The "Root" of the Error that the Church is "spiritual Israel"

[eph3Nine]

So . . . using the "literal" hermeneutic of the dispensational view . . .

When understanding what the Scriptures teach when they state that all Israel shall be saved we need to understand that:

1. All of Israel doesn't mean ALL of Israel, and

2. Salvation doesn't mean salvation.

Got it.

All Israel means all BELIEVING ISRAEL and scripture has been given to show that one is not a Jew merely by birth.

 

[eph3Nine]

I agree that any Jew or any Gentile can be saved right now through the gospel.. although the NATION of Israel (the only nation which is NOT a Gentile nation) remains blinded in part as the mystery says.. we should not be ignorant of this as Christians or we will be wise in our own conceits as Paul says..

So.. just for the record.. NOW there's three things which I disagree with you on..

1. Your claim that the church of God is not the Bride of Christ..

2. Your claim that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ..

3. Your claim here that Israel is as Gentile as the rest of us..

Ok...since you reject scripture for the first two, and Ive given you scripture for the third, and you seem to be wobbling here too, where do you go for your answers? You are mixing the two programs instead of staying in the topic for one, and not addressing truth already given.

We are in the UNPROPHESIED, SECRET Program of God today. BEFORE this occurred the Jewish nation was in a favored status. When she fell into UNBELIEF after many chances given her by God, He divorced her. Look up the term "lo ammi" in the scriptures....it means "NOT MY PEOPLE". He divorced her because it was His LEGAL right to do so under the contract He had with HER as a NATION. God has no such contract with us. He wont and cant divorce us due to the fact that we are already JOINED TO HIM AS ONE; not in marriage , but in FACT.

In order for God to offer salvation to the whole world ASIDE FROM coming thru the nation Israel, there had to be a leveling out of the status which was given Israel as the channel thru which ALL nations would come to God. When Israel was SET ASIDE ...and heres where you miss it....TEMPORARILY...the door was open for God to usher in His SECRET PLAN which had been HIDin God from ages and generation.

We are NOW in that "parenthetical SECRET PLAN", found in the MIDDLE OF YOUR BIBLE...sandwiched in between the two HALVES of Gods plan for the NATION ISRAEL.

God WILL resume right where He left off with the nation Israel, His WIFE. Keep in mind that from the moment the agreement was made they were husband and wife...the last step in the marriage process in times PAST was the actual consummation. God fully plans to consummate His marriage agreement with Israel at a FUTURE TIME, when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled.

Israel NOW has the same status as all others...she is a GENTILE or UNBELIEVING nation with NO special standing or status with God today. THAT is why Jews and gentile can come to God NOW on even ground. BECAUSE God changed the PROGRAM. That ought to be OBVIOUS to anyone who actually takes the time to LOOK at whats happened from the scriptures.

I rest my case. You, my friend, can argue and disagree til the cows come home, but you must face the facts that there are more UNANSWERED questions that arise from your trying to shove square pieces into round holes, than if you simply believed what the scenario tells thru scripture.

 

[Markea]

Ok...since you reject scripture for the first two

I've rejected scripture..? Where..?

Your first claim is that the church of God is not the Bride of Christ..

Paul tells us that we have been espoused to ONE HUSBAND, as a chaste virgin UNTO CHRIST.. I accept this.. I do not reject it.

Paul tells us that we are dead to the law through the body of Christ and that we should be married to another..even to Him who is raised from the dead.. I accept that, I do not reject that.

Paul tells us that Christ gave Himself for the church and that there is a great mystery concerning Christ and the church.. how that a man shall leave his Father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife.. I accept that, I do not reject it.

Thematically I see Isaac, the only begotten son of Abraham (a perfect picture of Christ) taking Rebekah for his bride.. the one who was found by the well of water.. and who was told of all things pertaining to Isaac.. I accept this, I do not reject it.

I see Joseph as a type of Christ.. sold to the Gentiles.. hidden amongst the Gentiles for a time.. taking a Gentile bride while in a Gentile land.. I accept this.. I do not reject it.

Your other claim is that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ, and you base this upon ONE verse and ONE verse alone.. 1 Tim 1:16.. Many false doctrines stem from one verse taken out of its proper context..

I accept the SCRIPTURE that Paul recognized others who were IN CHRIST before he was.. obviously referring to the very same THING of which he was a part of.. I accept that, I do not reject that..

NOW you're saying that ISRAEL is as GENTILE as any other nation, which you will have absolutely zero SCRIPTURAL support for.. because there IS NO SCRIPTURE that teaches that ISRAEL is GENTILE.. None.. notta ziltch.. and the NT itself speaks often of the fact that there are Jew, Gentiles, and the church of God.. but again.. there is no scripture which teaches that ISRAEL is GENTILE..

