The Revolutionary Faith - Evolution is the deistic creation story of Nature's god

[lifepsyop]

Recently, I was reading the American revolutionary Ethan Allen's "Reason, the Only Oracle of Man: Or a Compendious System of Natural Religion" written about the year 1783.

In it, Ethan Allen is laying the religious groundwork for what would later be known as Theistic Evolution.

Like other writings of the 17th and 18th century, it helps us see how "Nature's god" (referenced in the Declaration of Independence) was being propped up to replace Moses' God of the Bible.

Nature's god is essentially the god of Deism. It is the eternal god that lies secretly behind all of the processions of nature, and how this god works through natural processes to maintain life is called Providence.

Reason (not Revelation) is the only pathway to discovering the truth of Nature's god. Man becomes enlightened when he partakes in the light of Reason. By using Reason, man is tapping into the eternal intelligence of the creator itself. Reality itself is one continuous 'Substance' which is the expression of Nature's god. Supernatural miracles would be considered cheap magician tricks compared to the elegance of this god expressing himself through the language of nature alone.


Roughly a century after this revolutionary movement, Evolution became the popular term to represent that continuous 'providence' of Nature's god. Providence is the way natural fitness and natural selection work over time in order to sustain life in the universe. This is the god that modern Science would be devoted to pursuing.


The 17th and 18th centuries were a time of Revolution powered by Reason and the Enlightenment. Influential people wanted to strip any remnants of divine hierarchy out of the universe.

On a political level, this meant overthrowing the altar and throne, king and church, and rendering all government down to a singular substance of atomized individuals, a bottom-up government of the people. The providence of Nature's god had another name called "Liberty", which is why today we live under something called liberal democracy.

On an economic level, this meant leveling the world into one giant marketplace governed by the "invisible hand" of global supply and demand. Economics would be governed by the same style of providential natural laws of fitness and selection.

And of course, on an academic and scientific level, any semblance of special Creation had to be stripped away and replaced by the creative powers of Nature's god: Evolution.

Everything became Evolution. Evolution is the providential expression of nature. The answer to the universe? Evolution. The answer to the Earth and planets? Evolution. The answer to life, plants, animals, and people? Evolution. Where did civilization and religion come from? Evolution. Any idea of hierarchy and order had been rendered down to that universal providence of nature.

This is the main reason why we all believe in Evolution today. Evolution is an ideological mandate of how men ought to interpret reality. Evolution is the mythological creation story received by Nature's god.

 

[Sir Joseph]

Recently, I was reading the American revolutionary Ethan Allen's "Reason, the Only Oracle of Man: Or a Compendious System of Natural Religion" written about the year 1783.

In it, Ethan Allen is laying the religious groundwork for what would later be known as Theistic Evolution.

Like other writings of the 17th and 18th century, it helps us see how "Nature's god" (referenced in the Declaration of Independence) was being propped up to replace Moses' God of the Bible.

Nature's god is essentially the god of Deism. It is the eternal god that lies secretly behind all of the processions of nature, and how this god works through natural processes to maintain life is called Providence.

Reason (not Revelation) is the only pathway to discovering the truth of Nature's god. Man becomes enlightened when he partakes in the light of Reason. By using Reason, man is tapping into the eternal intelligence of the creator itself. Reality itself is one continuous 'Substance' which is the expression of Nature's god. Supernatural miracles would be considered cheap magician tricks compared to the elegance of this god expressing himself through the language of nature alone.


Roughly a century after this revolutionary movement, Evolution became the popular term to represent that continuous 'providence' of Nature's god. Providence is the way natural fitness and natural selection work over time in order to sustain life in the universe. This is the god that modern Science would be devoted to pursuing.


The 17th and 18th centuries were a time of Revolution powered by Reason and the Enlightenment. Influential people wanted to strip any remnants of divine hierarchy out of the universe.

On a political level, this meant overthrowing the altar and throne, king and church, and rendering all government down to a singular substance of atomized individuals, a bottom-up government of the people. The providence of Nature's god had another name called "Liberty", which is why today we live under something called liberal democracy.

