The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

Douggg said:

You are wrong. But report my post, if you think I was making an ad hominin.

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It’s enough to point out your appeals to feelings or prejudices rather than the issues.

Douggg said:

The sixth king - the one is, at the time of John, was Nero, last of the historic Julio-Claudians.

The five fallen kings are:
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius.


king 7, the one yet to come, will be the little horn person. Who will also be of that Julio-Claudian bloodline.

The little horn person evolves as....

The little horn (leader of the EU ten) > becomes the prince who shall come > becomes the Antichrist > becomes the revealed man of sin>

becomes the beast (dictator of the EU)

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Tell us, how does a contemporary leader of the EU come before the Claudius? Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?

Michael Collum said:

It states that preterists and futurists are wrong, but does not clearly establish what the new position is.

However, it is reminiscent of the time I noticed that the protestant reformation was like the dividing of the kingdom of Israel and Judah. It focused more on democracy and the focus on the amount of work being done for the reason than the economics.

It was part of a larger idea that applied the histories of Israel and Judah to church history as an allegory or "spiritual fulfillment."

The OP's idea seems to be converging all of the "sevens" in Revelation and looking at the seven churches as particular ages. Since any given age has churches meeting the descriptions of the seven churches, I tend to not use that association. In terms of sevens, I tend to use creation imagery in the prophets, gospels, and revelation to illustrate that God has been creating a new heaven and new earth since the old one was made subject to sin. With that prophetic backdrop, I would then determine which "age" we are in. I have found however, that determining things using "sevens" has the same flaw ... that it can be established that there are "weeks" when applied on an individual level .. so might actually mean nothing in the larger picture.

Anyway, that's my first attempt to understand what's going on in the piece of writing with end notes in the OP.

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My object was to expose the misapprehensions of preterism and futurism concerning the identities of the rich merchants and the harlot Babylon. Apparently, you didn’t grasp it. And the real identities were disclosed. You should read more carefully.

As to the seven churches, true “any given age has churches meeting the descriptions,” yet there are eras in which the general spirit of one of the churches dominates, such as our modern era in which society has imbibed the notion that “affluence in goods and services is the basis of ‘happiness,’ which clearly this era. And the others fall nicely into the zeitgeist of the seven eras of the Church.

Michael Collum said:

Observed Assumption 0: Reading this paper with a Futurist or Preterist logical premise, will result in an incorrect understanding of the concepts.
Observed Assumption 1: The heads of the beast are Roman Emperors. (This stands out because they're heads of blasphemy, so possibly religious or at least ideological in nature)
Observed Assumption 2: The beast seems to come out of the earth in this theology(, revelation and daniel depicts the beasts coming out of the sea. )
Observed Assumption 3: The kings of the earth are seduced by "the harlot" and drunk on her doctrines, the wine is interpreted to be the "wine."
Observed Assumption 4: The church in various ages is babylon being judged.
Observed Assumption 5: The "laodicean church age," the market driven economy, and the fornication of the harlot riding the beast are examined as the same event.
Observed Assumption 6: The gods and goddesses of the Roman empire were not devils. This ignores 1 Corinthians 10:20 and the theme of not eating food offered to idols in New Testament writings during the time of Rome.
Observed Assumption 7: The enrichment of the merchants is not a future phenomenon. The OP is speaking of the present day.
Observed Observation 8: The writing says that it cannot be Rome that is being spoken of because the class of merchants diminished under feudalism, but modern post reformation groups secularized society which enriched the merchants. This seems to be the centre of the argument that it is not a past or future thing, but "the apocalypse is now."

The rest appears to be proving the observed assumptions through the philosophers and economics around the time of reformation: Stating the end goal of protestantism was to secularize society, promote individualism, and enrich commerce and industry.

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0-True, reading the Revelation from a futurist or preterists’ premise will result in an incorrect understanding of the book.

1-My paper states the kings are kingdoms, not Roman Emperors.

2-My paper states that the sixth king comes out of the earth, as stated in Revelation 13:11.

3-Right, My paper documents the Protestant's fornication with the princes of the earth!

4-The NT states there will be a major falling away and that judgment begins with the house of God (1 Peter 4:17).

5-Yes, our market-driven age fits perfectly with the admonishment made to the Laodicean church, which was cause for judgment upon ancient Israel (Jeremiah 5:27).

6-You failed to grasp the point. Rome was a pagan kingdom that worshiped demons. Rome did not “become the habitation of devils,” at Christ’s first advent (Revelation 18:2). It always was the habitation of devils, which cannot be properly interpreted as the harlot Babylon.

7-Yes, the enrichment of the merchants in modern times makes their enrichment by ancient Rome pale in comparison.

8-Correct.

And yes, documenting one’s thesis with historical evidence, written by historians, Christian historians in many cases, is how one upholds their doctrine.

Douggg said:

The scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17 is Satan - the great red dragon of Revelation 12, said in the text of Revelation 12:9 to be Satan.
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Scarlet colored beast of Revelation 17:
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. [note: no mortally wounded, healed head. No crowns on the heads and horns]

Great Red dragon of Revelation 12:3
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. [note: no crowns on the ten horns]

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So what does it all mean, the differences in crowns, or no crowns, mortally wounded/healed head or not ?

It means that...

Revelation 17 beast picture is historic, before the 7 years begin.

Revelation 12 beast picture is that in Revelation 12, there are the full 7 years in that chapter. Revelation 12:6 1260 days of the first half. Revelation 12:14 the time/times/half time of the second half. Crowns on the 7 heads, meaning king 7 has come to power, fulfilling the prophecy of the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10.