 

[eph3Nine]

Israel is considered by God in this present dispensation of Grace as to be as all other nations.

"He (God) hath concluded ALL in unbelief (jew and gentile...no longer dealing with mankind according to the special status of a NATION but as all being ONE in UNBELIEF), that He might have mercy upon all."

You are the only one that I see yanking scripture OUT of context to try and prove otherwise UNPROVEABLE points. Its called "proof texting" and "spiritualizing" instead of reading IN CONTEXT and rightly dividing. Its a common error being propogated by none other than our enemy, satan, as his goal today is to keep good folks such as yourself BLINDED to the MYSTERY truths that are in operation NOW, as we speak.

Religiousity and "churchianity" are not even close runners up when it comes to the REAL DEAL God has set out in His Word. Unfortunately, many follow the crowd instead of 'searching the scriptures daily to see if these things be so'.

We will all be judged by how we handled Gods MOST RECENT information to mankind. Our rewards will be based on it. Many will be saved, yes, but their works burned up due to following the wrong set of instructions and NOT acknowleging the MYSTERY

Col. 2:2 "That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the FULL assurance of UNDERSTANDING, to the ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of the MYSTERY of God....."

 

[Markea]

Israel is considered by God in this present dispensation of Grace as to be as all other nations.

Now you're changing your statement.. because you originally said that ISRAEL is as GENTILE as any other nation. This is NOWHERE found in scripture as indicated by your providing NO SCRIPTURE..

"He (God) hath concluded ALL in unbelief (jew and gentile...no longer dealing with mankind according to the special status of a NATION but as all being ONE in UNBELIEF), that He might have mercy upon all."

No kidding.. so where does that say that ISRAEL is now GENTILE..?

You are the only one that I see yanking scripture OUT of context to try and prove otherwise UNPROVEABLE points. Its called "proof texting" and "spiritualizing" instead of reading IN CONTEXT and rightly dividing.

OK.. here's a deal for you.. let's take the FIRST claim of yours.. and as I've shown the SCRIPTURAL support for it.. (which you claimed that I rejected).. why don't you tell us the correct meaning of these verses.. fair enough..?

SO FIRST.. YOU CLAIM THAT THE CHURCH OF GOD IS NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST..

I then provided ~5 examples of how the CHURCH of GOD actually IS the BRIDE OF CHRIST.. so here they are..

2 Cor 11.. Paul says that he has espoused us to ONE HUSBAND, as a chaste virgin UNTO CHRIST.. (so what's your interpretation of this ? )

Romans 7.. Paul says that we're dead to law through the body of Christ and that we should be married to another.. even to HIM who is raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit unto God. (what's your interpretation)

Eph 5 says that Christ gave Himself for the church and that there is a great mystery concerning Christ and the church.. how that a man shall leave his Father and Mother and be joined to his wife.. (what's your interpretation ? )

The example of Isaac and Abraham sending his servant after they came down from the mountain where he was to be sacrificed.. Isaac is a perfect picture of Christ.. ie the son of promise.. the heir of all things.. his wife is found at the well of water and told all things pertaining to Isaac.. (what's your interpretation of this?)

Joseph being a type of Christ.. sold to the Gentiles, hidden amongst the Gentiles for a time.. takes a Gentile wife while in a Gentile land.. before ultimately revealing himself to his brethren.. (what's your interpretation ? )

 

[eph3Nine]

Now you're changing your statement.. because you originally said that ISRAEL is as GENTILE as any other nation. This is NOWHERE found in scripture as indicated by your providing NO SCRIPTURE..



No kidding.. so where does that say that ISRAEL is now GENTILE..?



OK.. here's a deal for you.. let's take the FIRST claim of yours.. and as I've shown the SCRIPTURAL support for it.. (which you claimed that I rejected).. why don't you tell us the correct meaning of these verses.. fair enough..?

SO FIRST.. YOU CLAIM THAT THE CHURCH OF GOD IS NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST..

I then provided ~5 examples of how the CHURCH of GOD actually IS the BRIDE OF CHRIST.. so here they are..

2 Cor 11.. Paul says that he has espoused us to ONE HUSBAND, as a chaste virgin UNTO CHRIST.. (so what's your interpretation of this ? )

Romans 7.. Paul says that we're dead to law through the body of Christ and that we should be married to another.. even to HIM who is raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit unto God. (what's your interpretation)

Eph 5 says that Christ gave Himself for the church and that there is a great mystery concerning Christ and the church.. how that a man shall leave his Father and Mother and be joined to his wife.. (what's your interpretation ? )

The example of Isaac and Abraham sending his servant after they came down from the mountain where he was to be sacrificed.. Isaac is a perfect picture of Christ.. ie the son of promise.. the heir of all things.. his wife is found at the well of water and told all things pertaining to Isaac.. (what's your interpretation of this?)