On an economic level, this meant leveling the world into one giant marketplace governed by the "invisible hand" of global supply and demand. Economics would be governed by the same style of providential natural laws of fitness and selection.

And of course, on an academic and scientific level, any semblance of special Creation had to be stripped away and replaced by the creative powers of Nature's god: Evolution.

Everything became Evolution. Evolution is the providential expression of nature. The answer to the universe? Evolution. The answer to the Earth and planets? Evolution. The answer to life, plants, animals, and people? Evolution. Where did civilization and religion come from? Evolution. Any idea of hierarchy and order had been rendered down to that universal providence of nature.

This is the main reason why we all believe in Evolution today. Evolution is an ideological mandate of how men ought to interpret reality. Evolution is the mythological creation story received by Nature's god.

Since I haven't read the book, I'll only counter 3 of the points you've made in referencing it.

First, I'd refute the implication that America's Founding Fathers were Deists. I know that such is taught in schools today and accepted by most people, but with very few exceptions, it's a lie that undermines our nation's true Christian heritage. I wish I could write a post detailing the actual writings of our most prominent Founding Fathers, but the evidence is too extensive to put into a single thread post. For anyone interested though in learning about this one popular charge against America's Christian heritage, I encourage you to watch these two excellent sermons.

Second, I'd refute the definition of Providence being proposed here. Again, with a whole series of videos, I could demonstrate that America's Founding Fathers used the term Providence to mean the God of the Bible or his Divine actions upon the affairs of the nation. We have 13 Continental Congress Proclamations, numerous presidential inauguration speeches, and other writings from the Founding Fathers that repeatedly affirm this intent and meaning.

Third, I'd note that everyone doesn't believe in (Macro, Darwinian) evolution today. Granted, it's taught in the schools, advanced by the media, museums, and culture, and accepted as fact by a majority of people, but there's still a significant minority of people who reject it - from various religions by the way, not just evangelical Christians holding to the Bible.

On the other hand, if I interpret your conclusion right, I think we can categorize evolution as a religion. It is, after all, a belief system of where we came from, why we're here, and what lies ahead. As you say, that does dictate how we interpret reality - our world view.

 

[lifepsyop]

Since I haven't read the book, I'll only counter 3 of the points you've made in referencing it.

First, I'd refute the implication that America's Founding Fathers were Deists. I know that such is taught in schools today and accepted by most people, but with very few exceptions, it's a lie that undermines our nation's true Christian heritage. I wish I could write a post detailing the actual writings of our most prominent Founding Fathers, but the evidence is too extensive to put into a single thread post.

It's like Theistic Evolution, which is a syncretization of Christianity and Deism. There was most certainly a huge element of Deism in the founding fathers. Remember, this time was called the "Age of Reason"... Enlightenment was in the air and the water and that movement was headed by the cult of reason.

"Nature's god" was specifically venerated in the Declaration of Independence, which is a known reference to the god of deism, the god that is discovered through reason and nature, not divine revelation.

I think it's important also to note that the American Revolution itself was a pretty major violation of Romans 13 and other instructions to obey authority. (not take up arms against them)... The very nature of anti-monarchical revolution is non-Christian. Militarily advancing "the will of the people" was an Enlightenment / Deist crusade, often dressed up in Christian language.

Second, I'd refute the definition of Providence being proposed here. Again, with a whole series of videos, I could demonstrate that America's Founding Fathers used the term Providence to mean the God of the Bible or his Divine actions upon the affairs of the nation. We have 13 Continental Congress Proclamations, numerous presidential inauguration speeches, and other writings from the Founding Fathers that repeatedly affirm this intent and meaning.

Theistic Evolutionists also say they are following the God written of in the Bible, but they insist the Bible isn't any kind of authority on earth history, or reality itself for that matter. For these answers they defer to Nature's god. The Bible is only how men imagine God and his creation, they say.

