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The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by sunlover1 Because a different contractor built each wall.
And even though their RULE was the same (standard tape),
THEY stink at measuring.
There, that's much easier to understand.

then they are following teachings of men?
:)
Whatda you and others make of Revelation 21:17 :wave:

Reve 21:15 And the one talking with me had measure reed, golden, that he should be measuring the City and the gates of Her and the wall of Her
16 And the City four cornered is-lying, and the length of Her as much as, and the breadth. And he measures the City to the reed on stadia twelve thousands the length and the breath and the height of Her equals is
17 And he measures the wall of Her, hundred forty four of cubits, measure of man, which is of a Messenger.
[Ephesian 3:17-19/Revelation 11:1]
 
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Meepy

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Both scripture, Church, and tradition have a norming process. They both equally coincide with each other. They are both gifts and tools that God gave us. As the ancient fathers stated, one cannot have God as Father if they do not have Church as mother.

Shall we follow in the spirit of Korah and reject the priesthood and the hierarchy of the Church? Before the OT was fully completed during the time of Ezra, oral tradition ruled the land of the Jews. Abraham, Issac and Jacob all relied on Jewish oral tradition. And this tradition became the foundation for the OT. God, knowing the limits of the human language and linguistics at the time revealed his message in a way that was palpable for the Hebrews at that time. And during that time it was oral memory and the transferring of scattered scrolls of this tradition which eventually led to the library of scripture that Jeremiah found and brought together. It was till only after the exile that written scripture became a stable regarding God's word.
 
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razeontherock

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Both scripture, Church, and tradition have a norming process. They both equally coincide with each other. They are both gifts and tools that God gave us. As the ancient fathers stated, one cannot have God as Father if they do not have Church as mother.

Shall we follow in the spirit of Korah and reject the priesthood and the hierarchy of the Church?

Hm, G-d KILLED Korah. Your analogy is FAIL, since instead of that happening, He Blesses those you accuse. Seems you might do better at keeping up with the times?
 
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Meepy

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Hm, G-d KILLED Korah. Your analogy is FAIL, since instead of that happening, He Blesses those you accuse. Seems you might do better at keeping up with the times?

He blessed the reformation with the 30 years war and the Peasants war? and the general upheaval and scandal of Christendom? doesn't sound like much of a blessing but rather more of a retribution for causing schism.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Apologetic Warrior, a Calvinist, posted this in another thread. I think it's helpful.



"Having indicated what sola Scriptura is, we must also discuss what it is not. Sola Scriptura is often misunderstood and misrepresented. I am dismayed and angered whenever I read Catholic literature on this subject because more often then not they are attacking a straw man.

Sola Scriptura is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge. The Bible does not give exhaustive details on the history of redemption. John 21:25 says that not all that Jesus did is recorded in the book; all the books of the world would not be enough for that purpose. But the Bible does not have to be exhaustive to function as the sole rule of faith for the church. We need 'enough' knowledge not 'exhaustive' knowledge. Sometimes Catholic apologists argue for the need of tradition, saying that Bible does not record everything. Apparently they do not realize that tradition is not exhaustive either! Does tradition give us all possible information about the life of Christ, and all that He said, and all the apostles did and said? Of course not! In fact, we would respectfully challenge our Catholic friends to give us one statement that Jesus said that comes to us by tradition and not from the Holy Scripture.

Sola Scriptura is not a denial of the church's authority to teach God's revelation. The Church is 'the pillar and foundation of the truth' (I Timothy 3:15) because it upholds and teaches the Word of God. However the church cannot add doctrines of human origin or contradict the God-breathed Scriptures. The church's authority is subordinate to the authority of the Bible. Moreover, the church is commissioned to preach the Word orally, and to transmit the Christian Gospel from one generation to the next. The most enthusiastic proponents of sola Scriptura do so eagerly and do their best to make sure that their preaching is consistent with the written Word of God.

Sola Scriptura is not a denial that historically God's Word came in other ways other than the written form. Before writing down His message, God spoke through the apostles and prophets, and personally in Christ Jesus, His Son. During the same time the Holy Spirit moved holy men to write down His Word to be the permanent inspired record of His message for the post-apostolic age till the end. The apostles and prophets are the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20) and though they are absent, we can still build our lives on their teaching which is recorded infallibly in the Holy Scriptures. - Dr Joe Mizzi






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razeontherock

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Didn't see this until now:

He blessed the reformation with the 30 years war and the Peasants war? and the general upheaval and scandal of Christendom? doesn't sound like much of a blessing but rather more of a retribution for causing schism.

