paul say that the 'man of lawlessness' was already at work in his day?

"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God....for the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, 7
 
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reddogs

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One more point to throw out: Didn't Paul say that the 'man of lawlessness' was already at work in his day?

"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God....for the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, 7


You have the answer in front of you "for the mystery of lawlessness is already at work", that is the beliefs of the eastern religions of Babyon were already creaping into the church. It picked up and applied the beliefs of “Mystery” to its institution and teachings?

On her forehead was a name written: “Mystery, Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.” Revelation 17:5

"Mystery" is also the term used by the Roman Catholic Church to refer to the Mass, or the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. In the liturgy of the mass, the priest refers to the “Mystery of the Faith.” The Catholic rosary is also associated with the mysteries of the faith. There are 15 decades of prayer (150 recitations) and during each of these decades, one of the “mysteries” of the church is recalled. The Fifteen Mysteries of the Rosary are divided into three groups: the Joyful, the Sorrowful and the Glorious. The 5 Joyful Mysteries are: the Mystery of the Annunciation, the Mystery of the Visitation, the Mystery of the Birth of the Lord, the Mystery of the Presentation in the Temple and the Mystery of Finding Jesus in the Temple. The 5 Sorrowful Mysteries are: the Mystery of the Agony in the Garden, the Mystery of the Scourging at the Pillar, the Mystery of the Crowning with Thorns, the Mystery of Jesus carrying his cross and the Mystery of the Crucifixion. The 5 Glorious Mysteries are: the Mystery of the Resurrection, the Mystery of the Ascension of Our Lord, the Mystery of the Descent of the Holy Spirit, the Mystery of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin and the Mystery of the Coronation of the Blessed Virgin as Queen of Heaven.
 
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tall73

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I've got a few questions for both Tall and DL, who I think are looking at the same tree from different angles:

Tall:
  • The argument that Catholics use to say that the change originated from the time of the Apostles; do they have any proof for this? Why would it not be recorded in Scripture that they did so?
  • Dan 7:25 begins with 'He...' - refering to the little horn power. This 'He' speaks out against the Most High, wears down the saints, will intend to make alterations in times and law... - this 'He' power, we refer to as the 'anti-Christ.' From what I see, you and OntheDL need to clarify what is agreed is the anti-Christ - the Pope's themselves, or the whole system of the papacy? From Dan 7:25, the 'He' seems to fit with the latter.
  • Note Dan 7:25 says 'He' will 'intend' or 'think' to make changes to times and law; does this infer that the 'He' actually initiates the change? Does this infer that the 'He' attempts to make something official? The main point of contention here, is how we interpret the translation 'think to change' or 'intend to make alterations.' What do you think?
  • Even if Catholics claim that Christ handed down authority to Peter, does this mean that Peter acting on his own human will had authority to change the eternal Law of God?
OntheDL:
  • I do not think that Tall is presenting an anti-adventist argument. They would probably outright proclaim our discussion is futile since the Sabbath is Christ Himself, or that it has long since been abolished.
  • The CC does claim the change was officiated by her, and I do agree with you on this. But, how do we address Catholics who make their argument (with historical sources) that Sunday observance originated way earlier than any Pope declared it official?
  • What do you think of the 'intend'/'think' to change times and laws translation and how we interpret that?
  • Even if Sunday observance was practiced by some early Christians, then would this even rule out the fact that the Papacy as described in Dan 7:25 would 'think' to change times and laws, seeing as the CC openly admits that it has?
  • On a side note, YOU were an atheist?? Wow! Talk about much to learn and unlearn!
I think nobody is disagreeing here on the identity of the little horn, and the eternity of the Sabbath.

Jon
Jon

I actually quite agree with you. That is why I was recapping my arguments before. I do still hold to the traditional view on the anti-christ.

Obviously I don't agree with the evidence that it was original. In fact I think the rather confused reasons they give, starting only in the second century, make this unlikely. But we do have to deal with the early texts, which to me is a much bigger deal than any papal statement, which they interpret far differently than we do. They believe the church changed it originally. I, and of course Adventists, disagree.