This is a lot like Thomas Jefferson respecting the Bible as a book of wisdom and morality, but denying any content concerning miracles or the supernatural.

Third, I'd note that everyone doesn't believe in (Macro, Darwinian) evolution today. Granted, it's taught in the schools, advanced by the media, museums, and culture, and accepted as fact by a majority of people, but there's still a significant minority of people who reject it - from various religions by the way, not just evangelical Christians holding to the Bible.

On the other hand, if I interpret your conclusion right, I think we can categorize evolution as a religion. It is, after all, a belief system of where we came from, why we're here, and what lies ahead. As you say, that does dictate how we interpret reality - our world view.

Yes, only I would categorize Evolution more as the creation story of Nature's god. It's analogous to a Christian would say that all things are held together in the person of Christ. (Colossians 1:17) An Evolutionist says that all things are generated, sustained, or destroyed through the law of evolution, or that evolution is the universal expression of God's being and creative power.

In the Bible, original sin is found in partaking in forbidden wisdom, and salvation is found in belief and obedience in Jesus Christ.

For Nature's god, the original sin is ignorance, and salvation is Enlightenment found within Nature by Reason.

 

[Niels]

Many of us believe that the God of Moses is nature's God. If he isn't, if he is merely some supposed god that happens to live here, then we're worshiping an idol or false god rather than the creator himself.

The basic philosophy behind theistic evolution is that God created it all regardless of the method he used.

"In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God."
- John 1:1


I tend to think that there is a mechanism behind the miraculous and that miracles are rare because God created the laws of nature on purpose. Not something that he would be inclined to frequently interrupt. He is supernatural in the sense that he is nature's creator and sustainer. He is able to act upon it in unexpected ways, but the system of nature itself is no less remarkable.

Nevertheless, nature is the stage upon which we live our lives. We are beings made in God's image. Jesus talked about how it is greater to forgive somebody's sin than it is to bring them back to life. Miracles that we might experience as such are apparently less miraculous than the forgiveness of our sins.

Reason and revelation can both provide useful insight about creation. Revelation can take the form of a "Eureka!" moment which may later be supported with reason, data, experience, etc. Which isn't to suggest that our finite mortal minds will ever fully comprehend the nature of reality, but insight can take many forms.

 

[lifepsyop]

Many of us believe that the God of Moses is nature's God. If he isn't, if he is merely some supposed god that happens to live here, then we're worshiping an idol or false god rather than the creator himself.

The basic philosophy behind theistic evolution is that God created it all regardless of the method he used.

It's a strange combination because the motivation for advancing Nature's god was in abolishing the history of Moses.

To Deists, it was nature herself who held the true secrets of the universe and its history. The idea of earth history being accurately revealed and recorded by bronze age goat-herders was abhorrent and challenged the very foundation of Enlightenment.

Since at least the 1600's the course for discovering the "true history" of earth was already being set in stone. This "true history" would be found by studying nature. The ideological commitment for concluding "Evolution" was already solidified before actual biological evolution was even a specific idea... because Evolution is really just another way of saying "nature did it"...

That is why we all believe in an evolutionary history of the earth, because of the ideological demand for it.

Evolution is the creation myth of the Enlightenment.

 

[The Barbarian]

First, I'd refute the implication that America's Founding Fathers were Deists. I know that such is taught in schools today and accepted by most people, but with very few exceptions, it's a lie that undermines our nation's true Christian heritage.

It seems that the "Christian beliefs" of the Founders were rather unorthodox for the most part, although few of them seem to have been "orthodox" deists..

The only really plausible cases are Franklin and Jefferson. There is no doubt that both were taken with deist doctrines in their youth and that they informed their mature religious convictions. Yet neither entirely embraced the religion of nature, especially in its militant form. Franklin never accepted the divinity of Christ, but he did specifically argue for a providential view of history. As for Jefferson, there is some evidence that by the late 1790’s he had abandoned his deism for the materialist Unitarianism of Joseph Priestly. This is not to suggest that there were no deists in the founding. Thomas Paine assuredly fits the bill, as do Ethan Allen, Phillip Freneau, and possibly Stephen Hopkins. But these comprise a small fraction of the B-list, not the cream of the crop.

