The Right to Create an Office

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Did the Bishops of the early Church have the right to create an office called Priest?

Yes or No

Forgive me...

 

[E.C.]

Yes.

"Whatever you loosen on earth shall be loosened in heaven" (or something like that).

Pentecost.

And because there was a need for it.

 

[Standing Up]

It would be superfluous, for that is what we are in the line of Melchizedek priesthood with Jesus Christ as our High Priest. Peter: Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Here's Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:
Priesthood, Priest's Office:
denotes "a priesthood" (akin to hierateuo, see below), "a body of priests," consisting of all believers, the whole church (not a special order from among them), called "a holy priesthood," 1Pe 2:5; "a royal priesthood," 1Pe 2:9; the former term is associated with offering spiritual sacrifices, the latter with the royal dignity of showing forth the Lord's excellencies (RV). In the Sept., Exd 19:6; 23:22.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It would be superfluous, for that is what we are in the line of Melchizedek priesthood with Jesus Christ as our High Priest. Peter: Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Here's Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:
Priesthood, Priest's Office:
denotes "a priesthood" (akin to hierateuo, see below), "a body of priests," consisting of all believers, the whole church (not a special order from among them), called "a holy priesthood," 1Pe 2:5; "a royal priesthood," 1Pe 2:9; the former term is associated with offering spiritual sacrifices, the latter with the royal dignity of showing forth the Lord's excellencies (RV). In the Sept., Exd 19:6; 23:22.

That's not in question.

Did they have the right?

Forgive me...

 

[polishbeast]

Yes.

"Whatever you loosen on earth shall be loosened in heaven" (or something like that).

Pentecost.

And because there was a need for it.

This answer

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Can I get a mod to change this to a public poll...

Thanks much.

 

[ProScribe]

Vote ~ yes.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Did the Bishops of the early Church have the right to create an office called Priest?

Yes or No

Forgive me...

IMHO, "priest" and "pastor" are the same thing. There MIGHT be some distinction between those and bishop and elder in the Bible (since different qualifications are given and those titles exist together), but I haven't a clue from the texts what that distinction was.

IMHO, Christians can create whatever offices, ministries, jobs, etc. they want. As far as I can tell, the early church did not have audio/visual tekies, secretaries, organists/ministers of music, custodians - and yet I don't know of a church that doesn't have these things.

Ah, but it's one thing to say WE created this office/job/ministry, it's another to say that JESUS did and therefore those that hold it are infallible/unaccountable.


Just my fallible perspective....


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[Brushstroke]

My vote was yes.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Christians do not have any "rights" but rather "privileges". "Priest" and "Pastor" refers to one who has a pastoral oversight over others as a "Shepherd". It is based upon the idea of shepherding and looks back to the pattern of Jesus, who described himself as "the good shepherd" (John 10:11) and is referred to as "the great" (Heb. 13:20) and "Chief Shepherd" of the sheep (1 Pet. 5:4). Lord determines in an unifying way for a local church of who have the privileges to be priests or pastors because God will use them by His Spirit as He wills.

Shepherds are to love and teach God's disciples. As James said to the church at large, “Prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves” (James 1:22; cf. Luke 6:46; John 13:17). To me, a strong local church is marked by love. Through Jesus Christ through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we have apostolic succession, but it is not in a line of men who pass along authority from one to another. It is the passing on of apostolic truth that goes from one generation to the next, in the context of the ministry of the truth in local churches around the world.

When a local church lose their respect for their pastor or priest due to sin or controversy, it is a sure sign that this pastor has outlived his usefulness to that congregation. It is important for us to realize that the pastor/priest-church relationship is very sensitive and vitally important issue. I believe the hardest part as a Christian is being like-Christ and try to live in a "blameless" life. We do not expect our pastors/priests to be the only ones who are acting like-Christ and live in a blameless life. ALL members of the Church must live in a blameless life, be the shining light to the lost and bring them to Christ. The pastor/priest should be known as a man of Christian character and conduct and there should be demonstrable evidence of his mature, Christian character. God is obviously concerned with the character of the men put in the office of pastor/priesthood.

 

[Rebekah30]

In the Old Testament, there were 3 types of priests.
A High Priest, the Levitical Priesthood, and the Priesthood of all men.


I think a better question would of been did they have the need to.

 

[Rebekah30]

IMHO, "priest" and "pastor" are the same thing.



.

How so? An OT Priest's main concern was offering sacrifes.

 

[JimfromOhio]

How so? An OT Priest's main concern was offering sacrifes.

Yes, but not quiet the same. Jesus was the FINAL priest relating to sacrifices. In the Old Testament Leviticus 9:7 Moses said to Aaron, "Come to the altar and sacrifice your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people; sacrifice the offering that is for the people and make atonement for them, as the LORD has commanded." In the New Testament, Hebrews 5 explains that "Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins" that in Hebrews 7 explains that Jesus is the "high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

The Holy Spirit is always interceding for us, always praying for us, always coming before the throne of God in perfect harmony with God's will. The Spirit is the one who works out that will of God and that desire of Christ by holding on to us, interceding for us incessantly as the great priest who dwells within us. All things are working together for good because the Holy Spirit is interceding for us, because the Son at the right hand of God is interceding for us.

Priests today are pastors, shepherds, and etc.

