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Let me try one more time then.
No matter what church or group I associate with,
I will ONLY submit to those that God leads me to
submit to. And even then, submission only in that
which I know God is leading.
IOW, I will not blindly follow any man willy nilly,
I don't do Kool-aid
Which is why I "follow" only who GOD leads me to "follow"I do not see what the difference is between one "authority" and the RC sense of "authority" someone has to be the sheppard no?
FYI there has been as much child abuse in all churches not ONLY the RC. Actually abuse of power is in ALL church communities for as much as Church is on earth there will be false leaders/teachers.
It's the RC's that continue to insist I need to blindly follow men.That does not prove in anyway shape or form the RC been vindicated. Actually that shows partiality in judgment.
This is the reason I chose to mention RC.
One can have NO authority unless one is UNDER authority.Authority to God is expressed in many forms... in the Church the first Christians gave authority to the Apostles you give authority to your elder. I give authority to my Bishop and my priest. The point is that there is always a person in authority. If you are a priest then why do you also have an elder? How can you be a 'minister" in that sense and also submit to one?
My authority is from God.
(See story of the centurian)
This is an entirely different topic and from what you write, and the wayPaul says that we are NOT all the same some are prophets some are teachers some are called to do healings. He sees us as bearing different gifts.
you use this as an example, maybe we should make a thread about it,
I've found that the subject is much deeper than I had first understood.
(Find that is the rule with most of Scripture)
NO where it says that we are not to trust our elders and seek our own guidance.
I'm not suggesting we seek our own guidance.
Psalm 60:11 Give us aid against the enemy, for the help of man is worthless.
Psalm 118:8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.
Psalm 118:9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in princes.
Isaiah 2:22 Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?
Isaiah 36:6 Look now, you are depending on Egypt, that splintered reed of a staff,
which pierces a man's hand and wounds him if he leans on it!
Such is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all who depend on him.
Jeremiah 17:5 This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.
New International Version (©1984)
Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.
I do trust what is given to me by the Spirit of God.He says we should be watchful but that does not mean that we should doubt our elders and be "on our own". Being part of the "body of Christ" means taking risks with believing in God with believing that the Holy Spirit is guiding the congregation of the faithful. If we lose that trust and faith in what is given to us by the Holy Spirit we must them deny its presence in our life and in our congregation.
He leads me with His very voice every moment of my life.
Would God leave my salvation in another man's hands?
My safety? My childs trust? Never.
I follow the voice of the Good Shepherd, and when HE tells
me something through a man, it's ME who must discern if
that be so or not.
This is how I operate in the body, you do it as you please.
We each have a different understanding evidently.
I agree with this. Not all authority is valid but we also need to acknowledge a rebellious aspect of human nature which is connected to the fall: an anti-authoritarian predisposition that can manifest itself in various ways.I may be wrong, but it seems there is a misunderstanding - that somehow the idea of obedience has been mistaken for a sort of slavishness; it is not that at all.
(At least in the EO, history demonstrates this.)
We are all responsible to follow God, and this includes both obedience to our elders and also the ability to not obey what is contrary to God.
Discernment is not ours though, but a gift from God, and the ability to discern aright is a reflection of spiritual maturity. (It can start out as the will to follow a cluster of precepts, but that is not the same thing.)
Discernment, as gift, is also reliant on our 'cleansing'; of a growing awareness of our stains, wounds, scars and even "hang ups". This comes to mind, from a hymn: "... from the years of my youth many passions combat me ..." Here, passions are not just strong feelings, but the effect of difficulties in our lives which over time become impediments to right being in Christ.
Thus, it is a constant struggle to know whether we are responding to a fact or a passion - and thus the need for struggle and cleansing. Obedience is part of this struggle, as what we react for or against can in part be self revealing - allowing us an opportunity for self inspection in God.
I do not see any difference when God agrees with man whether it is RC or any other church I totally disagree.Let me try one more time then.
No matter what church or group I associate with,
I will ONLY submit to those that God leads me to
submit to. And even then, submission only in that
which I know God is leading.
IOW, I will not blindly follow any man willy nilly,
I don't do Kool-aid
So two problems:Which is why I "follow" only who GOD leads me to "follow"
It's the RC's that continue to insist I need to blindly follow men.
This is the reason I chose to mention RC.
If you follow God ONLY how sure you are you doing so? What is taking place in the RC can take place in any church... individually. Again you trust your paster as he agrees with God because YOU think he is. The same as any EO and RC we agree for we are persuaded by God that they are guided by God.
One can have NO authority unless one is UNDER authority.
My authority is from God.
(See story of the centurian)
Again this is wrong following men means following an elder. We are all under the authority of God
This is an entirely different topic and from what you write, and the way
you use this as an example, maybe we should make a thread about it,
I've found that the subject is much deeper than I had first understood.
(Find that is the rule with most of Scripture)
what exactly you see unrelated?