First, note that while the aforementioned founders were not deists, they were far from traditional in their beliefs. Washington may not have mentioned Jesus because he doubted the divinity of Christ, a doubt that was assuredly shared by Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, and possibly
Mason and Madison as well.
Deism and the Founding of the United States, Divining America, TeacherServe®, National Humanities Center

Clearly, the intent of the founders was not to establish a Christian nation. James Madison notes how that worked out in Europe. Neither he nor any of the other founders wanted anything to do with that:

Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.
James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments

 

[The Barbarian]

Since at least the 1600's the course for discovering the "true history" of earth was already being set in stone. This "true history" would be found by studying nature. The ideological commitment for concluding "Evolution" was already solidified before actual biological evolution was even a specific idea... because Evolution is really just another way of saying "nature did it"...

For a Christian, evolution is the way God did it. As He mentions in Genesis, He uses nature to do most things in this world. Evolution is something we see happening constantly in His world. Why would you suppose it goes on contrary to His will?

That is why we all believe in an evolutionary history of the earth, because of the ideological demand for it.

There is no "evolutionary history of the Earth." That is just a creationist superstition. Evolutionary theory is about the way living populations change over time. There is a geological history of the Earth, but ironically, scientists only reluctantly accepted it, because they had a pre-existing ideological adherence to a very young Earth.

Roderick Murchison, for example, only gradually and reluctantly concluded that the evidence showed a very ancient Earth.

Evolution is the creation myth of the Enlightenment.

The philosophers of the enlightenment concluded that each species was an idea in the mind of God and therefore no species could become extinct. That assumption took a long time to debunk.

Victorian geologist Charles Lyell, who tried to establish geology as serious science without such speculations, tried first to deny and then minimize the role of extinction events in Earth´s history. Lyell accepted the local extinction of species as consequences of climatic change, competition and human activity (like in the case of the Dodo). However, he believed these local extinctions were reversible, surviving animals could spread again from a refuge when the conditions were favorable again.

How Scientists Discovered The Extinction Of Species

At first, scientists didn't believe that species could become extinct. Here's the history of how that changed.

www.forbes.com

 

[lifepsyop]

For a Christian, evolution is the way God did it. As He mentions in Genesis, He uses nature to do most things in this world. Evolution is something we see happening constantly in His world. Why would you suppose it goes on contrary to His will?

There's your Freudian slip.

"uses nature" = "evolution"

I know you wish that E word had a little more precision.

There is no "evolutionary history of the Earth."

I agree.

That is just a creationist superstition.

Huh? No, it's what you believe, remember?

Formation and evolution of the Solar System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Evolutionary theory is about the way living populations change over time.

"evolution theory" is simply the biological aspect of Evolution. (there is also a geologic, planetary, cosmic aspects of Evolution) As you admitted in your first paragraph, Evolution is just nature doing things.

There is a geological history of the Earth,

Yea, the geologic history is how you believe Earth evolved.

3.5 million hits for "planetary evolution" on Google Scholar.

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

It's not my fault your creation story uses such an ambiguous term... I'm just repeating the consensus view. Take it up with them.

 

[The Barbarian]

For a Christian, evolution is the way God did it. As He mentions in Genesis, He uses nature to do most things in this world. Evolution is something we see happening constantly in His world. Why would you suppose it goes on contrary to His will?

There's your Freudian slip.

Perhaps you don't know what a "Freudian slip" is. What do you think it is.

"uses nature" = "evolution"

No. God uses nature for most everything He does in this world. Evolution is just a small part of that.

I know you wish that E word had a little more precision.

Perhaps you don't know that biological evolution has a very precise definition. What did you think it was? Please tell us what you thought it was; it could be the source of your problems with evolution.

