The Resurrection

[cloudyday2]

Some people just dont like the idea of Jesus rising from the dead. For them there is always an explanation that can be had to explain it away. "The man claiming to be the risen Saviour is just an identical twin of Jesus."

So on and so forth.

In some early Christian writings, the apostle Thomas is an identical twin of Jesus - but with lots of normal human character flaws. In the canonical gospel (John I believe?), Thomas is the doubter. It's probably related to Gnostic beliefs somehow. Thomas symbolizes some idea.

 

[AV1611VET]

In some early Christian writings, the apostle Thomas is an identical twin of Jesus - but with lots of normal human character flaws. In the canonical gospel (John I believe?), Thomas is the doubter. It's probably related to Gnostic beliefs somehow. Thomas symbolizes some idea.

In the name Thomas Didymus, Didymus means "twin."

I've heard messages on who Thomas' twin brother is.

It is anyone who doubts.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Based on the opposite being true.

It's much easier to be sure they went there, than to be sure they didn't.

Wouldn't you go there to check it out, if you were a Roman?

The tomb was a sealed tomb.

I'm sure the Romans at least went there to check their seal.

So re-read the thread. I'm asking why this very scenario was never recorded.

Are you saying the gospel writers were unaware of the investigation?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I'm answering your question. Don't want your questions answered, don't ask any.

And already did.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-resurrection.7924822/page-2#post-69062601

I seem to remember you griefing me in the past. Are you going to make my efforts worthwhile here?

And if those guarding his tomb were subject to death, would you still feel the same way? The punishment for a Roman soldier falling asleep at post in that time was crucifixion. Bother to go look? The Roman's stationed guards just to prevent anyone stealing his body because he said he would rise in three days.

Not relevant to the thread. I'm asking why there was no investigation of the empty tomb. So regardless of the fate awaiting the guards, there had to be whispers going out that Jesus had risen, so why did no one go look? Answer the question please.

Why would non-Christians write about an event that would oppose their beliefs?

Not relevant to the thread. I'm asking why the investigation was not recorded in the gospels. I'm not asking you to cite secular history.

If those that didn't believe in David Blane were to write the history - they would leave out any mention of his tomb being empty. How easily people forget that history is written to support those in charge, not the opposition.

Again, I'm only asking you to cite the gospels. Cite secular history if you want, I'm not against it, but I'm focusing on the gospels.


So, yes, like I said originally, you've yet to respond to the OP at all.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Ok, since you want to play - what evidence do you have He doesn't exist? None.

My evidence that Jesus didn't exist? Not the point of the thread and I'm not claiming that. I do believe he existed.

You see, you make arguments and appeals to reason to conclude that God doesn't exists. That fallacy of argument works both ways.

Wrong again. I'm an atheist which means that I find the evidence to be unsatisfactory that God does exist. I'm not claiming that God doesn't exist any more than I can claim Allah does not exist. Simply insufficient evidence to support the case to any serious degree whatsoever.

You are 0 for 2 here already.

But you can start by showing me one single celled organism that has ever become anything other than what it started as in the lab, then you might have something besides religious belief yourself.

0 for 3.

Firstly, this is irrelevant.
Secondly, I was atheist long before I took anthropology and finally accepted evolution.
Finally, there's the bacteria that evolved to be able to digest nylon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual_reproduction
"Asexual reproduction is a type of reproduction by which offspring arise from a single organism, and inherit the genes of that parent only"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning
"In biology, cloning is the process of producing similar populations of genetically identical individuals that occurs in nature when organisms such as bacteria, insects or plants reproduce asexually."