You can see my larger analysis here if you haven't already:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=24304281&postcount=12

Here is my summary statement from the study (which I need to update a bit by the way, and would be happy to include the Sylvester references if I can confirm them):

To sum up the evidence, we see no definite statements establishing Sunday in the NT, or evidence of its continued observance. There is also a confused rationale among early adherents to Sunday. And even the earliest dated documents are likely a part of the second century, or very near to it. This evidence together gives a strong indication that Sunday was not part of the original deposit of faith. And in any case, Sabbath, being kept alongside it by many, and being kept for hundreds of years, was not apparently done away with either at the resurrection of Jesus.

As to initiating the change, agreed. I have no issue with the thought that the pope eventually declaring something. I just feel that we need to have rock solid references to tie it to specific actions, rather than the long process that most Catholics understand it to be. But the emphasis for those who know history still must be on the early documents, because they view it as a recognition.

Finally, as to the authority of Peter, the claim is simply that Peter would not be acting on his own but by the authority of Christ. Of course I debate that in GT as well.

I am glad you essentially summarized the views from an outside perspective, because I am struggling to find out how my view is anti-Adventist, other than that I stress the earlier documents because that is where the debate is with those who are knowledgable on history.

I think if we are going to address people who know what is going on we have to take seriously their arguments and then address them completely, using sources we can both agree on. Otherwise, why would they listen?

Thanks Jon. I think you presented a balanced view.




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reddogs

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With Credit to Palehorse:

60 Bible Facts on the Seventh-day of the Week (Saturday)
1. After working the first six days of the week in creating this earth, God rested on the seventh day. Genesis 2:1-3.
2. This stamped that day as God's rest day, or Sabbath day, as Sabbath day means rest day. To illustrate: When a person is born on a certain day, that day becomes his birthday. So when God rested upon the seventh day, that day became His rest, or Sabbath, day.
3. Therefore the seventh day must always be God's Sabbath day. Can you change your birthday from the day on which you were born to one on which you were not born? No. Neither can you change God's rest day to a day on which He did not rest. Hence the seventh day is still God's Sabbath day.
4. The Creator blessed the seventh day. Genesis 2:3.
5. He sanctified the seventh day. Exodus 20:11.
6. He made it the Sabbath day in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 2:1-3.
7. It was made before the fall; hence it is not a type; for types were not introduced till after the fall.
8. Jesus says it was made for man, that is, for the race, as the word man is here unlimited; hence, for the Gentile as well as for the Jew. Mark 2:27.
9. Not only is the Sabbath made for man, but Jesus said that He was Lord of the Sabbath. Mark 2:28.
10. It is a memorial of creation. Exodus 20:11; 31:17. Every time we rest upon the seventh day, as God did at creation, we commemorate that grand event.
11. It was given to Adam, the head of the human race. Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3.
12. It is not a Jewish institution, for it was made 2,300 years before ever there was a Jew.
13. The Bible never calls it the Jewish Sabbath, but always "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God."
14. Evident reference is made to the Sabbath and the seven-day week all through the patriarchal age. Genesis 2:1-3; 8:10,12; 29:27,28, etc.
15. It was a part of God's law before Sinai. Exodus 16:4,23-29.
16. Then God placed it in the heart of His moral law. Exodus 20:1-17. Why did He place it there if it was not like the other nine precepts, which all admit to be immutable?
17. The seventh-day Sabbath was commanded by the voice of the living God. Deuteronomy 4:12,13.
18. Then He wrote the commandment with His own finger. Exodus 31:18.
19. He engraved it in the enduring stone, indicating its imperishable nature. Deuteronomy 5:22.
20. It was sacredly preserved in the ark in the holy of holies. Deuteronomy 10:1-5.
21. God forbade work upon the Sabbath, even in the most hurrying times. Exodus 34:21.
22. God destroyed the Israelites in the wilderness because they profaned the Sabbath. Ezekiel 20:12,13.
23. It is the sign of the true God, by which we are to know Him from the false gods. Ezekiel 20:20.
24. God promised that Jerusalem should stand forever if the Jews would keep the Sabbath. Jeremiah 17:24,25.
25. He sent them into the Babylonish captivity for breaking it. Nehemiah 13:18.
26. He destroyed Jerusalem for its violation. Jeremiah 17:27.
27. God has pronounced a special blessing on all the Gentiles who will keep it. Isaiah 56:6,7.
28. This is in the prophecy which refers wholly to the Christian dispensation. See Isaiah 56.
29. God has promised to bless all who keep the Sabbath. Isaiah 56:2.
30. The Lord requires us to call it "honourable." Isaiah 58:13 Beware, you who take delight in calling it the "old Jewish Sabbath," "a yoke of bondage," etc
31. After the holy Sabbath has been trodden down "many generations," it is to be restored in the last days. Isaiah 58:12,13.
32. All the holy prophets kept the seventh day.
33. When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. Luke 4:16; John 15:10. Thus He followed His Father's example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son?
 