There is no "evolutionary history of the Earth." That is just a creationist superstition. Evolutionary theory is about the way living populations change over time. There is a geological history of the Earth, but ironically, scientists only reluctantly accepted it, because they had a pre-existing ideological adherence to a very young Earth.

I agree.

Evolutionary theory is about the way living populations change over time.

"evolution theory" is simply the biological aspect of Evolution.

That's evolutionary theory. As you just learned, there's no geological evolution. It's geological history. Entirely different theory. It's a tired old dodge, creationists trying to make evolution about everything in the universe. I don't know why you guys even try it these days.

Evolution is just nature doing things.

So is electricity. That's God's creation, too. Why don't you just accept it and make your peace with Him?

Yea, the geologic history is how you believe Earth evolved.

The Earth doesn't have alleles. You're confused again.

3.5 million hits for "planetary evolution" on Google Scholar.

You do know that "evolution" merely means "change", right? Darwin only used the word once in his entire book. He preferred "descent with modification." It might save you some confusion if you used Darwin's terminology in the future. It would surely save you a lot of embarrassment.

Most scientists don't have any difficulty remembering that in biology, it's about the way populations change over time, and in cosmology, planetary evolution is about the way solar systems form. But if you have trouble with the concept, just go with "descent with modification" and it won't be so difficult for you.

 

[lifepsyop]

There is no "evolutionary history of the Earth." ... There is a geological history of the Earth

and....

You do know that "evolution" merely means "change", right?

round and round we go... you come out with the typical pedantry and then concede that there wasn't anything to argue about in the first place.

 

[The Barbarian]

You do know that "evolution" merely means "change", right? Darwin only used the word once in his entire book. He preferred "descent with modification." It might save you some confusion if you used Darwin's terminology in the future. It would surely save you a lot of embarrassment.

round and round we go... you come out with the typical pedantry and then concede that there wasn't anything to argue about in the first place.

That was my point. But now you seem to have figured it out. Well done. Remember, use "descent with modification" and you'll no longer be confused.

 

[lifepsyop]

But now you seem to have figured it out. Well done.

I do and thank you for the acknowledgement.

If you ever want to return to the thread and address any of the actual content in my original post, you are most welcome.

Take care!

 

[The Barbarian]

If you ever want to return to the thread and address any of the actual content in my original post, you are most welcome.

You wrote:

Everything became Evolution. Evolution is the providential expression of nature. The answer to the universe? Evolution. The answer to the Earth and planets? Evolution. The answer to life, plants, animals, and people? Evolution. Where did civilization and religion come from? Evolution. Any idea of hierarchy and order had been rendered down to that universal providence of nature.

This is the main reason why we all believe in Evolution today. Evolution is an ideological mandate of how men ought to interpret reality. Evolution is the mythological creation story received by Nature's god.

As you see, all of that has been debunked in this thread. Your confusion of the general term "evolution" (change) and biological evolution (descent with modification specifically change in allele frequencies in a population) has been corrected. "Nature's God" is the Creator; nature is just one of his creations, which includes biological evolution, physical laws, etc.

Your first paragraph is a tautology. "All change is the result of change." And you're wrong about it covering everything. God being eternal, experiences no change whatever.

 

[lifepsyop]

Your confusion of the general term "evolution" (change) and biological evolution (descent with modification specifically change in allele frequencies in a population) has been corrected.

Read what you just wrote.... Your "correction" is: change =/= change.

Perhaps I am not the one who is confused.

(and you may want to note that being overly pedantic will sometimes get you ensnared in your own pedantry.)

"Nature's God" is the Creator; nature is just one of his creations, which includes biological evolution, physical laws, etc.

Yes, as I already summarized in the OP, this belief system is known as Deism. Do you have some content to add?

Your first paragraph is a tautology. "All change is the result of change."

- "Evolution is the result of change over time" - is most certainly a tautology that evolutionists invoke all the time as if it were an argument or clarification.