 

[Rebekah30]

Yes, but not quiet the same. Jesus was the FINAL priest relating to sacrifices. In the Old Testament Leviticus 9:7 Moses said to Aaron, "Come to the altar and sacrifice your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people; sacrifice the offering that is for the people and make atonement for them, as the LORD has commanded." In the New Testament, Hebrews 5 explains that "Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins" that in Hebrews 7 explains that Jesus is the "high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

The Holy Spirit is always interceding for us, always praying for us, always coming before the throne of God in perfect harmony with God's will. The Spirit is the one who works out that will of God and that desire of Christ by holding on to us, interceding for us incessantly as the great priest who dwells within us. All things are working together for good because the Holy Spirit is interceding for us, because the Son at the right hand of God is interceding for us.

Priests today are pastors, shepherds, and etc.

I know Jim

My problem was the words used interchangably.
In the OT there was a need for a Priest.
In the NT that need doesn't exist, in my opinion.

We all offer spiritual sacrifices and we offer our bodies as a living sacrifice daily. In that way we are Priests, a royal priesthood.

In the EO, OO, RC the role of Priest is more involved, more aligned to an OT Priest, than a role of Pastor as we know it.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I know Jim

My problem was the words used interchangably.
In the OT there was a need for a Priest.
In the NT that need doesn't exist, in my opinion.

We all offer spiritual sacrifices and we offer our bodies as a living sacrifice daily. In that way we are Priests, a royal priesthood.

In the EO, OO, RC the role of Priest is more involved, more aligned to an OT Priest, than a role of Pastor as we know it.

I agree. Priest is more related to works while Pastor is related to teaching and protecting.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I know Jim

My problem was the words used interchangably.
In the OT there was a need for a Priest.
In the NT that need doesn't exist, in my opinion.

We all offer spiritual sacrifices and we offer our bodies as a living sacrifice daily. In that way we are Priests, a royal priesthood.

In the EO, OO, RC the role of Priest is more involved, more aligned to an OT Priest, than a role of Pastor as we know it.

The Christian Church was NEVER without a clergy. (Anybody that gets past Matthew, Mark, Luke and John knows that.)

Tts 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

In the very earliest of Christianity the Bishops did most everything themselves.

They ran into the same problem as the Apostles in ACTS. They can't be everywhere and take care of so many people. So, they did exactly what the Apostles did. Divide up the work and make more like themselves. (ACTS 6)

They weren't called "Priests" per say. That's a modern western word that we use in translation. They were deacons (ACTS 6) who were promoted, trusted to be able to handle more resposability. They were called elders, presbyteros (from whence comes our translation.) They were elected of the people, by the people, for the service of people. To this day in the EO, clergy are still chosen this way.

The question is:

Did they have the right to do what the Apostles did in ACTS 6 or not?

Did they have the right to promote these men to the next level?

Did they have the right to "train" these deacons to become the next Bishops?

Did they have the right to create an office between Deacon and Bishop?

Yes or No?

Forgive me...

 

[Standing Up]

In the Old Testament, there were 3 types of priests.
A High Priest, the Levitical Priesthood, and the Priesthood of all men.


I think a better question would of been did they have the need to.

Besides the priesthood of Melchizedek, there's only one OT priestly line--Levitical. Levi had 3 sons, one of which was Aaron. He was picked to be the High Priest lineage of the Levitical tribe. The others' responsibilities were to carry, set up, tear down the Tabernacle.

The Israelites as a nation refused to hear the Voice of God, so God separated out the Levites. The other 11 tribes were then known as the children of Israel.

In the OT, there was no priesthood of men.

That is the distinction for those born-again of Christ who was of the tribe of Judah. No priesthood, save the eternal one of Melchizedek. Now, we are SUPPPOSED to be the priesthood of believers, but maybe language barriers are preventing a common understanding here.

So, just to make things easier, perhaps we could drop the priest backwardation when referring to believers and go with this model:

Born again, baby, weaned, elder.

 

[Standing Up]

The Christian Church was NEVER without a clergy. (Anybody that gets past Matthew, Mark, Luke and John knows that.)




In the very earliest of Christianity the Bishops did most everything themselves.

They ran into the same problem as the Apostles in ACTS. They can't be everywhere and take care of so many people. So, they did exactly what the Apostles did. Divide up the work and make more like themselves. (ACTS 6)

They weren't called "Priests" per say. That's a modern western word that we use in translation. They were deacons (ACTS 6) who were promoted, trusted to be able to handle more resposability. They were called elders, presbyteros (from whence comes our translation.) They were elected of the people, by the people, for the service of people. To this day in the EO, clergy are still chosen this way.

The question is:

Did they have the right to do what the Apostles did in ACTS 6 or not?

Did they have the right to promote these men to the next level?

Did they have the right to "train" these deacons to become the next Bishops?

Did they have the right to create an office between Deacon and Bishop?

Yes or No?

Forgive me...

Yes they could and did do those things. The problem is when you begin to talk about priest, which you admit is a "modern" interpretation. It fogs the conversation.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Yes they could and did do those things. The problem is when you begin to talk about priest, which you admit is a "modern" interpretation. It fogs the conversation.

Only to the western mind. We all need a good bit of eastern education.

Christianity is not from the west. It's not Latin. It's Greek and Hebrew.

It's middle eastern, coming out of Jerusalem and all of Judea.

We must learn to think the way they did... and still do, if we are to have the "TRUE" catholic (kataholos = concerned with the whole church body) mind.

Now why don't we go on and admit that what we don't like is what has come out of the western Preisthood. But it's not about the office of Priest. It's about the men that we don't like and don't trust that hold the office in the west. And the laity of the west is all but powerless to against them. So, instead of getting rid of the bad clergy, we leave the Church and go find somewhere else that we are more comfortable.

That's a copout. The Church is the responsability of the whole Church, laity included. We don't want to have to deal with it... so like most everybody in the free world, we leave.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Forgive me...