The revised Old Covenant

[SabbathBlessings]

You encourage me to consult a sinful human attorney, rather than believe what God has said?

How do you know all attorneys are sinful? Only God knows this, and since you don't seem to believe in what God said plainly

Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

consulting an attorney on how agreements work might be beneficial

When one doesn't continue in an agreement, means they broke it. Why God said the fault of the agreement was with them, because they didn't continue in it, which means they broke it, not Him. He promised He would not break His covenant, nor alter His words and God keeps His promises. Why the New Covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6 not changing the words, because we can't make something what God personally wrote, perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 more perfect, but He promises to help us keep His law that He wrote in our hearts through our love, faith and willingness to cooperate with His Spirit John 14:15-18

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

Yahweh didn't break the covenant, he sent Jesus to fulfil it. And Jesus did fulfil it. Now it is obsolete. Not altered, obsolete.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yahweh didn't break the covenant, he sent Jesus to fulfil it. And Jesus did fulfil it. Now it is obsolete. Not altered, obsolete.

Basically this is an attack on God's character that He doesn't keep His promises Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 and you will never be able to convince me of this.

So we can worship other gods, steal, covet, break God's Sabbath and profane Him, vain His holy name? Nah, that's not what fulfill means, not what Jesus ever taught. Fulfill in this context means to fill full, like one fulfills their wedding vows. Does fulfilling their wedding agreement mean one can commit adultery? Of course not. This makes a mockery of Christ great Sacrifice if we can just continue on sinning.

Jesus didn't contradict Himself in the same passage, I did not come to destroy the law or prophets but came to make it obsolete. Not a jot or tittle can pass, heaven and earth will pass before a dot of and i or cross of a t can be removed from His law and heaven and earth are still here, so until all the law and prophets are fulfilled, which is when Jesus comes in the clouds, nothing can be removed from God's law. Why breaking and teaching others to break the least of these commandments affects if we will be in heaven or not Mat 5:19-20 because not keeping, shows rebellion against our Maker and the laws He asked us to obey through our faith and love. Keeping them by love and faith is what reconciles us Rev 22:14

If God's law ended at the cross, then there was no need for His great Sacrifice, He could have just got rid of the law. If the law goes, than no need for grace, if grace goes than no need for a Savior. If we have no need for a Savior, then we are all lost. I can see why the other spirit loves this argument, we don't have to keep God's law and can disobey Him and live, he has been using this argument since the garden and sadly, seems to be still effective for the majority.

 

[Hawkins]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

The big picture is, God has a set of heavenly Law applicable to both angels and humans. Law is reserved by the Final Judgment on angels and humans alike. However under this Law no human "survives", they shall be removed together with Earth as a whole during Noah's flood. Through Jesus Covenant (a series of them) is granted specially to humans, such that they are savable. A Judgment will follow, it's a Judgment of Covenant (for humans only) instead of a Judgment of Law (of which only 2/3 angels but no human can practically pass).

The heavenly set of Law on the other hand is not demonstratable, as only angels are practically under this set of Law (not a single human can be deemed righteous under Law or the Judgment of Law to be more specific). God thus demonstrated Law through the Mosaic Covenant with His chosen Israel. From the legal/lawful perspective, Mosaic Covenant only applies to the legitimate Jews (signified by circumcision of male Jews). At the same time, human covenants are with a lot of "commandments" in common. In OT these common commandments are enforced as Law but in NT the same commandments, if still part of the covenant, are no longer enforced as Law. They appear as Christ Teaching, or commands from Jesus instead. On the other hand, some commandments may no longer part of the NT, say, food laws and such. Even Sabbath and tithing are no longer formally a part of NT. However Lord's Day is a Sunday, observing Sabbath has a new meaning and significance. It means we need to attend God's Church on earth. Tithing has a new meaning as well, it's Love. The reality is, no individuals will actively preaching to humans living in remote districts. Christian in the US will not actively spend their own money on a mission to an Africa country. It's all coordinated by the churches. Subsequently funding are from tithing of the individuals. The more tithing the more humans living in the remote areas will have a chance to hear the Gospel. The more loving Christians are the more funding the churches will receive.

Literally in today's world, we no longer "observe the Sabbath" as commanded by NT, and we no longer have the love to tithe more. All we have is all sort of excuses not to attend church and not to tithe. Moreover, no Law nor Covenant can be forfeited from a legal/lawful perspective, as they will have to be reserved for the Final Judgment. However, perspectives can be spoken from different situations. That's why you can say that Law is forfeited in terms of the effect of Judgment, as a matter of perspectives. It is because practically and effectively humans will be judged by the Judgment of Covenant instead of Law. The effect of Law simply sentences every single human to death. From the other perspective, that is the legal and lawful perspective, it's because Law is not dead and will sentence everyone to death that we humans need the Judgment of Covenant!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Basically this makes God a liar Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 and you will never be able to convince me of this.

No. It just makes your interpretation wrong.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No. It just makes your interpretation wrong.