My paragraph:

Everything became Evolution. Evolution is the providential expression of nature. The answer to the universe? Evolution. The answer to the Earth and planets? Evolution. The answer to life, plants, animals, and people? Evolution. Where did civilization and religion come from? Evolution. Any idea of hierarchy and order had been rendered down to that universal providence of nature.

What I've said here is that the origin and history of all the cosmos has been reinterpreted through the lens of 'natural change over time' i.e. "Evolution".

As I expanded on in the OP, this change replaced or at best syncretized Moses' God with Nature's god.


The reason that the God of Moses and the god of Nature are so different is that Moses' God routinely invades world history at which times the regular processions of nature bow down to His particular will, in the sight of all. (It's written there in the Bible)

Nature's god of Deism is ever distant and veiled by his creation, waiting to be unlocked only through the powers of Reason. (never Revelation of scripture) It denies not just the Creation account in Genesis, but it denies the actuality of most (if not all) of the Biblical accounts of God's works on the earth (e.g. the parting of the Red Sea during the Exodus that He instructed his people to celebrate and remember).

Nature's god tells us that the true history has been revealed by reason and the natural sciences... and that Exodus, Deuteronomy, Joshua, etc. are all books of myths just like Genesis.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Recently, I was reading the American revolutionary Ethan Allen's "Reason, the Only Oracle of Man: Or a Compendious System of Natural Religion" written about the year 1783.

In it, Ethan Allen is laying the religious groundwork for what would later be known as Theistic Evolution.

Like other writings of the 17th and 18th century, it helps us see how "Nature's god" (referenced in the Declaration of Independence) was being propped up to replace Moses' God of the Bible.

Nature's god is essentially the god of Deism. It is the eternal god that lies secretly behind all of the processions of nature, and how this god works through natural processes to maintain life is called Providence.

Reason (not Revelation) is the only pathway to discovering the truth of Nature's god. Man becomes enlightened when he partakes in the light of Reason. By using Reason, man is tapping into the eternal intelligence of the creator itself. Reality itself is one continuous 'Substance' which is the expression of Nature's god. Supernatural miracles would be considered cheap magician tricks compared to the elegance of this god expressing himself through the language of nature alone.


Roughly a century after this revolutionary movement, Evolution became the popular term to represent that continuous 'providence' of Nature's god. Providence is the way natural fitness and natural selection work over time in order to sustain life in the universe. This is the god that modern Science would be devoted to pursuing.


The 17th and 18th centuries were a time of Revolution powered by Reason and the Enlightenment. Influential people wanted to strip any remnants of divine hierarchy out of the universe.

On a political level, this meant overthrowing the altar and throne, king and church, and rendering all government down to a singular substance of atomized individuals, a bottom-up government of the people. The providence of Nature's god had another name called "Liberty", which is why today we live under something called liberal democracy.

On an economic level, this meant leveling the world into one giant marketplace governed by the "invisible hand" of global supply and demand. Economics would be governed by the same style of providential natural laws of fitness and selection.

And of course, on an academic and scientific level, any semblance of special Creation had to be stripped away and replaced by the creative powers of Nature's god: Evolution.

Everything became Evolution. Evolution is the providential expression of nature. The answer to the universe? Evolution. The answer to the Earth and planets? Evolution. The answer to life, plants, animals, and people? Evolution. Where did civilization and religion come from? Evolution. Any idea of hierarchy and order had been rendered down to that universal providence of nature.

This is the main reason why we all believe in Evolution today. Evolution is an ideological mandate of how men ought to interpret reality. Evolution is the mythological creation story received by Nature's god.

I think you need to disjoin and isolate the theory of evolution itself from the notion that it has much of anything to do with the nature of Prophetic Speech in the Bible. One can be convinced that the Theory of Evolution has some substantive bearing upon our physical understanding of the biological development of the world but still value and believe that the Bible is Inspired and communicates God's message of redemption through Christ to the World.

