The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

[Philothei]

No where in the Bible it says that the authority of the Bishop/ Elder is fallable and should NOT be followed actually it says to be aware in the wolves in sheep's clothing. We have to be allert of false prophets. One way is to keep close to the sheppard and one way is to keep close to the 'elders" who are true teachers and lead the flocks. according to the Biblical/Church truths. And we do that. Have not seen one single Bishop in my Church leading astray... if he does he is "cut off" and taken away. So that means the checks and balances work ok for my Church

 

[Ortho_Cat]

No where in the Bible it says that the authority of the Bishop/ Elder is fallable and should NOT be followed actually it says to be aware in the wolves in sheep's clothing. We have to be allert of false prophets. One way is to keep close to the sheppard and one way is to keep close to the 'elders" who are true teachers and lead the flocks. according to the Biblical/Church truths. And we do that. Have not seen one single Bishop in my Church leading astray... if he does he is "cut off" and taken away. So that means the checks and balances work ok for my Church

Yes, this is a strawman that the EO does not practice accountability. Some times and some places better than others, but there is a well functioning system of accountability set in place to weed out those who have strayed from the faith and who are teaching others falsehoods.

 

[Philothei]

Why not just skip the middleman? Jesus came and made it so we can
go directly to God now.

The Elders were not middleman!! I think you missunderstand the Sprititual Elders for that of Christ. Christ is God. He is our guide for all that happens in our lives. We do go directly to HIM for prayer and spiritual nourinshment. We do take to the elders our "disputes" according to Paul... We do consult the elders per that suggestion. We do have the elders as Christ had John who he baptized Him. God through Christ conduscended to us and he still does that through his Ministers who are the Presbyters. They are "image of Christ".. The Elders are NOT Christ but are vehicles as the Apostles were of God's grace. God has his Ministers to help us out like he has Angels. To complete His ministry on earth God has given us the angelic order on earth who are the pastors, ministers, presbyteres, deacons and Bishops. So mediation is instituted by God himself for our benefit

Again who ever denies that order of ministry by God it is ok (imho) but the loss is in the benefit. It is like God is implementing for man giving man the possiblity for more help ...encouragment and grace and some chose to deny this help etc. The same as the sacraments they are in place for our benefit. it is up to each of us to realize that God conduscends to man and offers him another tool for salvation ...

 

[Thekla]

IIRC, it was Ireneas who identified the Montanist heresy by appeal to the "rule of faith" - what was received from the apostles and believed everywhere. He observed that one could take the materials used to make an image, use the same materials re-arranged, and create a different likeness. The Scriptures can be used likewise.

 

[Thekla]

No where in the Bible it says that the authority of the Bishop/ Elder is fallable and should NOT be followed actually it says to be aware in the wolves in sheep's clothing. We have to be allert of false prophets. One way is to keep close to the sheppard and one way is to keep close to the 'elders" who are true teachers and lead the flocks. according to the Biblical/Church truths. And we do that. Have not seen one single Bishop in my Church leading astray... if he does he is "cut off" and taken away. So that means the checks and balances work ok for my Church

I was going to say something similar - but glad you said it first (have to go pick up kids).

We are all, in the EO, responsible for 'keeping the faith once received'.

 

[Standing Up]

No where in the Bible it says that the authority of the Bishop/ Elder is fallable and should NOT be followed actually it says to be aware in the wolves in sheep's clothing. We have to be allert of false prophets. One way is to keep close to the sheppard and one way is to keep close to the 'elders" who are true teachers and lead the flocks. according to the Biblical/Church truths. And we do that. Have not seen one single Bishop in my Church leading astray... if he does he is "cut off" and taken away. So that means the checks and balances work ok for my Church

Rev. 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

How did that check & balance work?

 

[Standing Up]

Why not just skip the middleman? Jesus came and made it so we can
go directly to God now.


But now we have God IN us.
And was moses infallible?
IN fact, he messed up pretty big and caused
some of them to really miss the boat...

Bishops, kings, priests..
With Jesus as the King OF the kings
and the Lord OF the lords.

Right. Some groups have reestablished the OT-type clergy/laity distinction into the NT. And will deny doing so.

We do not need to fear going directly, boldly, to the throne of Grace of God.

 

[Thekla]

Right. Some groups have reestablished the OT-type clergy/laity distinction into the NT. And will deny doing so.

We do not need to fear going directly, boldly, to the throne of Grace of God.