Joseph being a type of Christ.. sold to the Gentiles, hidden amongst the Gentiles for a time.. takes a Gentile wife while in a Gentile land.. before ultimately revealing himself to his brethren.. (what's your interpretation ? )

I will NOT strive with you. You have been given sufficient data to make an educated change of mind and have chosen NOT to do so. Any further discussion on the issues we have already tackled would be fruitless.

The bad thing about simply wanting to be RIGHT instead of wanting to really understand what God is doing today, is that it only feeds the flesh. It doesnt edify anyone.

I want others to be edified by realizing that ONLY as we put Gods Word rightly divided as our guideline will be be able to understand Gods workings today. You are not willing, by your own admission, to do this. We have no basis for further discussion on these issues already covered.

But thanks for the dialogue. Its always interesting and good practice when we can see clearly Gods overall plan for mankind as the BIG PICTURE and try to persuade others to see it as well. We arent called to change anyones mind, but to present truth and leave the results with God. What an awesome challenge and responsibility.

I thank God for his wonderful MYSTERY which is NOW made known to all for our obedience.

Yeeeeee haw.

 

[eph3Nine]

Do you realize that Abraham was a gentile until God made of him a nation?

We wont go into this ...but you are in over your head.

 

[Markea]

I will NOT strive with you. You have been given sufficient data to make an educated change of mind and have chosen NOT to do so. Any further discussion on the issues we have already tackled would be fruitless.

The bad thing about simply wanting to be RIGHT instead of wanting to really understand what God is doing today, is that it only feeds the flesh. It doesnt edify anyone.

I want others to be edified by realizing that ONLY as we put Gods Word rightly divided as our guideline will be be able to understand Gods workings today. You are not willing, by your own admission, to do this. We have no basis for further discussion on these issues already covered.

But thanks for the dialogue. Its always interesting and good practice when we can see clearly Gods overall plan for mankind as the BIG PICTURE and try to persuade others to see it as well. We arent called to change anyones mind, but to present truth and leave the results with God. What an awesome challenge and responsibility.

I thank God for his wonderful MYSTERY which is NOW made known to all for our obedience.

Yeeeeee haw.

Great..

YOU CLAIMED that I REJECTED SCRIPTURE for these...

I then PROVIDED SCRIPTURE and asked your opinion on it..

Now you do not respond..

Just another example of YOU and YOUR FALSE CLAIMS.

 

[Dave Taylor]

I agree with you Dave...that right now he deals with individuals
yet during the period of the Law... he was dealing with Just Israel...

But during the Law period he dealt with Ninevah, Rahab the Canaanite, Tamar the Cannanite, and Ruth the Moabite, [size=-1]Bathsheba the Hittite[/size]....all Gentiles....

And Tamar, Ruth, [size=-1]Bathsheba, [/size]and Rahab are all listed during that time as Gentile blood being in the specific OT bloodline of Jesus Messiah!

Those weren't the only non-Israel Gentiles in the OT times that God dealt with individually! Anyone prior to Jacob were 'Gentiles' and not 'Israel'. Any of the far-ancient patriarchs from Terah backwards were all 'Gentiles'.

Can't you see all of the inconsistencies you have to continuously be jumping through and around and avoiding by trying to uphold the Dispensational model???

That is why the NT in hundreds of places goes into so much detail telling you that there are two groups....the saved and the lost...and that those who are Christ are one body. To help you see that this idea that the Jewish Elders and Pharisees had, and that Dispensationalism has revived....is not Biblical and not the intent of how God deals with humanity.

Israel had a part.
To fulfill prophecy concerning the lineage bywhich Jesus would come.

Done. Finished. Completed. Fulfilled.

"And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations" Luke 24:44

Jesus is referring to the OT Scriptures...that is all that existed at the time He spoke this to them....and Jesus Himself tell us the OT scriptures taught His suffering, death, rising on the 3rd day for repentance and remission of sins among all nations....Jesus taught this...from the OT Scriptures!!!

 

[eph3Nine]

Jesus is referring to the OT Scriptures...that is all that existed at the time He spoke this to them....and Jesus Himself tell us the OT scriptures taught His suffering, death, rising on the 3rd day for repentance and remission of sins among all nations....Jesus taught this...from the OT Scriptures!!!