I know what asexual reproduction is. Do you know what nonrandom survival of randomly varying organisms is? It's evolution.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It was against Jewi9sh practice to touch a dead body. Those whi did have touch one were then considr4d unclean:

Lev_5:2 Or if a soul touches any unclean thing, or the unclean dead body of an animal, or the unclean dead body of livestock, or the dead body of unclean swarming things, it being hidden from him that he is unclean and is guilty,
Lev_11:25 And anyone who lifts up their dead body shall wash his garments and shall be unclean until the evening;

There are over 20 verses about this---it was the Roman guards themselves who went to the authorities about Jesus being gone and the authorities would have been the ones to go looking for the body. The guards were facing death if it was proven they fell asleep on duty. Unfortunately, CSI was not around at the time for DNA testing and so forth--and there is no way in the world that the Romans would have admitted that they couldn't find him so they had to tell everybody that the Jews took the body. Defeats were not recorded, either in battle, or otherwise. In fact, the records of battles could be quite the opposite of what actually happened as others would record what actually happened and there are records where the kings would say they fought a victorious battle and the records of others would indicate otherwise. Face saving. There were no cameras recording everything that happened so what makes you think that the Romans didn't move heaven and earth to try and find that body?? They would have loved to announce to the whole world that it was all a lie and the best they could do was try to shut the whole thing up---didn't work.

So your answer to the question of why there was no investigation is that they tried to cover it up? Fine, that covers the antagonists. But what about those neutral and sympathetic to Christ? Again, he apparently committed more miracles than the entire library of the world could hold, so why did NOBODY care that he had apparently risen from the dead?

 

[AV1611VET]

So re-read the thread. I'm asking why this very scenario was never recorded.

Who said it wasn't recorded?

I think what you really want to ask is:

Why wasn't it preserved?

And the answer to that is simple:

It wasn't preserved because God didn't preserve it.

And God didn't preserve it, because God didn't inspire it.

Are you saying the gospel writers were unaware of the investigation?

The Gospel writers wrote what they were inspired to write.

After all, they were God's personal hand-picked secretaries.

Notice here were Jude started to write about salvation:

Jude 3a Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation,

... but was inspired of God to write something else instead:

Jude 3b ... it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

[mmksparbud]

So your answer to the question of why there was no investigation is that they tried to cover it up? Fine, that covers the antagonists. But what about those neutral and sympathetic to Christ? Again, he apparently committed more miracles than the entire library of the world could hold, so why did NOBODY care that he had apparently risen from the dead?

Everybody rejoiced He had risen from the grave--the apostles knew, Mary was there and say the empty tomb--so did the other apostles, Why would they be looking for a dead body when they had the live one in front of them? Remember, the tomb was sealed with a huge rock in front of it and required several people to move it--that had been rolled away and the tomb was empty. It was easy to see it was empty. Everyone from then on has cared very much that He has risen from the grave!

 

[cloudyday2]

In the name Thomas Didymus, Didymus means "twin."

I've heard messages on who Thomas' twin brother is.

It is anyone who doubts.

Another theory I have read is that the theology in the Gospel of John was in competition with the theology of the Gospel of Thomas (one of the more popular non-canonical gospels). The story of doubting Thomas was included in the Gospel of John to diminish the status of Thomas and therefore the theology of the Gospel of Thomas.

Another curious character is Judas. Was he portrayed as a villain, because he was a hero of some rival theology?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Who said it wasn't recorded?

I think what you really want to ask is:

Why wasn't it preserved?

And the answer to that is simple:

It wasn't preserved because God didn't preserve it.

And God didn't preserve it, because God didn't inspire it.The Gospel writers wrote what they were inspired to write.

After all, they were God's personal hand-picked secretaries.

Notice here were Jude started to write about salvation:

Jude 3a Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation,

... but was inspired of God to write something else instead:

Jude 3b ... it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

There are a ton of meaningless details recorded in the gospels. An event like this would be important. An event like this places the resurrection event squarely in that time. As it stands the story looks like a legend that grew over time, which is consistent with the decades-long gap between the death and when pen first went to paper.

Cursing a fig tree is important, but not the investigation of the empty tomb?

What you are saying is not only conjecture, but it is not plausible.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Everybody rejoiced He had risen from the grave--the apostles knew, Mary was there and say the empty tomb--so did the other apostles, Why would they be looking for a dead body when they had the live one in front of them? Remember, the tomb was sealed with a huge rock in front of it and required several people to move it--that had been rolled away and the tomb was empty. It was easy to see it was empty. Everyone from then on has cared very much that He has risen from the grave!

Please re-read the OP, you seem to be confused on the point of discussion.

 

[mmksparbud]

Please re-read the OP, you seem to be confused on the point of discussion.