Revelation 13 beast picture is that in Revelation 13, there are only 42 months left in the 7 years. The 42 months in Revelation 13:5.
No crowns on the 7 heads - because king 7 will have been killed, the prophecy of the 7 kings over.

king 7 is the mortally wounded but healed head. So with 42 months left, king 7 has become the beast king 8.

the ten horns have crowns, because the ten EU kings will rule with the beast, as they hand their EU kingdom over to him to be dictator, in Revelation 17:17.

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The woman riding the beast in Revelation 17, represents the Vatican, associated with Rome. Historically, persecuting Christian dissenters who sought to get free from her rule.

The ten EU kings will burn the Vatican to the ground, bitter over always having to accommodate the Vatican politically.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Jerry, I hope you get something out of this post.




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Again, beasts are interpreted as kingdoms, as in Daniel. They belong to Satan, but they are kingdoms, nonetheless. As to the crowns, the red dragon with ten horns represents pagan Rome, before it was broken by the ten horns, which history affirms.


At the fall of Rome, the crowns shift to the horns in Revelation 13, at the same time the papacy, the beast from the sea, rises.


The crowns are absent in chapter 17 because the papacy “was but is not” and the authority given the horns by the papacy, signified by the crowns, was removed when Protestantism secularized society.

Hope you’re learning from this post, Doug.

Douggg said:

There is no eighth head on the beast. There are 7 heads on the beast picture, in Revelation 17:3 , Revelation 12: 3, Revelation 13:1

Jerry, you are misunderstanding Revelation 17:9-10. The mystery of the scarlet colored beast - Satan - is that he used the garden of eden serpent beast, currently in the bottomless pit. And Satan will use the time of end little horn person, who will be killed, and brought back life - possessed by the garden of eden serpent beast spirit - to himself be thereafter called the beast.





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That's silly.


Again, how does a future leader of the EU come before Claudius? Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?

You're just poor at seeing the details, Doug.

Marilyn C said:

As to the rich merchants that grow rich by the city of Babylon. Well, that ancient city is being rebuilt.

And `every shipowner, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many trade on the sea, stood at a distance and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning,...` (Rev. 18: 17 & 18)

Iraq is building the biggest port in the world and has a fast train that passes right past Babylon. The stage is being set.

See what is happening TODAY and not in the PAST!

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Hey Marilyn, the rise of the merchants has been an ongoing process for hundreds of years, and in modern times, Protestantism, as a harlot, has facilitated them and the secular society they envisioned. And ancient Babylon cannot be interpreted as becoming “the habitation of devils;” it always was doomed.

Marilyn C said:

The premier political forum is the G 20, (G7 included) and has a rotation of 5 leaders. When that rotation will be done away with, (fallen) then the 6th leader will be chosen in the trib, and finally the A/C, the Islamic leader will be the 7th.

Too much looking back instead of what is right in front of us and forming today.

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Too much neglect of history and how the papacy fulfills the beast that rises from the sea.

Douggg said:

Jerry, the red dragon in Revelation 12 represents Satan.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The ten horns in Revelation 12:3 do not have crowns. The ten horns are end times kings. The same ten kings in Daniel 7:

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


Those ten kings (the ten horns) do not have their crowns until Revelation 13:1 when there are just 42 months left in the 7 years.

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

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Jerry, the historist view does not work. Other wise, it will be crystal clear who the beast person is who gets cast into the lake of fire at Jesus's Return.

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It's the futurist’s view that holds scriptural misapprehensions and is a poor student of history. Mark Noll, the author of The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, holds futurism as anti-intellectual, in which I must concur.

History confirms that the Germanic kings caused the fall of the Roman empire; they are the ten kings in Daniel 7:24. The Roman Empire, the fourth beast in Daniel, is illustrated as the force that “stood before the woman” who delivered “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron,” in chapter 12. Futurism cannot surmount this interpretation. The red dragon represents the Roman empire to anyone truly competent in history. Revelation 12 represents the time before the rise of ten kings in Daniel 7:24, which is why they are without crowns.

Chapter 13 represents the risen ten kings from Daniel, illustrated as having crowns on their heads. They are the ten toes in Daniel 2, also. Chapter 13 also represents the time when the beast from the sea rises, which meets all the criteria of the little horn in Daniel because it is the little horn, the papacy. The papacy legitimizes the kings of the Germanic tribes, which history affirms. Again, Futurism cannot surmount this interpretation.

Then from a historicist’s lens, the missing crowns in chapter 17 represent the time when the power of the papacy is broken by the Protestants; the papacy “was, and is not.” The papacy was no longer to legitimize the princes and kings in the West because they were now being legitimized by the Protestants, who enriched the kings and the merchants.

Revelation maintains that the papacy will rise again just before Christ returns. And the scarlet beast is cast into the lake of fire, while Satan is cast into the pit, which affirms they are not the same entity.

The futurist misapprehensions simply refuse to acknowledge the history of when the papacy influenced Justinian to war against the Visigoths, Vandals, and Ostrogoths. These campaigns uprooted three horns that impeded its supplanting in AD 538, 1260 years prior to Napoleon's confiscation of the papal lands, when it was almost dead at the hands of the Protestants and secularization.

Futurist misapprehensions tend to interrupt the linear narration in Revelation 12-20 and move chapters back and forth, out of order to shore up their misapprehensions.

Douggg said:

Jerry, you are repeating the same erroneous presumption - that the beast person, existed before the sixth king.

Regarding the 6 kings, there were...

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero

King 7 will be the little horn person, time of the end vision about him stated in Daniel 8:17
King 8 will be the little horn person after he is killed and brought back to life.

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You still haven’t explained to us, how does a contemporary leader of the EU come before Claudius? Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?