Jesus taught ONLY the OT scriptures....thats just the point. The earthly Jesus was born under the law and taught the law, as this was the ONLY game in town. He told them of his death, but He didn't preach it as the means of salvation by any stretch of the imagination. The means of salvation in times Past , under the Jewish program, was faith in the prophetic promises of a coming Messiah, who Jesus WAS, and then water baptism as demonstration of that faith...for the REMISSION OF SINS (something in REMISSION can come BACK)...we Have the forgiveness of sins as a present possession..see the difference?

The earthly Jesus preached the Law program which He was born under. This was the KINGDOM of heaven ON EARTH program for the nation Israel.

Until you are willing to acknowledge that God indeed HAS two programs, then we will continue going around in circles.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Jesus taught ONLY the OT scriptures....thats just the point. The earthly Jesus was born under the law and taught the law, as this was the ONLY game in town. He told them of his death, but He didn't preach it as the means of salvation by any stretch of the imagination. The means of salvation in times Past , under the Jewish program, was faith in the prophetic promises of a coming Messiah, who Jesus WAS, and then water baptism as demonstration of that faith...for the REMISSION OF SINS (something in REMISSION can come BACK)...we Have the forgiveness of sins as a present possession..see the difference?

The earthly Jesus preached the Law program which He was born under. This was the KINGDOM of heaven ON EARTH program for the nation Israel.

Until you are willing to acknowledge that God indeed HAS two programs, then we will continue going around in circles.

Odd then that Paul, Jew of Jews would call the Church, "Israel of God" in Galatians 6.

14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[eph3Nine]

Odd then that Paul, Jew of Jews would call the Church, "Israel of God" in Galatians 6.

14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

This has already been explained in another thread. We are strongly advised NOT to repeat ourselves.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

This has already been explained in another thread. We are strongly advised NOT to repeat ourselves.

I was not on that thread.

Regardless of your explanation, Paul clearly names the Church as the Israel of God in Galatians 6.

As far as "explanations" go, dispensationalists come up with all kinds of whacky explanations for things like Jesus telling John at the start of Revelation, that what He was telling John were things "which must soon come to pass", and placing them far off in the future.

And taking 7 literal churches in Asia and allegorizing them into 7 church ages.

So much for literalism, eh?

 

[eph3Nine]

Paul often refers to the the Kingdom church. It doesnt change the fact that the CHURCH which is his Body is NOT this church. Please read other posts in here for explanation.

Find the thread entitled THREE churches ( I found it for you and brought it into the most recent posts) ...there are three churchs mentioned in scripture. Israel has to do with the first two. WE, the body of Christ, are His church which is His Body TODAY. Israels "church" has been put ASIDE.

Take ALL the scripture relating to a topic and you will SEE the answer clearly.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Paul often refers to the the Kingdom church. It doesnt change the fact that the CHURCH which is his Body is NOT this church. Please read other posts in here for explanation.

Find the thread entitled THREE churches ( I found it for you and brought it into the most recent posts) ...there are three churchs mentioned in scripture. Israel has to do with the first two. WE, the body of Christ, are His church which is His Body TODAY. Israels "church" has been put ASIDE.

Take ALL the scripture relating to a topic and you will SEE the answer clearly.

ROFLMTO

 

[eph3Nine]

Unfortunately, laughter doesn't change FACTS. Every time the word church is used its NOT referring to we the Body of Christ. Check it out for yourself....of course, that requires "STUDY"...but I think you can handle it. ON the second page of the pages of threads, you will find an in depth study of the three churches mentioned in scripture....take a look!

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Unfortunately, laughter doesn't change FACTS. Every time the word church is used its NOT referring to we the Body of Christ. Check it out for yourself....of course, that requires "STUDY"...but I think you can handle it. ON the second page of the pages of threads, you will find an in depth study of the three churches mentioned in scripture....take a look!

Sorry, but those are not "facts". They are just another example of dispnsationalists imposing a paradigm on Scripture that distorts at best and tortures Scripture at worst.

 

[eph3Nine]

Sorry, but those are not "facts". They are just another example of dispnsationalists imposing a paradigm on Scripture that distorts at best and tortures Scripture at worst.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. However, this is for discussing dispensational theology...not for trying to disprove it even when your arguments are proven "wanting."

So far, I haven't heard any arguments, other than opinion from you.

Others have tried and failed using your tactics....and that dog just dont hunt.

If we distort...please show us how, with scripture, and we will converse with you.

Now, did you look at those sections already posted that deal with the three churches mentioned in scripture, or NOT?

If you HAD, you would see that the church, the Body of Christ, is the ONLY church on the table today...the church which was Israel, is NOT.

Have a great day.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

However, this is for discussing dispensational theology...not for trying to disprove it

Better check the OP again.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

gal 3:28 in the body of Christ their is either jew or gentile