I'm not suggesting we seek our own guidance.
Psalm 60:11 Give us aid against the enemy, for the help of man is worthless.
Psalm 118:8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.
Psalm 118:9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in princes.
Isaiah 2:22 Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?
Isaiah 36:6 Look now, you are depending on Egypt, that splintered reed of a staff,
which pierces a man's hand and wounds him if he leans on it!
Such is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all who depend on him.
Jeremiah 17:5 This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.
New International Version (©1984)
Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.
I do trust what is given to me by the Spirit of God.
He leads me with His very voice every moment of my life.
Would God leave my salvation in another man's hands?
My safety? My childs trust? Never.
I follow the voice of the Good Shepherd, and when HE tells
me something through a man, it's ME who must discern if
that be so or not.
This is how I operate in the body, you do it as you please.
We each have a different understanding evidently.
God leaves your salvation to you...Can you be wrong? Then if we cannot trust any man the importance to the elders is lost and the whole ministry is problematic then because there are many Apostles and elders not all are worthy still this does not negate the calling to be one or the Church that ordains them. I think you confuse one for the other. Men are inspired by the Holy Spirit it is just contradictory to admit this for yourself but exclude all others from it. It just again does not make sense.
I may be wrong, but it seems there is a misunderstanding - that somehow the idea of obedience has been mistaken for a sort of slavishness; it is not that at all.
(At least in the EO, history demonstrates this.)
We are all responsible to follow God, and this includes both obedience to our elders and also the ability to not obey what is contrary to God.
Discernment is not ours though, but a gift from God, and the ability to discern aright is a reflection of spiritual maturity. (It can start out as the will to follow a cluster of precepts, but that is not the same thing.)
Discernment, as gift, is also reliant on our 'cleansing'; of a growing awareness of our stains, wounds, scars and even "hang ups". This comes to mind, from a hymn: "... from the years of my youth many passions combat me ..." Here, passions are not just strong feelings, but the effect of difficulties in our lives which over time become impediments to right being in Christ.
Thus, it is a constant struggle to know whether we are responding to a fact or a passion - and thus the need for struggle and cleansing. Obedience is part of this struggle, as what we react for or against can in part be self revealing - allowing us an opportunity for self inspection in God.
Obedience to God is part of knowing God (just to add on) how else can we know God if we do not lay down our lives and egos to hi Will?
"The begining of Wisdom is the fear of God" Respecting God is obaying Him and trusting Him.
-snip-
If you are a priest then why do you also have an elder? How can you be a 'minister" in that sense and also submit to one?
Paul says that we are NOT all the same some are prophets some are teachers some are called to do healings. He sees us as bearing different gifts. NO where it says that we are not to trust our elders and seek our own guidance. He says we should be watchful but that does not mean that we should doubt our elders and be "on our own". Being part of the "body of Christ" means taking risks with believing in God with believing that the Holy Spirit is guiding the congregation of the faithful. If we lose that trust and faith in what is given to us by the Holy Spirit we must them deny its presence in our life and in our congregation.
I may be wrong, but it seems there is a misunderstanding - that somehow the idea of obedience has been mistaken for a sort of slavishness; it is not that at all.-snip-
That does not make too much sense as in your church you have elders... I do not see what the difference is between one "authority" and the RC sense of "authority" someone has to be the sheppard no?
FYI there has been as much child abuse in all churches not ONLY the RC. Actually abuse of power is in ALL church communities for as much as Church is on earth there will be false leaders/teachers.
That does not prove in anyway shape or form the RC been vindicated. Actually that shows partiality in judgment.
Authority to God is expressed in many forms... in the Church the first Christians gave authority to the Apostles you give authority to your elder. I give authority to my Bishop and my priest. The point is that there is always a person in authority.
Being part of the "body of Christ" means taking risks with believing in God with believing that the Holy Spirit is guiding the congregation of the faithful. If we lose that trust and faith in what is given to us by the Holy Spirit we must them deny its presence in our life and in our congregation.
I may be wrong, but it seems there is a misunderstanding - that somehow the idea of obedience has been mistaken for a sort of slavishness; it is not that at all.
(At least in the EO, history demonstrates this.)
We are all responsible to follow God, and this includes both obedience to our elders and also the ability to not obey what is contrary to God.
Discernment is not ours though, but a gift from God, and the ability to discern aright is a reflection of spiritual maturity. (It can start out as the will to follow a cluster of precepts, but that is not the same thing.)
Discernment, as gift, is also reliant on our 'cleansing'; of a growing awareness of our stains, wounds, scars and even "hang ups". This comes to mind, from a hymn: "... from the years of my youth many passions combat me ..." Here, passions are not just strong feelings, but the effect of difficulties in our lives which over time become impediments to right being in Christ.
Thus, it is a constant struggle to know whether we are responding to a fact or a passion - and thus the need for struggle and cleansing. Obedience is part of this struggle, as what we react for or against can in part be self revealing - allowing us an opportunity for self inspection in God.