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reddogs

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34. The seventh day is the Lord's day. See Revelation 1:10; Mark 2:28; Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 20:10.
35. Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28), that is, to love and protect it, as the husband is the lord of the wife, to love and cherish her. 1 Peter 3:6.
36. He vindicated the Sabbath as a merciful institution designed for man's good. Mark 2:23-28.
37. Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, He carefully taught how it should be observed. Matthew 12:1-13.
38. He taught His disciples that they should do nothing upon the Sabbath day but what was "lawful." Matthew 12:12.
39. He instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection. Matthew 24:20.
40. The pious women who had been with Jesus carefully kept the seventh day after His death. Luke 23:56.
41. Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it "the sabbath day." Acts 13:14.
42. Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, called it the "sabbath day" in A.D. 45. Acts 13:27. Did not Paul know? Or shall we believe modern teachers, who affirm that it ceased to be the Sabbath at the resurrection of Christ?
43. Luke, the inspired Christian historian, writing as late as A.D. 62, calls it the "sabbath day." Acts 13:44.
44. The Gentile converts called it the Sabbath. Acts 13:42.
45. In the great Christian council, A.D. 49, in the presence of the apostles and thousands of disciples, James calls it the "sabbath day." Acts 15:21.
46. It was customary to hold prayer meetings upon that day. Acts 16:13.
47. Paul read the Scriptures in public meetings on that day. Acts 17:2,3.
48. It was his custom to preach upon that day. Acts 17:2,3.
49. The Book of Acts alone gives a record of his holding eighty-four meetings upon that day. See Acts 13:14,44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4,11.
50. There was never any dispute between the Christians and the Jews about the Sabbath day. This is proof that the Christians still observed the same day that the Jews did.
51. In all their accusations against Paul, they never charged him with disregarding the Sabbath day. Why did they not, if he did not keep it?
52. But Paul himself expressly declared that he had kept the law. "Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all." Acts 25:8. How could this be true if he had not kept the Sabbath?
53. The Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament fifty-nine times, and always with respect, bearing the same title it had in the Old Testament, "the sabbath day."
54. Not a word is said anywhere in the New Testament about the Sabbath's being abolished, done away, changed, or anything of the kind.
55. God has never given permission to any man to work upon it. Reader, by what authority do you use the seventh day for common labor?
56. No Christian of the New Testament, either before or after the resurrection, ever did ordinary work upon the seventh day. Find one case of the kind, and we will yield the question. Why should modern Christians do differently from Bible Christians?
57. There is no record that God has ever removed His blessing or sanctification from the seventh day.
58. As the Sabbath was kept in Eden before the fall, so it will be observed eternally in the new earth after the restitution. Isaiah 66:22,23.
59. The seventh-day Sabbath was an important part of the law of God, as it came from His own mouth, and was written by His own finger upon stone at Sinai. See Exodus 20. When Jesus began His work, He expressly declared that He had not come to destroy the law. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets." Matthew 5:17.
60. Jesus severely condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites for pretending to love God, while at the same time they made void one of the Ten Commandments by their tradition. The keeping of Sunday is only a tradition of men.
 
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O

OntheDL

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It's not a new revelation that the early christians observed sunday, began with observing both days. But there were only pockets of them, starting in Rome and Alexandria. Constantine made it a day of civil observence and rest. But it was never codified and enforced throughout the christiandom until the Papal decree. Use a simple logic...some states in US recognize same sex marriage. But until a federal law is passed, it is not considered legal in America as a whole.

'...think to change...' The obvious answer is the Law of God is immutable, unchangeable despite the attempts of men.

The key issue is if they can show the change was done by the early christians, not the Catholic church, then they can begin to weaken the foundation upon which the 'Little Horn Power' is identified. Have we seen these such attempts already? The jesuit inspired Futurist and Preterist interpretation both absolve the papacy from this little horn power.