 

[The Barbarian]

I think you need to disjoin and isolate the theory of evolution itself from the notion that it has much of anything to do with the nature of Prophetic Speech in the Bible. One can be convinced that the Theory of Evolution has some substantive bearing upon our physical understanding of the biological development of the world but still value and believe that the Bible is Inspired and communicates God's message of redemption through Christ to the World.

Today's winner.

 

[The Barbarian]

"Nature's God" is the Creator; nature is just one of his creations, which includes biological evolution, physical laws, etc.

Yes, as I already summarized in the OP, this belief system is known as Deism.

Actually, it's called "Christianity." According to scripture, God is the Creator, and nature is among His creations. There are religions that deny this, and argue that the world was made by a demiurge. Your faith is called "gnosticism."

Moses' God routinely invades world history at which times the regular processions of nature bow down to His particular will, in the sight of all. (It's written there in the Bible)

Actually, it's not routine. Not surprisingly, God made nature to act according to His will. He intervenes in nature not because He has to tinker with it to make it work, but as means of teaching us something. Your god is much smaller than the God of Moses.

This probably won't mean much to you, but God created every particle of the world, and everything exists only because of His continuous conscious involvement with it. It is His creation and it works exactly as He created it to work.

 

[The Barbarian]

"Evolution is the result of change over time" - is most certainly a tautology that evolutionists invoke all the time as if it were an argument or clarification.

Actually, biological evolution is a change over time. Fitness and speciation are results of that change. Part of your confusion is, you can't keep terms straight. As you should know by now, Darwin's discovery was how that change tends to increase fitness and produce new species. Would you like me to show you how that works, again?

 

[lifepsyop]

"Nature's God" is the Creator; nature is just one of his creations, which includes biological evolution, physical laws, etc.

Actually, it's called "Christianity." According to scripture, God is the Creator, and nature is among His creations. There are religions that deny this, and argue that the world was made by a demiurge. Your faith is called "gnosticism."

That's easily refutable. In Gnosticism, the demiurge (the creator of the physical world) is a deceitful lesser god. I praise the Creator God as the Most High.

Gnostics use the power of hidden knowledge and enlightenment to transcend the material world and reconnect with the divine source.

Who does that sound more like?

Naturalist philosophers who were convinced they had become illuminated to the truth about reality by penetrating the secrets of nature through the power of their own reasoning ?

He intervenes in nature not because He has to tinker with it to make it work, but as means of teaching us something. Your god is much smaller than the God of Moses.

Tinker? Interesting choice of words. Would you say God has had to "tinker" with humanity at all? Looking forward to your answer.

This probably won't mean much to you, but God created every particle of the world, and everything exists only because of His continuous conscious involvement with it. It is His creation and it works exactly as He created it to work.

Of course, and I am grateful God revealed his work to Moses. John 5:46-47

 

[The Barbarian]

"Nature's God" is the Creator; nature is just one of his creations, which includes biological evolution, physical laws, etc.
According to scripture, God is the Creator, and nature is among His creations.

That's easily refutable.

God says that's how it is. I believe Him. Your notion that God is not the creator of nature is a gnostic superstition.

Gnostics use the power of hidden knowledge and enlightenment to transcend the material world and reconnect with the divine source.
Who does that sound more like?

Sounds like you. The notion of the material world as innately evil is completely wrong. God describes it as very good. You should believe Him on that, too.

Naturalist philosophers who were convinced they had become illuminated to the truth about reality by penetrating the secrets of nature through the power of their own reasoning ?

You should let God tell you about Him, not your own reasoning.

He intervenes in nature not because He has to tinker with it to make it work, but as means of teaching us something. Your god is much smaller than the God of Moses.

Tinker?

That's what you're trying to sell here. It's not because he has to tinker with it. Miracles are to teach us things, not because He has to adjust creation.

Interesting choice of words. Would you say God has had to "tinker" with humanity at all?

God is eternal. He doesn't change. He doesn't make mistakes. Things move entirely according to His will.

It is His creation and it works exactly as He created it to work.

Of course,

Then why not just accept all of it as His creation?