I do not see any difference when God agrees with man whether it is RC or any other church I totally disagree.
Again you trust your paster as he agrees with God because YOU think he is. The same as any EO and RC we agree for we are persuaded by God that they are guided by God.
Oh my. I just read through the most recent posts and I truly feel thatI think she is saying she would submit to anyone who the Lord shows her deserves to be in that position, and further that Scripture has everything to do with it, although she is not limited to merely the words on a page, nor her own understanding of those words. (And if I'm mis-stating her position, I'm sure she won't hesitate to correct me!)
I am fully persuaded. No problem there.So two problems:
If you follow God ONLY how sure you are you doing so?
It could, especially if the church was filled withWhat is taking place in the RC can take place in any church... individually.
Perhaps. But not sure if it's "the same" in that I trust my pastor hears GodAgain you trust your paster as he agrees with God because YOU think he is. The same as any EO and RC we agree for we are persuaded by God that they are guided by God.
God never leaves me or forsakes me. In fact, My salvation is in His hands.God leaves your salvation to you...
Probably way more than I know about even.Can you be wrong?
What exactly is the role of your elders that they are so "important"?Then if we cannot trust any man the importance to the elders is lost
I think you confuse one for the other. Men are inspired by the Holy Spirit it is just contradictory to admit this for yourself but exclude all others from it. It just again does not make sense.
I think possibly, but I'm also not sure if I quite understand your questionI don't like using the word "symbolic," but when people offer the Body and Blood of Christ for other people to partake of, is not what you write here at least part of what is being communicated?
This was my Sun. to stay home (my husband and myself take turns, so someone stays with our adult son).(I'm guessing you had a wonderful and meaningful service this morning)
Maybe a dichotomy is expected where one does not exist ?Oh my. I just read through the most recent posts and I truly feel that
there's much confusion, and I'm as much at fault as anyone because I
tend to 'assume' we're all on the same level and in the same stage in our
walk. Not only that, but that we can read each other's minds.
I have a friend who does absolutely everything his doctor says, no matter
what. He was on a med for something, began having bad leg problems. I
mentioned that clots in the legs was one of the med's side effects. He quit
the meds... and the problem stopped immediately. Two weeks later he was
grumbling about the leg pain and I asked if he'd gone back on those meds.
He said that his doctor had suggested he just try them again.
Story after story of meds with this friend. If his doc said to take arsenic,
he'd take it. I see the same thing in the churches. NO WAY does God
intend for us to blindly follow "man". (I posted Scripture upon Scripture)
God did not come to put us in bondage to men.
(Actually, Jesus did NOT want us to call man "father" etc)
He gave us His Spirit, and gifts to FREE us from that bondage.
Authority is for the Christian only given by God, yes.Not quite sure what other folks feel "authority" means,
but for me, it means the authority to operate in the kingdom.
God gives certain gifts and abilities, "anointing' if you will.
It's all in Scripture.
I go to God, God leads me as HE sees fit.
SOMETIMES, (often even) that involves other humans.
Sometimes, it doesn't.
Actually, I've never met a Christian with whom I've discussed the matter that mistakes Christianity for going to a building and doing certain actions.As I reread my post before hitting send, it occurs to me that
the reason for most of this confusion is due to a HUGE need
for a paradigm shift in the very meaning of "the church".
If folks think that "the church" is going to a building and doing
certain actions on Sunday, then my actions seem absurd to them.
If folks think of the church as an organism that acts according to
UNSEEN, forces, in concert... toward mercy grace and liberty,...
then it's simple.
(HOPE THAT clears it up ... not sure if it went from my head to the
screen as intended.)
Anyhow
Praise be to God!
It could, especially if the church was filled with
men who had no outlet for their sexual passions. God created men
with hormones for a reason. But that's another thread for sure.
Disagreed. I have NEVER come in contact with abuse of power in a single Church community. NEVER. I cannot agree it exists in all communities, nor will I believe child abuse takes place in all Churches.
The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say
This will hurt! And I'm surprised you don't already recognize I do not associate with "the majority," and no, I will not defend any large or long-running establishment:
Matthew 13:31
"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."
Notice our Lord doesn't say if a good tree, overrun with "birds of the air," can still produce good fruit, gets chopped down, or what. He has never Blessed me in any such environment, that much I know. Typically He uses me to bring about sweeping change in fledgling little communities, and moves me on ...
How do you clasify then these chruches? How can we justify that MOST churches do fall into this?
Some are having the insight to belong to perfect communities while others do not. That seems to be a bit gnostic IMHO.
Congregation size has to do with what? I still do not understand this. Sorry.I think the only "classification" is our Lord's words that I posted, from Mt 13. He doesn't seem to be justifying it.
This doesn't even resemble anything I said. Does a great big tree house bird nests? Or does a sapling? Maybe there is wisdom in having smaller congregations?
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