Yeah, I was an atheist. To my advantage, actually I had less to unlearn: none of the religious confusions.

Peter was never the Pope in Rome. No scriptural reference. And he was married. He did go to Rome. But during his time, the church in Jerusalem was the 'home' church. Paul brought controversial issues to Jerusalem to settle. And notice in Acts 15, Peter was not even the head of the church in Jerusalem. It was James who gave conclusion of the so-called council of Jerusalem.

There was a magician, Simon Magus Peter, who tried to buy the holy spirit from the apostles, went to Rome. He charmed the Romans with his magic that they made him a god and erected a statue for him. He started a sect of christian religion that had so many followers that it dwarfed the apostles' religion.

The bible says the dragon gave its power, seat and great authority. So according to the Bible, this beast of Revelation 13, littel horn power was never a Christian organization. So who was this 'Peter'? One can speculate.

About the sabbath-sunday issue...for the SDAs without a doubt we know who the Little Horn Power is from all the identifying characteristics. Dan 7:25 he shall speak against the most high...he shall think to change times and laws... What times did God set? Change the biblical/jewish calendar to Roman calender? Change from the jewish feasts to the secular/Roman holidays? Or the day that God sanctified and set apart for eternity?

The answer is obvious: the roman calendar does not effect our worship of God. The jewish feasts are not binding on the new christians. Only the 7th day sabbath, the perpetual sign between God and His people. I think Bible alone does a pretty good job to prove this point.

For the SDAs who made baptismal vows to recognize the spirit of prophecy, it clarifies Dan 7:25---the papacy changed the sabbath to sunday. At this point, if the history is silent: no historic doc's or proof, there is enough to believe what the bible has revealed on this.

Faith involves the element of unseen. 'I gotta know everything before I can believe.' Then you will NEVER believe.

If the inspiration is not clear enough, history speaks volume on this. The Roman Catholic Church proudly claims the change was her act: the mark of the church authority over the bible. And Catholic document points to which Pope made the decree. Who but the universal church has the power to enforce the way of worship and to correct all heretics?

So what does it matter when and how the practice began but who signed it into law under the penalty of death?

The Jesuits' art of war is confusion. By attacking a person's credibility, his/her teaching is comprised. By focusing on obscure and inconsequential issues, the real issue is void.

For over 1000 years, Europe lived in darkness, spiritually and intellectually. But after the dawn of the Reformation, after the bible was translated into common people's native languages, there came the secular learning, renaissance, Shakespeare... For one purpose: compete with bible learning.

Not allowing doubt? Faith and doubt can not co-exist. When faith is weak, doubts naturally arise.
 
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Sophia7

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Peter was never the Pope in Rome. No scriptural reference. And he was married. He did go to Rome. But during his time, the church in Jerusalem was the 'home' church. Paul brought controversial issues to Jerusalem to settle. And notice in Acts 15, Peter was not even the head of the church in Jerusalem. It was James who gave conclusion of the so-called council of Jerusalem.

I agree with most of this, but one thing needs to be clarified. It wouldn't have mattered at that time if Peter were married; that's not a relevant argument against the claim that he was the first pope. Celibacy of priests and bishops wasn't mandatory until later. This is something that also developed over time and was not original. Even today it is not doctrine but practice in the Latin Rite Church, and Eastern Rite Catholics do not require it.
HISTORY OF CLERICAL CELIBACY

First Period

Turning now to the historical development of the present law of celibacy, we must necessarily begin with St. Paul's direction (1 Timothy 3:2, 12, and Titus 1:6) that a bishop or a deacon should be "the husband of one wife". These passages seem fatal to any contention that celibacy was made obligatory upon the clergy from the beginning, but on the other hand, the Apostle's desire that other men might be as himself (1 Corinthians 7:7-8), already quoted) precludes the inference that he wished all ministers of the Gospel to be married. The words beyond doubt mean that the fitting candidate was a man, who, amongst other qualities which St. Paul enunciates as likely to make his authority respected, possessed also such stability of divorce, by remaining faithful to one wife. The direction is therefore restrictive, no injunctive; it excludes men who have married more than once, but it does not impose marriage as a necessary condition. This freedom of choice seems to have lasted during the whole of what we may call, with Vacandard, the first period of the Church's legislation, i.e. down to about the time of Constantine and the Council of Nicaea.

