The Resurrection

Nihilist Virus said:

God can certainly do whatever he wants. I am simply saying that Genesis cuts against the scientific model. You seem to have missed that point.

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1 Corinthians 15 (NIV)

The Resurrection of Christ

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”
33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

The Resurrection Body
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Nihilist Virus said:

God can certainly do whatever he wants. I am simply saying that Genesis cuts against the scientific model. You seem to have missed that point.

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I bet that your understanding of science is very limited.

Science is the attempt to model a repeatable behavior to discover the governing rules behind. So first science can only aim on a repeating behavior. Second, a discovery is consider valid only when you can build a predictive model successfully.

Today's science twisted this purpose in answering human demands on giving everything a 'scientific' explanation. That's where the 'scientific' flaw is.

Nihilist Virus said:

So then it is a slippery slope to argue that if someone is shot in the head on the street corner, that people in vehicles will show up and take pictures of the body, remove it, and devote hours of their lives trying to find out who did it.

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If you are saying the people you are referring to are not part of law enforcement then yes. Only law enforcement people would be expected to act in the manner you suggested.

I apologize for posting intellectual data that you are obviously unable to comprehend based on your example. Let me make it simpler for you:

You do not know who wrote Matthew so you cannot possibly know what he should or shouldn’t include in his epistle. Saying that he should have recorded people “visiting the tomb after Easter Sunday” is a fallacy because you cannot possibly know if the author should include that information or not. It is only your unsubstantiated opinion that he should include that information. In your example of the murder scene the event that follows is expected. In the recorded account in the Bible the main points were made and no other discourse is necessary and therefore not expect (except by you of course).

Biblical evidence is that the sepulcher was guarded and sealed. There was an earthquake and the stone sealing the entrance was discovered to be rolled away. They went in and found the sepulcher empty. Some of the guards reported this to the priest while others remained at the sepulcher. This is the evidence I supplied to you from the Bible account in Matthew.

Nihilist Virus said:

The answer is pretty obvious. If the report you're getting is that the guards fell asleep and didn't see what happened, and the body is gone, YOU GO INVESTIGATE. If the report is that something supernatural happened and the body is gone, YOU GO INVESTIGATE. If not, it's because you simply don't care or are unable to physically go investigate.

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This is your opinion and your opinion only and not based on factual data. That is what makes it a slippery-slope fallacy. If your religious leaders report that the guards fell asleep and Jesus’s disciples came and stole his body why would you go to the sepulcher and investigate? What kind of investigation tools do you think they had available in those times? All the investigation they could perform is to go and look inside and see there is no body. They wasted their effort on something they already knew because the religious leaders had already confirmed it by way of the guards entrusted to watch over the seplucher. Why do you suppose the author needed to record people wasting their time? How does that add to the message he was conveying? It doesn’t.

Nihilist Virus said:

I can fully admit that my worldview does not account for everything in nature. There are holes yet to be filled. But Christians like you who act like you know everything make pursuit of the truth a pointless effort.

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I have not proclaimed I know everything nor has any comment I made in any post insinuates I know everything. I am simply supplying the information that I do know. I am not the reason you find it difficult to arrive at the truth. That is entirely your fault.

Nihilist Virus said:

Because you are literally saying this:

1. Jesus performed more miracles than could be physically recorded at the time, including healing handicapped persons and even raising others from the dead
2. The guards did not see Jesus' body being stolen, nor did they actually see the risen Jesus
3. There is no need to investigate

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No, I am saying there was an investigation and there was no need to launch another investigation “after Easter Sunday” as you are trying to fallaciously argue.

Nihilist Virus said:

The confusion is on your part. You are chopping up my words instead of replying line by line. Take a look at what you ignored:

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I didn’t ignore it as it was a rhetorical question that you posted to avoid answering my question on your false accusation that I was off-topic. You are unable to quote one post where I was off-topic; not one.

Nihilist Virus said:

OK let me get this straight. Your answer dealt entirely with matters occurring on Easter Sunday. You comprehend that my question is about events occurring after Easter Sunday. You claim to have answered my question.