Thats the issue, we don't need to interpret, we should just believe Him as it reads, its very plain, its when we think we know better than what He said, that's where all the issues come in.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The big picture is, God has a set of heavenly Law applicable to both angels and humans. Law is reserved by the Final Judgment on angels and humans alike. However under this Law no human "survives", they shall be removed together with Earth as a whole during Noah's flood. Through Jesus Covenant (a series of them) is granted specially to humans, such that they are savable. A Judgment will follow, it's a Judgment of Covenant (for humans only) instead of a Judgment of Law (of which only 2/3 angels but no human can practically pass).

The heavenly set of Law on the other hand is not demonstratable, as only angels are practically under this set of Law (not a single human can be deemed righteous under Law or the Judgment of Law to be more specific). God thus demonstrated Law through the Mosaic Covenant with His chosen Israel. From the legal/lawful perspective, Mosaic Covenant only applies to the legitimate Jews (signified by circumcision of male Jews). At the same time, human covenants are with a lot of "commandments" in common. In OT these common commandments are enforced as Law but in NT the same commandments, if still part of the covenant, are no longer enforced as Law. They appear as Christ Teaching, or commands from Jesus instead. On the other hand, some commandments may no longer part of the NT, say, food laws and such. Even Sabbath and tithing are no longer formally a part of NT. However Lord's Day is a Sunday, observing Sabbath has a new meaning and significance. It means we need to attend God's Church on earth. Tithing has a new meaning as well, it's Love. The reality is, no individuals will actively preaching to humans living in remote districts. Christian in the US will not actively spend their own money on a mission to an Africa country. It's all coordinated by the churches. Subsequently funding are from tithing of the individuals. The more tithing the more humans living in the remote areas will have a chance to hear the Gospel. The more loving Christians are the more funding the churches will receive.

Literally in today's world, we no longer "observe the Sabbath" as commanded by NT, and we no longer have the love to tithe more. All we have is all sort of excuses not to attend church and not to tithe. Moreover, no Law nor Covenant can be forfeited from a legal/lawful perspective, as they will have to be reserved for the Final Judgment. However, perspectives can be spoken from different situations. That's why you can say that Law is forfeited in terms of the effect of Judgment, as a matter of perspectives. It is because practically and effectively humans will be judged by the Judgment of Covenant instead of Law. The effect of Law simply sentences every single human to death. From the other perspective, that is the legal and lawful perspective, it's because Law is not dead and will sentence everyone to death that we humans need the Judgment of Covenant!

Do you have any Scripture to go along with this? I know our opinions are important to us, but they are not the same as Scripture.

God told us the law that He has in heaven, the Ten Commandments and it has never been called the "Mosiac law" once in Scripture. God claimed it in His own Words as My Covenant, My Commandments, the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Exo 20:6 and God did not leave the law that all man will be Judged by James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14-15 to be written by a human. This is God's personal will and Testimony, Exo 31:18 Psa 40:8 The whole Bible is about the testimony of Jesus Christ, yet when it comes to His own Testimony Exo 31:18, people don't believe, or want to edit it to make it convenient for them as if man can edit something divinely written by God, which was written on stone for its eternal nature by the Holy Spirit than written in our hearts and minds for the New Covenant believer. Heb 8:10

Why the Ten Commandments is in heaven under His mercy seat, where justice and mercy will come together soon, I personally wouldn't want to remove a law covered under His mercy and He tells us in this very law who He shows mercy to Exo 20:6 and why we see them at the last trumpet Rev 11:19 before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, but when Jesus comes all of our fates will be sealed Rev 22:11. Breaking God's law is not how one is reconciled; regardless if the majority of the world teaches we don't have to keep or can edit the commandment God said to Remember. Jesus said the Second Coming will be like the days of Noah. Sadly, the world hasn't changed much.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Basically this is an attack on God's character that He doesn't keep His promises Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 and you will never be able to convince me of this.

Ah, the crux of the matter indeed. We will never be able to convince you that what is written that God has said, concerning His Own breaking of the Old Covenant, and its very strong tie to a certain thirty pieces of silver that He caused to be given to a potter, is true. You will pile in as many words as you can manage so as not to avoid caring about the words He has said on that topic.

Since we will not be able to convince you that God is willing, able, and eager to do anything that He wants to do, without any exceptions whatsoever, we should permit you to live in your piles of your words, and await God to deliver you from them. I will.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ah, the crux of the matter indeed. We will never be able to convince you that what is written that God has said, concerning His Own breaking of the Old Covenant, and its very strong tie to a certain thirty pieces of silver that He caused to be given to a potter, is true. You will pile in as many words as you can manage so as not to avoid caring about the words He has said on that topic.

Since we will not be able to convince you that God is willing, able, and eager to do anything that He wants to do, without any exceptions whatsoever, we should permit you to live in your piles of your words, and await God to deliver you from them. I will.

You haven't even addressed God's Words,. you claim He broke His covenant when He said clearly He would not. Lets stick to the discussion please.

Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

Everything else you said is pure conjecture.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

You haven't even addressed God's Words,. you claim He broke His covenant when He said clearly He would not. Lets stick to the discussion please.

Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

Everything else you said is pure conjecture.

10 And I took my staff Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 And it was broken in that day; and thus the poor of the flock that gave heed unto me knew that it was the word of Jehovah.
Zechariah 11:10-11

 

[SabbathBlessings]

10 And I took my staff Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 And it was broken in that day; and thus the poor of the flock that gave heed unto me knew that it was the word of Jehovah.
Zechariah 11:10-11

God can, will, has, and shall do anything He wants. This is not conjecture. Some, of course, want to bind God by the logic of sinful men.

@JesusFollowerForever provided a beautiful, detailed response to this showing the context of the passage

Why do you think Zeh about shepherds deletes God promise in Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-19 Heb 8:6-10

God can do anything He wants, but when He promises, He is not going to break His covenant and tells us who did, the people, not believing Him, I do not believe is a good idea, but we have free will.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree and all gets sorted out soon enough.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

To which covenant do you refer?

The ten commandments is the covenant both old and new the differences are explained in Jeremiah 31:31-33. and in Hebrews by Paul who quoted it also.

 

[ozso]

Basically this is an attack on God's character that He doesn't keep His promises Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 and you will never be able to convince me of this.

I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. Psalm 89:34

God fulfilling the law through the Messiah is neither a violation nor an alteration of His covenant.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matthew 5:18

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. John 19:30

It is finished, accomplished, fulfilled.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. Psalm 89:34

God fulfilling the law through the Messiah is neither a violation nor an alteration of His covenant.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matthew 5:18

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. John 19:30

It is finished, accomplished, fulfilled.

Lets look a little closer at the context....


Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [b]jot or one [c]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

None of these verses say not to break the least of these commandments until the cross. We weren't even born then. Jesus said not a jot or tittle of the law will pass until ALL is fulfilled. He went on to say whoever breaks and teaches others to break the least of these commandments affects us being in heaven Mat 5:19-20

There are many prophecies in the law and prophets that have yet to be fulfilled like this one that the Prophet Isaiah foretold of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ that has yet to be fulfilled

Isa 25:8
he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Jesus was very clear, not a jot or tittle can pass before ALL is fulfilled, He did not come to destroy the law or prophets like the prophet Isaiah future prophecies yet to have happened and why heaven and earth are still here, therefore, so is God's law exactly the way He said, no editing Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18

At the Cross, It is Finished is referring to His covenant being ratified by His blood and Jesus took back dominion of this earth that Satan previously had. The plan of redemption was complete but the work of Jesus is not complete until Judgement, the wheat and tares separated and those in Him are reconciled and will be with Him forevermore.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Thats the issue, we don't need to interpret, we should just believe Him as it reads, its very plain, its when we think we know better than what He said, that's where all the issues come in.

Except you do not read it just as it is written. What is written is "better promises" but you read "better promises not better laws" and that's the problem. You can't tell the difference between what is written from what you opine because of your theology. The rest of us see your error easily but you cannot.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Except you do not read it just as it is written. What is written is "better promises" but you read "better promises not better laws" and that's the problem. You can't tell the difference between what is written from what you opine because of your theology. The rest of us see your error easily but you cannot.

I said it doesn't say "better laws" it says the New Covenant is established on "better promises" Heb 8:6 and you have yet to prove this wrong. So please show me where this error of mine is from Scripture. Our words are not the same. I know my view is not the most popular, I am not looking to be popular, my goal is to be faithful to what God says and not follow the popular traditions of this world as Jesus said thats not the path to follow Mat 15:3-14.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I said it doesn't say "better laws" it says the New Covenant is established on "better promises" Heb 8:6 and you have yet to prove this wrong. So please show me where this error of mine is from Scripture. Our words are not the same.

There is no end to things that it doesn't say. It says "better promises" and that is all it says. It says absolutely nothing about "better laws" as it also says absolutely nothing about Saturday, Ellen White, and Abraham Lincoln. That is where your error lies. You read "[not better laws]" as if that has priority above "[not Saturday]" and "[not Ellen White]" and "[not Abraham Lincoln]".

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is no end to things that it doesn't say. It says "better promises" and that is all it says. It says absolutely nothing about "better laws"

Thats what I have been trying to tell you

as it also says absolutely nothing about Saturday, Ellen White, and Abraham Lincoln. That is where your error lies. You read "[not better laws]" as if that has priority above "[not Saturday]" and "[not Ellen White]" and "[not Abraham Lincoln]".

No, but it does say it has God's law placed in the hearts and minds of His believer. Heb 8:10 You will have a hard time proving the Sabbath commandment is not God's law when He personally both wrote and spoke it and claimed it was His commandment Exo 20:8-11 Exo 31:18 Exo 20:6 one He said to Remember, so listening to those who say the opposite, not a good idea.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No, but it does say it has God's law placed in the hearts and minds of His believer.

No, that specific verse does not say what you've claimed.

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.​

Heb 8:6 LSB

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, that specific verse does not say what you've claimed.

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.​

Heb 8:6 LSB

You are making very strange arguments. Its in the same passage Heb 8:10