A strenuous attempt has indeed been made by some writers, of whom the late Professor Bickell was the most distinguished, to prove that even at this early date the Church exacted celibacy of all her ministers of the higher grades. But the contrary view, represented by such scholars as Funk and Kraus, seems much better founded and has won general acceptance of recent years. It is not, of course, disputed that all times virginity was held in honour, and that in particular large numbers of the clergy practised it or separated from their wives if they were already married. Tertullian comments with admiration upon the number of those in sacred orders who have embraced continence (De exhortatione castitatis, cap. xiii), while Origen seems to contrast the spiritual offspring of the priests of the New Law with the natural offspring begotten in wedlock by the priests of the Old (In Levit. Hom. vi, no. 6). Clearly, however, there is nothing in this or similar language which could be considered decisive, and Bickell, in support of his thesis, found it needful to appeal mainly to the testimony of writers of the fourth and fifth century. Thus Eusebius declares that it is befitting that priests and those occupied in the ministry should observe continence (Demonst. Evangel., I, C. ix), and St. Cyril of Jerusalem urges that the minister of the altar who serves God properly holds himself aloof from women (Cat. xii, 25). St. Jerome further seems to speak of a custom generally observed when he declares that clerics, "even though they may have wives, cease to be husbands".

But the passage most confidently appealed to is one of St. Epiphanius where the holy doctor first of all speaks of the accepted ecclesiastical rule of the priesthood (kanona tes ierosynes) as something established by the Apostles (Haer., xlviii, 9), and then in a later passage seems to describe this rule or canon in some detail. "Holy Church", he says, "respects the dignity of the priesthood to such a point that she does not admit to the diaconate, the priesthood, or the episcopate, no nor even to the subdiaconate, anyone still living in marriage and begetting children. She accepts only him who if married gives up his wife or has lost her by death, especially in those places where the ecclesiastical cannons are strictly attended to" (Haer., lix, 4). Epiphanius goes on, however, to explain that there are localities in which priests and deacons continue to have children, but he argues against the practice as most unbecoming and urges that the Church under the guidance of the Holy Ghost has always in the past shown her disapproval of such procedure. But we need hardly insist that all this is very inadequate evidence (even when supplemented by some few citations from St. Ephraem and other Orientals) to support the contention that a general rule of celibacy existed from Apostolic times. Writers in the fourth century were prone to describe many practices (e.g. the Lenten fast of forty days) as of Apostolic institution which certainly had no claim to be so regarded. On the other hand, there are facts which tell the other way. The statement of Clement of Alexandria at an earlier date is open to no ambiguity. After commenting on the texts of St. Paul noted above, and expressing his veneration for a life of chastity, Clement adds: "All the same, the Church fully receives the husband of one wife whether he be priest or deacon or layman, supposing always that he uses his marriage blamelessly, and such a one shall be saved in the begetting of children" (Stromateiae, III, xiii).

Not less explicit is the testimony given by the church historian, Socrates. He declares that in the Eastern Churches neither priests nor even bishops were bound to separate from their wives, though he recognized that a different custom obtained in Thessaly and in Greece (H.E., Bk. I, cap. xi). . . .