I'm confused???!!!---I was responding to YOUR question!!!

So your answer to the question of why there was no investigation is that they tried to cover it up? Fine, that covers the antagonists. But what about those neutral and sympathetic to Christ? Again, he apparently committed more miracles than the entire library of the world could hold, so why did NOBODY care that he had apparently risen from the dead?

If I do not understand the point of discussion, then what does that say about your questions????

 

[AV1611VET]

There are a ton of meaningless details recorded in the gospels.

No, there aren't.

Every word was written for our admonition and learning.

Some say "gospel" means "good news."

An event like this would be important.

What event?

Antagonists crawling all over the empty tomb?

I agree.

An event like this places the resurrection event squarely in that time.

Whenever it happened, it happened according to God's timing -- not man's.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

As it stands the story looks like a legend that grew over time, which is consistent with the decades-long gap between the death and when pen first went to paper.

I disagree.

Cursing a fig tree is important, but not the investigation of the empty tomb?

The tomb was empty.

What's to investigate?

In fact, Jesus did leave something behind -- something a professional waiter would catch, but not a scientist.

John 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
John 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

When a diner leaves his table because he is done, he will drop his napkin on the table and leave it there crumbled up.

But when a diner leaves his table intending to come back, he folds his napkin and lays it in his chair.

This tells the waiter he is coming back.

(So much for your "ton of meaningless details".)

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

So why is it that Jesus, who apparently performed more miracles than all of the books in the whole world could record, was said to have risen from the dead and yet no one bothered to go look?

With the historical data that we have in the NT and from what we know of crucifixions as capital offences in the Roman empire, it's possible that Jesus wasn't buried and that his body was eaten by feral dogs or buried in a mass grave. Most of the time victims of crucifixion were simply left on the cross to rot. The stories about a burial may be pious fictions written to offer a sense of solace to the early Christians.

I'm personally not sure how much of the burial stories are historical or not...

 

[AV1611VET]

With the historical data that we have in the NT and from what we know of crucifixions as capital offences in the Roman empire, it's possible that Jesus wasn't buried and that his body was eaten by feral dogs or buried in a mass grave.

Not even cooties corrupted His body.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Not even cooties corrupted His body.

Well, my point is that as a historian I could only say that I don't know what happened to Jesus' corpse. As a theologian I would agree with JPII (perhaps one of the few times) and say that the Resurrection of Jesus was a transhistorical event.

 

[mmksparbud]

LOL--desperation leads to much imaginings!
The Jews dealt with their dead in very specific ways. The body was washed and many spices were used to cover the body. It was then wrapped in linen and then buried in caves---one year later, they would bring out the body, unwrap it, place all the bones in a box. This wasn't just a custom some followed, it was mandated. Poverty would cheapen things to low quality linen and not so many spices, but friends and family and even priests would do this if there was absolutely nobody to do it, they always took care of their dead. And it was Joseph of Arimathaea that had the body prepared and it would have been him that would have gone back to finish the work---which he never had to do. Mass graves--not--Joseph petitioned Pilate himself for the body so there was a body.

Joh_19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, my point is that as a historian I could only say that I don't know what happened to Jesus' corpse.

I know what happened to Jesus' corpse.

But then, I'm not a historian.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

LOL--desperation leads to much imaginings!
The Jews dealt with their dead in very specific ways. The body was washed and many spices were used to cover the body. It was then wrapped in linen and then buried in caves---one year later, they would bring out the body, unwrap it, place all the bones in a box. This wasn't just a custom some followed, it was mandated. Poverty would cheapen things to low quality linen and not so many spices, but friends and family and even priests would do this if there was absolutely nobody to do it, they always took care of their dead. And it was Joseph of Arimathaea that had the body prepared and it would have been him that would have gone back to finish the work---which he never had to do. Mass graves--not--Joseph petitioned Pilate himself for the body so there was a body.

Joh_19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

Well, we don't know that this is historical. Part of me thinks it likely to have been pious story telling rather than history recorded. I don't think we'll ever actually know though.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I know what happened to Jesus' corpse.

But then, I'm not a historian.

Many historians think that Jesus was buried. I can see the argument one way or the other and simply remain unconvinced both ways.