Obviously it was a better choice than staying under Rome's thumb. Which should be obvious.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Sola Scriptura -- the practice of using Scripture as the only rule in matters regarding the Christian faith... a practice that is difficult to start without using a source outside of Scripture to define what Scripture consists of... in fact, to say you practice 'Sola Scriptura' is somewhat self-contradictory.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.310-386):

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.
(Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1983 reprint], Second Series, Vol. VII, p. 23.)

St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):

...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.
(On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)

St. Gregory of Nyssa:

Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.
(On the Holy Trinity, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)




.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Sola Scriptura -- the practice of using Scripture as the only rule in matters regarding the Christian faith... a practice that is difficult to start without using a source outside of Scripture to define what Scripture consists of... in fact, to say you practice 'Sola Scriptura' is somewhat self-contradictory.
What sources does your Denomination use? Just curious :groupray:
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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These were not Sola Scriptura adherents


So, they embraced and affirmed Sola Scriptura (in words nearly INDENTICAL to the opening post) but they rejected what they affirmed, in your opinion. Okay. Your opinion is noted. Thank you.

The quotes from these EO Church Fathers are given as good examples of what is and is not Sola Scriptura - the sole topic of this thread. They describe it very well.




[quote]What sources does your Denomination use?[/quote]


Note the opening post. If possible, let's stick to THIS rubric.

THIS thread is about Rule of Scripture.

Thank you!








.
 
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heymikey80

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Sola Scriptura -- the practice of using Scripture as the only rule in matters regarding the Christian faith... a practice that is difficult to start without using a source outside of Scripture to define what Scripture consists of... in fact, to say you practice 'Sola Scriptura' is somewhat self-contradictory.
Well, starting with the wrong definition often ends with the wrong conclusion.

Fact is, none of the major Reformers defined it this way. And none meant it this way.

The point is to treat Scripture as the only infallible source of authority in matters of Christian faith and practice.

It's not the sole source -- it's the sole infallible source.

It's not the sole source of information. It's the sole source of authority.

It's not the sole source in all respects. It's the sole source in matters of faith and practice.

And it's not as if no one has mentioned this before. It's just that it hasn't changed the comments of those who should've been informed by the notification.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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The opening post....






The Rule of Scripture in Norming (What Luther and Calvin called "Sola Scriptura")




The Definition:


The Rule of Scripture is the practice of embracing Scripture as the rule ("straight edge") - canon ("measuring stick") - norma normans (the norm that norms) as it is called in epistemology, as we examine and evaluate the positions (especially doctrines) among us.


Here is the official, historic definition:
"The Scriptures are and should remain the sole rule in the norming of all doctrine among us" (Lutheran Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Rule and Norm, 9). "We pledge ourselves to the prophetic and apostolic writings of the Old and New Testaments as the pure and clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true norm according to which all teachers and teachings are to be judged" (ditto, 3).




What it IS
:

1. An embrace of accountability for the doctrines among us (especially those in dispute).


2. An embrace of norming (the process of examining positions for truth, correctness, validity).


3. An embrace of Scripture as the best, most sound rule/canon/norma normans for this process.



What it is NOT
:

1. A teaching that all revelation or truth is found in Scripture. It's not a teaching at all, it is the PRACTICE of using Scripture as the rule in the norming of doctrines. Scripture itself says that "the heavens declare the glory of God" but our visual reception of the stars is not used as the norma normans for the evaluation of doctrines among us in the practice of Sola Scriptura.


2. A teaching that Scripture is "finished." It's not a teaching at all. While probably all that practice Sola Scripture agree with all others that God seems to have inscribed His last book around 100 AD and doens't seem to be adding any more books, the Rule of Scripture was just as "valid" in 1400 BC when Scripture consisted of just two stone tablets as it is today - only the corpus of Scripture is larger, that has no impact on the practice of embracing it as the rule/canon/norma normans in our evaluation of doctrines among us. The Rule of Scripture embraces the Scripture that is.


3. Hermeneutics. The Rule of Scripture has to do with WHAT is the most sound rule/canon/norma normans for the evaluation of the doctrines among us, it is not a hermeneutical principle. Obviously that Scripture needs to be interpreted, but that's a different subject or another day and thread. The Rule of Scripture has to do with norming, not interpreting.


4. Arbitration. Obviously, some process of determining whether the doctrine under review "measures up" (arbitration) to the "measuring stick" (the canon). This is also beyond the scope here, the Rule of Scripture is the embrace of Scripture AS that canon, it does not address the issue of HOW it is best determined if a position "measures up" to that canon.