Second Period

In the history of clerical celibacy conciliar legislation marks the second period during which the law took definite shape both in the East and in the West. The earliest enactment on the subject is that of the Spanish Council of Elvira (between 295 and 302) in canon xxxiii. It imposes celibacy upon the three higher orders of the clergy, bishops, priests, and deacons. If they continue to live with their wives and beget children after their ordination they are to be deposed. This would seem to have been the beginning of the divergence in this matter between East and West. If we may trust the account of Socrates, just quoted, an attempt was made at the Council of Nicaea, (perhaps by Bishop Osius who had also sat at Elvira) to impose a law similar to that passed in the Spanish council. But Paphnutius, as we have seen, argued against it, and the Fathers of Nicaea were content with the prohibition expressed in the third canon which forbade mulieres subintroductas. No bishop, priest, or deacon was to have any woman living in the house with him, unless it were his mother, sister, or aunt, or at any rate persons against whom no suspicion could lodge. But the account of Socrates at the same time shows that marriage on the part of those who were already bishops or priests was not contemplated; in fact, that it was assumed to be contrary to the tradition of the Church. This is again what we learn from the Council of Ancyra in Galatia, in 314 (canon x), and of Neo-Caesarea in Cappadocia, in 315 (canon i). The latter canon absolutely forbids a priest to contract a new marriage under the pain of deposition; the former forbids even a deacon to contract marriage, if at the moment of his ordination he made no reservation as to celibacy. Supposing, however, that he protested at the time that a celibate life was above his strength, the decrees of Ancyra allow him to marry subsequently, as having tacictly received the permission of the ordaining bishop. There is nothing here which of itself forbids even a bishop to retain his wife, if he were married before ordination. In this respect the law, as observed in the Eastern Churches, was drawn gradually tighter. Justinian's Code of Civil Law would not allow anyone who had children or even nephews to be consecrated bishop, for fear that natural affection should warp his judgment. The Apostolic Constitutions (c. 400), which formed the principal factor of the church law of the East, are not particularly rigid on the point of celibacy, but whether through imperial influence or not the Council of Trullo, in 692, finally adopted a somewhat stricter view. Celibacy in a bishop became a matter of precept. If he were previously married, he had at once to separate from his wife upon his consecration. On the other hand, this council, while forbidding priests, deacons, and subdeacons to take a wife after ordination, asserts in emphatic terms their right and duty to continue in conjugal relations with the wife to whom they had been wedded previously. This canon (xiii of Trullo) still makes the law for the great majority of the Churches of the East, though some of the Eastern Catholic communions have adopted the Western discipline.

In Latin Christendom, however, everything was ripe for a stricter law. We have already spoken of the Council of Elvira, and this does not seem to have been an isolated expression of opinion. "As a rule", remarks Bishop Wordsworth from his anti-celibate standpoint, "the great writers of the fourth and fifth century pressed celibacy as the more excellent way with an unfair and misleading emphasis which led to the gravest and moral mischief and loss of power in the Church." (The Ministry of Grace, 1902, p. 223). This, one would think, must be held to relieve the papacy of some of the onus which modern critics would thrust upon it in this matter. Such writers as St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, St. Hilary, etc., could hardly be described as acting in collusion with the supposed ambitious projects of the Holy See to enslave and denationalize the local clergy. Although it is true that at the close of the fourth century, as we may learn from St. Ambrose (De Officiis, I, l), some married clergy were still to be found, especially in the outlying country districts, many laws then enacted were strong in favour of celibacy. At a Roman council held by Pope Siricius in 386 an edict was passed forbidding priests and deacons to have conjugal intercourse with their wives (Jaffe-Löwenfeld, Regesta, I, 41), and the pope took steps to have the decree enforced in Spain and in other parts of Christendom (Migne, P.L., LVI, 558 and 728). Africa and Gaul, as we learn from the canons of various synods, seem to have been earnest in the same movement, and though we hear of some mitigation of the severity of the ordinance of Elvira, was enforced against transgressors than that if they took back their wives they were declared incapable of promotion to any higher grade, it may fairly be said that by the time of St. Leo the Great the law of celibacy was generally recognized in the West.
OntheDL said:
For the SDAs who made baptismal vows to recognize the spirit of prophecy, it clarifies Dan 7:25---the papacy changed the sabbath to sunday. At this point, if the history is silent: no historic doc's or proof, there is enough to believe what the bible has revealed on this.

That's not the point. You can't use those sorts of arguments with non-Adventists. How well do you think that would go over in GT? We can't credibly defend our beliefs on the Sabbath to others unless we acknowledge their real issues with it. Oh, and by the way, I do uphold the Sabbath, and I have argued for it many times in GT.

OntheDL said:
Faith involves the element of unseen. 'I gotta know everything before I can believe.' Then you will NEVER believe.

None of us are saying that we have to know everything before we believe, but faith isn't completely blind either. If everything were completely clear with no room for doubt, there would be no need for faith in the first place. If our beliefs are true, they will stand the test of investigation, and we will come out with a stronger faith.

OntheDL said:
So what does it matter when and how the practice began but who signed it into law under the penalty of death?

The Jesuits' art of war is confusion. By attacking a person's credibility, his/her teaching is comprised. By focusing on obscure and inconsequential issues, the real issue is void.

