The Resurrection

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Why are we still going around this circle with Nihilist?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Except that if we are given divine instructions, they should be... divine.

And you are in the position to determine divinity exactly how?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I'm challenging the claim of theists who tout a "moral" god, given this god exists.

OK, define a "moral" god for me.....

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was based more on economics; it was a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, many black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. The Bible condemns race-based slavery in that it teaches that all men are created by God and made in His image (Genesis 1:27). At the same time, the Old Testament did allow for economic-based slavery and regulated it. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing,” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8–10).

Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. He will see, with Paul, that a slave can be “a brother in the Lord” (Philemon 1:16). A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery.

Like to add that while the N.T. does not condemn slavery it certainly hints that the holding of and selling oneself as a slave should be a practice that fades away. See:
I Corinthians 1:21-23:
21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.

Some of the truly brutal and totally unjust slavery practices of more recent times and I'm sure of ancient times as well, to me, fall into the category of this area of Scripture if one is looking for cause and effect:
Romans 1:21-31:
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

And you are in the position to determine divinity exactly how?

OK. So neither of us mortals can determine divinity. Therefore you reject Allah because ___? You reject Mormon Jesus because ___? You reject India's millions of gods because ___?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Not sure why you double down and say that it looks correct. I didn't say any of the highlighted material here:

Sorry again N.V.
Been a death in the close relatives and so if this still bothers you, you have my permission to correct it as you see fit...afraid I'll mess it up right now.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Like to add that while the N.T. does not condemn slavery it certainly hints that the holding of and selling oneself as a slave should be a practice that fades away. See:
I Corinthians 1:21-23:
21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.

Some of the truly brutal and totally unjust slavery practices of more recent times and I'm sure of ancient times as well, to me, fall into the category of this area of Scripture if one is looking for cause and effect:
Romans 1:21-31:
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Wonderful, but how do you explain why the Old Testament God, who is also Jesus, sanctioned slavery? God, and therefore Jesus, said you may own slaves as property and you may beat them as long as you don't inflict permanent damage.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Sorry again N.V.
Been a death in the close relatives and so if this still bothers you, you have my permission to correct it as you see fit...afraid I'll mess it up right now.

Sorry for your loss. Thank you for your permission, although that still doesn't actually make me able to change anything.

 

[HitchSlap]

Yes, this is what "condone," means::

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was based more on economics; it was a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, many black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. The Bible condemns race-based slavery in that it teaches that all men are created by God and made in His image (Genesis 1:27). At the same time, the Old Testament did allow for economic-based slavery and regulated it. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing,” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8–10).

Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. He will see, with Paul, that a slave can be “a brother in the Lord” (Philemon 1:16). A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery.

 

[HitchSlap]

OK, define a "moral" god for me.....

One that prevents rape if they're capable of it.

 

[civilwarbuff]

One that prevents rape if they're capable of it.

So a god that controls everyone...no free will...

 

[HitchSlap]

So a god that controls everyone...no free will...

Would you stand by and watch your ten year old daughter being molested?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Would you stand by and watch your ten year old daughter being molested?

Please don't try to compare God and me...so you're ok without freewill?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Please don't try to compare God and me...so you're ok without freewill?

I thought it was pretty clear, actually, from how he worded it. What he means is that a rapist is free to choose to rape but that a moral god would physically prevent it... just like you would... presumably... although you defend the genocide and slavery in the Bible, so I assume you'd defend the law which outlines the process of a rape victim marrying her attacker.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I thought it was pretty clear, actually, from how he worded it. What he means is that a rapist is free to choose to rape but that a moral god would physically prevent it... just like you would... presumably... although you defend the genocide and slavery in the Bible, so I assume you'd defend the law which outlines the process of a rape victim marrying her attacker.

Who is to know how many times a rape did not happen because God intervened.

 

[HitchSlap]

Please don't try to compare God and me...so you're ok without freewill?

I understand, I wouldn't want to be compared to your god, either.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I thought it was pretty clear, actually, from how he worded it. What he means is that a rapist is free to choose to rape but that a moral god would physically prevent it... just like you would... presumably... although you defend the genocide and slavery in the Bible, so I assume you'd defend the law which outlines the process of a rape victim marrying her attacker.

again the question...you're OK without freewill?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I understand, I wouldn't want to be compared to your god, either.

Again....You're OK without freewill?

 

[HitchSlap]

again the question...you're OK without freewill?

I'm not so sure we have free will.

 

[HitchSlap]

Again....You're OK without freewill?

Freewill (assuming such a thing exists), would be used by me to stop someone from molesting my ten year old. Why doesn't your god operate under the same moral?