An illustration:



Let's say Dave and Fred are neighbors. They decided that they will hire a contractor to build a brick wall on their property line, six feet tall. Dave and Fred hire Bob the Builder. He agrees to build the wall on the property line - six feet tall.

Bob is now done. He claims the wall is six feet tall. Does it matter? If it doesn't, if his work and claim are entirely MOOT - then, nope - truth doesn't matter. And can just ignore what he said and did. OR we can consider that of the nearly 7 billion people in the world, there is ONE who is incapable of being wrong about measurements - and that ONE is Bob the Builder, claims ONE - Bob the Builder. IF Bob the Builder alone is right about what he alone claims about he alone here, it's pretty much a waste of time to wonder if what he said about this is true or not. But, IF truth matters and IF Bob the Builder will permit accountability (perhaps because he is confident the wall IS six feet tall), then we have the issue of accountability: Is the wall what we desire and what Bob the Builder claims it is?


If so, we just embraced norming. Norming is the process of determining correctness of the positions among us. For example, Bob claiming the wall is 6 feet tall. Is that correct? Addressing that question is norming.



Norming typically involves a norm: WHAT will serve as the rule (straight edge) or canon (measuring stick) - WHAT will be embraced by all parties involved in the normative process that is the reliable standard, the plumbline. Perhaps in the case of Fred and Dave, they embrace a standard Sears Measuring Tape. They both have one, Bob does too. Dave, Fred and Bob consider their carpenter's Sears Measuring Tape as reliable for this purpose, it's OBJECTIVE (all 3 men can read the numbers), it's UNALTERABLE (none of the 3 can change what the tape says) and it's OUTSIDE and ABOVE and BEYOND all 3 parties. Using that could be called "The Rule of the Measuring Tape." The Sears Measuring Tape would be the "canon" (the word means 'measuring stick') for this normative process.




Why Scripture?



In epistemology (regardless of discipline), the most sound norma normans is usually regarded as the most objective, most knowable by all and alterable by none, the most universally embraced by all parties as reliable for this purpose. My degree is in physics. Our norma normans is math and repeatable, objective, laborative evidence. Me saying, "what I think is the norm for what I think" will be instantly disregarded as evidential since it's both moot and circular. I would need to evidence and substantiate my view with a norm fully OUTSIDE and ABOVE and BEYOND me - something objective and knowable. This is what The Handbook of the Catholic Faith proclaims (page136), "The Bible is the very words of God and no greater assurance of credence can be given. The Bible was inspired by God. Exactly what does that mean? It means that God Himself is the Author of the Bible. God inspired the penmen to write as He wished.... the authority of the Bible flows directly from the Author of the Bible who is God; it is authoritative because the Author is." Those that accept the Rule of Scripture tend to agree. It's embrace as the most sound Rule flows from our common embrace of Scripture as the inscriptured words of God for God is the ultimate authority.

The embrace of Scripture as the written words of God is among the most historic, ecumenical, universal embraces in all of Christianity. We see this as reliable, dependable, authoritative - it as a very, very, broad and deep embrace as such - typically among all parties involved in the evaluation. (See the illustration above).


It is knowable by all and alterable by none. We can all see the very words of Romans 3:25 for example, they are black letters on a white page - knowable! And they are unalterable. I can't change what is on the page in Romans 3:25, nor can any other; what is is.


It is regarded as authoritative and reliable. It is knowable by all and alterable by none. Those that reject the Rule of Scripture in norming ( the RCC and LDS, for example ) have no better alternative (something more inspired, more inerrant, more ecumenically/historically embraced by all parties, more objectively knowable, more unalterable), they have no alternative that is clearly more sound for this purpose among us.


To simply embrace the teachings of self (sometimes denominational "tradition" or "confession") as the rule/canon is simply self looking in the mirror at self - self almost always reveals self. In communist Cuba, Castro agrees with Castro - it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Castro is correct. We need a Rule outside, beyond, above self.




Why do some so passionately reject it?



Those that reject the Rule of Scripture in norming tend to do so not because they reject Scripture or have an alternative that is MORE inerrant, MORE the inscripturated words of God, MORE reliable, MORE objectively knowable, MORE unalterable, MORE ecumenically embraced as authoriative. Rather the rejection tends to be because each rejects accountability (and thus norming and any norm in such) in the sole, singular, exclusive, particular, unique case of self alone. From The Handbook of the Catholic Faith (page 151), "When the Catholic is asked for the substantiation for his belief, the correct answer is: From the teaching authority. This authority consists of the bishops of The Catholic Church in connection with the Catholic Pope in Rome. The faithful are thus freed from the typically Protestant question of 'is it true' and instead rests in quiet confidence that whatever the Catholic Church teaches is the teaching of Jesus Himself since Jesus said, 'whoever hears you hears me'." The Catholic Church itself says in the Catechism of itself (#87): Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”, The faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms." IF self declares that self is unaccountable and that self is exempt from the issue of truthfulness, then the entire issue of norming (and the embraced norma normans in such) becomes moot (for self). The issue has been changed from truth to power (claimed by self for self).