It matters because you can't convince anyone to whom these issues are important of the validity of your arguments if you don't understand their arguments. These are not inconsequential details.
 
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reddogs

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Acts 20:29-31
29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Here is a good description of what happened in the early church by John Grosboll:

"...The apostle Paul also referred to this apostasy in his last interview with the elders at Ephesus. In Acts 20:29–31, where the discussion is recorded, notice several interesting details about what Paul predicted was going to take place. "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears."

We see in this passage of Scripture that the greatest danger for the Christian church was not the opposition from the pagan world outside, but from the apostasy which would take place inside...."

"...There is another consideration that made this danger even more perilous. Do you know who these words were spoken to? They were spoken to the bishops, the Christian ministers or elders of the church. Paul said, "Of your own selves," that is from among the men who had been chosen to guide and care for the church of Christ, there would be those who would pervert their calling in order to build up themselves and gather disciples around themselves...."

"...As we read the letters of the apostles in the New Testament, we see them constantly watching this spirit, checking its influence and guarding against its workings. As stated in 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the mystery of iniquity was already working. There were at that very time elements abroad which the apostle Paul could see would develop into all that the Scriptures had predicted, and scarcely were the apostles dead when this evil actually appeared in the church.

The historian said about this: "No sooner were the apostles removed from the stage of action, no sooner was their watchful attentions gone and their apostolic authority removed, than this very thing appeared of which the apostle had spoken. Certain bishops, in order to make easier the conversion of the heathen, to multiply disciples, and by this increase their own influence and authority, began to adopt heathen customs and forms." The Great Empires of Prophecy, 377, by Alonzo T. Jones.

How did this great apostasy begin? It started as a gigantic evangelistic campaign. It was in the interest of evangelism that apostasy began. "In order to make easier the conversion of the heathen, to multiply disciples," they lowered the standard for church fellowship. Within twenty years of the apostles’ death, the perversion of the truth of Christ had become widespread.

Mosheim writes concerning the developments in Christendom in the second century: "It is certain that to religious worship, both public and private, many rites were added, without necessity, and to the offence of sober and good men."

The reason for this is stated. "The Christians were pronounced atheists, because they were destitute of temples, altars, victims, priests, and all that pomp in which the vulgar suppose the essence of religion to consist. For unenlightened persons are prone to estimate religion by what meets their eyes. To silence this accusation, the Christian doctors thought it necessary to introduce some external rights, which would strike the senses of the people, so that they could maintain themselves really to possess those things of which Christians were charged with being destitute—though under different forms." Ecclesiastical History, century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 1, 3.

To do this, "was at once to accommodate the Christian worship and its forms to that of the heathen, and was almost at one step to heathenize Christianity. No heathen element or form can be connected with Christianity or its worship, and Christianity remain pure." The Great Empires of Prophecy, 378. In Old Testament times whenever God’s people attempted to combine any of the forms of idolatry or heathenism with the worship of the true God they were charged by the prophet with committing spiritual adultery. (See Ezekiel 16, 23; Hosea.)

The heathen religions, in the early part of the second century, were almost all centered around sun worship. They worshipped at the dawning of the day facing towards the east. And this was one of the first pagan customs that entered the Christian church. Christians began to meet at the rising of the sun, on what was later called Easter Sunday, and they would say, "This is the time when Christ was resurrected, and we will teach the people that we meet at the rising of the sun, not to worship the sun, but to worship the One who was raised at sunrise."

Mosheim again says, "Before the coming of Christ, all the Eastern nations performed divine worship with their faces turned to that part of the heavens where the sun displays his rising beams . . . Nor is this custom abolished even in our times, but still prevails in a great number of Christian churches." Ecclesiastical History, century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 7.

The path of compromise, once you start down it, seems like it never ends. In addition to this, the day of the sun was adopted as a festival day, and the people were taught to fast on the Sabbath.

The forms of sun worship were practiced to such a degree in the "Christian" churches, that before the end of the second century the heathen themselves accused these apostate Christians with worshipping the sun. We know this because one of the Christian fathers, who wrote about A.D. 200, considered it necessary to make a defense of this practice. Here is what he said: "Others again, certainly with more information and greater or veri-similitude believe that the sun is our god . . . The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn toward the east in prayer. But you, many of you, also under pretense sometimes of worshipping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way if we devote Sunday to rejoicing, from a far different reason than sun worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury." Apology, chap. 16, by Tertullian. His argument is, in effect, you do the same thing, and you originated it too, so why are you blaming us?