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Absolutely, the answer was, is and will be that your position is based on fallacy. I showed there was an investigation and provided argument that there was no need to conduct further investigations.

Nihilist Virus said:

My question was answered? So the reason casual observers did not show up to rubberneck the empty tomb of a man who committed more miracles than could have been physically recorded is ____?

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So you are inserting that the author should have recorded people rubbernecking? What reason would that serve?

Nihilist Virus said:

If this thread is too nit-picky for you, then you can devote your efforts elsewhere.

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No effort on my part. You make it too easy.

Nihilist Virus said:

So let me see if I have your position straight on this: I quote you on several post you made and ask if you can confirm your position and that, in your opinion, is off-topic and that is why you refuse to answer those questions?

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Yes.

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So you are now saying all those posts I quoted you on have been off-topic?

Nihilist Virus said:

So you are being quite intellectually dishonest.

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Because you are unable le to comprehend intellectual dialoged is not an indication I am “intellectually dishonest” but a serious lack of intellectual skills on your part. That comment is an attack on my character which is against the forum rules. Not that you care about the rules on this forum.

Nihilist Virus said:

FYI, looking into deep space=looking backwards in time=observation of repatable patterns.

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Technically, while we are indeed looking backwards in time we're often observing events that happened only once. Our galaxy was formed only once, the big bang happened only once, etc.

Hawkins' description of scientific investigation is indeed how laboratories work. Looking into deep space is different. It's more like a branch of history, extrapolating our knowledge of the here-and-now to try and reconstruct our past.

Nihilist Virus said:

The coisufnon is on yuor prat. You are cnippohg up my wdros iaetsnd of rniylpeg lnie by lnie.

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This is chopping up your words.

Nihilist Virus said:

So we cannot study ants, because each one we look at is just one ant? Seriously, do you have any idea how many galaxies there are? Any idea how many stages of galactic evolution we are observing?

Or was your remark sarcastic? Have I fallen into a sarchasm?

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No, I am quite serious. And I earned a degree in physics so I have some familiarity with laboratories. You can repeatedly study the entire life cycles of ants in the lab, use those observations build predictive models, and then test those models against more ants. You can't do that with galaxies that are millions of light-years away. Your conclusions require extrapolations, especially if you're interested in their histories. That's not to disparage such conclusions, but to recognize that extrapolations are required.

HitchSlap said:

Who wrote "The Gospel According to Matthew"?

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Um....Matthew? [emoji12]

jason_delisle said:

Um....Matthew? [emoji12]

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Um... No.

Nihilist Virus said:

1. Your wife is murdered
2. The only "witness" somehow fell asleep, did not see the actual murder, and reports seeing one or more demons afterward
3. No investigation

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How do you know if she was murdered if there is no body. Where is Jesus' body?

Btw...the point that I am trying to make is this. The only way to PROVE the resurrection did not happen is to find the remains of Jesus' body. The same way you can only prove that someone was killed by showing a body.

Nihilist Virus said:

So you are saying that if we extrapolate, it's not science? Goodbye, atomic theory. Goodbye, iron core of the earth. Goodbye... science.

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Your melodrama can be humorous. But neither of those examples involve millions of light-years, which is what I have been talking about.

HitchSlap said:

Um... No.

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Nihilist Virus said:

Now, I think even you would agree that the truth of the resurrection, whether it happened or not, is MORE IMPORTANT than the investigation of your own wife's murder, right? So you see how this sequence of events makes no sense.

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Your line of questioning is why we believe the saying:

THE BIBLE SAYS IT, THAT SETTLES IT

I don't need the microdetails.

The Bible is a big enough Book as It is.

AV1611VET said:

Your line of questioning is why we believe the saying:

THE BIBLE SAYS IT, THAT SETTLES IT

I don't need the microdetails.

The Bible is a big enough Book as It is.

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The bible promotes slavery. I guess that settles it?

HitchSlap said:

The bible promotes slavery. I guess that settles it?

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Is that what he's really getting at?

If so, how do you know?

Did he PM you?