I hope that helps extend understanding of this praxis.





I humbly request that discussions of the praxis are in accord with the definition herein offered (it's useless to argue with what is not suggested)
. Thank you!



Pax




- Josiah








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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by ivebeenshown Sola Scriptura -- the practice of using Scripture as the only rule in matters regarding the Christian faith... a practice that is difficult to start without using a source outside of Scripture to define what Scripture consists of... in fact, to say you practice 'Sola Scriptura' is somewhat self-contradictory.
Well, starting with the wrong definition often ends with the wrong conclusion.

Fact is, none of the major Reformers defined it this way. And none meant it this way.

The point is to treat Scripture as the only infallible source of authority in matters of Christian faith and practice.

It's not the sole source -- it's the sole infallible source.

It's not the sole source of information. It's the sole source of authority.

It's not the sole source in all respects. It's the sole source in matters of faith and practice.

And it's not as if no one has mentioned this before. It's just that it hasn't changed the comments of those who should've been informed by the notification.
Interesting. Thanks for clarifying that :)
 
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T

Thekla

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So, they embraced and affirmed Sola Scriptura (in words nearly INDENTICAL to the opening post) but they rejected what they affirmed, in your opinion. Okay. Your opinion is noted. Thank you.

The quotes from these EO Church Fathers are given as good examples of what is and is not Sola Scriptura - the sole topic of this thread. They describe it very well.




[quote]What sources does your Denomination use?



Note the opening post. If possible, let's stick to THIS rubric.

THIS thread is about Rule of Scripture.

Thank you!

Brief quotations, wrested from the context of the entirety of an author's corpus, praxis, ithos and life are not a viable support for a position.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah said:
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.310-386):

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.
(Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1983 reprint], Second Series, Vol. VII, p. 23.)



St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):

...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.
(On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)



St. Gregory of Nyssa:

Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.
(On the Holy Trinity, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)

Brief quotations, wrested from the context of the entirety of an author's corpus, praxis, ithos and life are not a viable support for a position.


AGAIN, point noted: You think they disagreed with what they stated.
Got it. Okay. Thanks.





.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Brief quotations, wrested from the context of the entirety of an author's corpus, praxis, ithos and life are not a viable support for a position.
LLOJ heads for wiki :blush:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G4430 matches the Greek πτῶμα (ptōma), which occurs 5 times in 4 verses in the Greek concordance

Rotherham) Matthew 24:28 Wheresoever, the corpse, shall be, there, shall be gathered, the vultures!

Rotherham) Mark 6:29 And, hearing of it, his disciples went and took away His corpse, and laid it in a tomb.

Rotherham) Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies/corpses [lie] upon the broadway of the great city, the which is called, spiritually, Sodom and Egypt, where, their Lord also was crucified.

4430. ptoma pto'-mah from the alternate of 4098; a ruin, i.e. (specially), lifeless body (corpse, carrion):--dead body, carcase, corpse.

Corpus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Corpus (Latin plural corpora, English plural corpuses or corpora) is Latin for body. It may refer to:

Corpus Christi ("body of Christ" in Latin) may refer to:

A crucifix (from Latin cruci fixus meaning "(one) fixed to a cross") is a usually three-dimensional cross with a representation of Jesus' body, referred to in English as the corpus (Latin for "body"),[1][2] as distinct from a cross with no body.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Well, starting with the wrong definition often ends with the wrong conclusion.

Please read my post again. It is apparent that you did not correctly interpret what I said.

heymikey80 said:
It's not the sole source in all respects. It's the sole source in matters of faith and practice.

I acknowledged this in the first line of my post:

Sola Scriptura -- the practice of using Scripture as the only rule in matters regarding the Christian faith...

I took pains to clarify that Sola Scripture is a PRACTICE, in accordance with Josiah's definition of Sola Scriptura.

But this is the problem with Sola Scriptura -- you say that Scripture is the "sole source in matters of faith and practice." The contents of Scripture is in itself a 'matter of faith and practice'. I believe the body of Scripture consists of certain writings while many believe it consists of more or less writings. What determines this belief? What is our infallible source regarding what Scripture does and does not contain?
 
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