As these customs spread, so did the number of pagan practices introduced in the church. It was the custom of the Jewish Christians to remember the death and resurrection of Christ during the Passover season. Passover, which was on the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year, would fall on different days of the week each year. Rome, however, and from her all the Western Empire, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. Rome ruled that the celebration must always be on a Sunday. It was on this point that the bishop of Rome made one of the first claims at absolute power in his attempt to compel obedience.
We do not know precisely when this practice began, but it was practiced in Rome as early as the time of Sixtus the First, who was the bishop of Rome from A.D. 119 to 128. It was promoted by his successor, Antecedus, who was bishop of Rome A.D. 157-158. Here is what the historian has to say about him: He "would neither conform to that [Eastern] custom himself, nor suffer any under his jurisdiction to conform to it, obliging them to celebrate that solemnity on the Sunday next following the fourteenth of the month." History of the Popes Under Pius and Anicetus, by Bower.

By the close of the second century, Victor, the bishop of Rome from 192 to 202 A.D., wrote a letter to the Asiatic Christian clergy "commanding them to imitate the example of the Western Christians with respect to the time of celebrating the festival of Easter. The Asiatics answered this lordly request through Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, who declared in their name, with great spirit and resolution, that they would by no means depart, in this manner from the custom handed down to them by their ancestors." Ecclesiastical History, century 2, part 2, chapter 4, par. 11, by Mosheim.

As a result, Victor began to use the weapon of excommunication, broke communion with them, pronounced them unworthy of the name of brethren and excluded them from all fellowship with the Church of Rome. Victor I, bishop of Rome, had entered into a compact with Clement, before this about 190, to carry on research around the Mediterranean basin to secure support to help make Sunday the prominent day of worship in the church. Sunday was already a day exalted among the heathen, being a day on which they worshiped the sun; yet Rome and Alexandria well knew that most of the churches throughout the world sanctified Saturday as the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Fourth, when Victor I, pronounced excommunication on all the churches of the East who would not with him make Easter always come on Sunday, Alexandria supported this first exhibition of spiritual tyranny by the bishop of Rome.

By the end of the second century, and even more in the third century, it was difficult to distinguish between paganism and this kind of Christianity. During this time, pagan philosophy came in with full force. A school of pagan philosophy, called the Eclectics, sprang up in Egypt. They were called Platonists, and they regarded Plato as the one person above all others who had attained the nearest to truth. It was from these philosophers that a system of allegorizing and mystification of Scripture evolved...."
 
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OntheDL

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I agree with most of this, but one thing needs to be clarified. It wouldn't have mattered at that time if Peter were married; that's not a relevant argument against the claim that he was the first pope. Celibacy of priests and bishops wasn't mandatory until later. This is something that also developed over time and was not original. Even today it is not doctrine but practice in the Latin Rite Church, and Eastern Rite Catholics do not require it.
Agreed.

That's not the point. You can't use those sorts of arguments with non-Adventists. How well do you think that would go over in GT? We can't credibly defend our beliefs on the Sabbath to others unless we acknowledge their real issues with it. Oh, and by the way, I do uphold the Sabbath, and I have argued for it many times in GT.
I'm not talking to non-adventists, am I? I'm talking to professed SDAs in regard to the statements made by a retired SDA professor of theology who contradicts the spirit of prophecy which professed SDAs are supposed to hold as authoritative.

None of us are saying that we have to know everything before we believe, but faith isn't completely blind either. If everything were completely clear with no room for doubt, there would be no need for faith in the first place. If our beliefs are true, they will stand the test of investigation, and we will come out with a stronger faith.
The doctrines of the bible needs no proof from historic record or science. Both involve man's effort which is error prone. It'd be nice but not necessary.

It matters because you can't convince anyone to whom these issues are important of the validity of your arguments if you don't understand their arguments. These are not inconsequential details.

Of course if the argument is genuine and important. But not in this case. Again, would you defend someone who proudly admits the guilt? That was looking for a way out.
 
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