This has been discussed before (distinction), and is inaccurate. Paul teaches, the NT Scriptures demonstrate, a multitude of gifts for the benefit of all. Christ did not call us to be a "one man band", but to live in Him, in His body, towards the Kingdom of Heaven. I do not read in the Scriptures that the Kingdom of Heaven is God plus one subject (me).

We do go to Christ directly, to the Father, to the Holy Spirit. God is Trinity, and as members of the body or of the Kingdom, we live in Christ as icon of Trinity. So then, are jealous that someone else has a "greater gift" ? Or do I call someone else's gift "greater" in fact because in pride I am not satisfied with what God gives me ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why not just skip the middleman?
Jesus came and made it so we can
go directly to God now. <snip>

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
(mediator)
occurs 7 times in 6 verses in the KJV
Page 1 / 1 inexact matches (Gal 3:19 - Hbr 12:24)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7426625-9/#post56189068
Hebrew 9:15

Rotherham] Hebrew 9:15 And for this cause of a new covenant is He mediator,--to the end that, death coming to pass for the redemption of the transgressions against the first covenant, the called might receive the promise of the age-abiding inheritance;
16 For where a covenant is, it is necessary for the death to be brought in, of Him that hath covenanted;
17 For a covenant over dead persons is firm,--since it is not then of force/strength when is living that hath covenanted.
18 Whence not even the first, apart from blood, hath been consecrated

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Rev. 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

How did that check & balance work?

there always has been people who claimed to be apostles and who weren't...I guess I don't see your point...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Yes, this is a strawman that the EO does not practice accountability.

Could you explain how it welcomes accountability for itself - for what it teaches as dogmas? To WHAT is its doctrines accountable? To WHAT arbitration does it submit?




.

 

[Standing Up]

there always has been people who claimed to be apostles and who weren't...I guess I don't see your point...

By what standard will you decide if they are or are not? The early Christians were able to decide who was and was not an apostle in Rev. 2:2. What standard did they use?

 

[Philothei]

Rev. 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

How did that check & balance work?

How does it work with your own interpretation?

 

[Philothei]

By what standard will you decide if they are or are not? The early Christians were able to decide who was and was not an apostle in Rev. 2:2. What standard did they use?

What standard do you use?

 

[Standing Up]

What standard do you use?

Scripture (66 books) and tradition-tied-to apostles.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What standard do you use?

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number H5251 matches the Hebrew &#1504;&#1461;&#1505; (nec), which occurs 20 times in 20 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV
AV &#8212; standard 7, ensign 6, pole 2, banner 2, sail 2, sign 1

Isaiah 11:12 And He lifts-up a banner/ensign for Nations, and He gathers ones being outcasts of Yisra'el,
and ones being shattered of Y@huwdah He is convening from four wings/corners of the Land.
[Jeremiah 51:27/Reve 20:8]

05251 nec {nace} from 05264; TWOT - 1379a; n m
1) something lifted up, standard, signal, signal pole, ensign, banner, sign, sail

 

[Philothei]

Scripture (66 books) and tradition-tied-to apostles.

We use the whole canon plus Apostlolic Tradition.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

We use the whole canon plus Apostlolic Tradition.

Yes, we prefer the canon of the Christians (Septuagint) over the canon of the Christ-rejecting Masoretes.

 

[Standing Up]

We use the whole canon plus Apostlolic Tradition.

I know. Some groups use a number of different canons and AT. None agree with each other. However, we could explore this:

Melito c175ad provides a list of OT canon; it excludes, maybe, Esther, but definitely the apocrypha. Otherwise it is the same as P uses.

Origin rejects the apocrypha.

Josephus indicates 22 books of the OT and closed at the time of Ezra (this is the same that Jesus alludes).

 

[Standing Up]

Yes, we prefer the canon of the Christians (Septuagint) over the canon of the Christ-rejecting Masoretes.

Better look more closely at what you've been taught. Even RC is willing to so admit:

We are therefore forced to admit that the leaders of Alexandrian Judaism showed a notable independence of Jerusalem tradition and authority in permitting the sacred boundaries of the Canon, which certainly had been fixed for the Prophets, to be broken by the insertion of an enlarged Daniel and the Epistle of Baruch. On the assumption that the limits of the Palestinian Hagiographa remained undefined until a relatively late date, there was less bold innovation in the addition of the other books, but the wiping out of the lines of the triple division reveals that the Hellenists were ready to extend the Hebrew Canon, if not establish a new official one of their own.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Canon of the Old Testament

New official one. Egypt and Rome. Lovely.