The resurrection... What does it prove?

[Hookflash]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Jesus did and said everything described in the Gospels (we'll also assume that the Gospels are consistent with each other). He performed miracles, claimed to be the son of God, predicted his own death, came back to life after being crucified, etc. Given all of these "facts," how is this:

1) Jesus was telling the truth. He was the son of God, and traditional Christianity is more or less true.

...more plausible than this?:

2) Jesus was lying about being the son of God. He was actually an alien who came to earth to carry out a vast social experiment.

The reason I bring this up is that I just finished watching a debate between Richard Carrier and Mike Licona, and Licona actually tried to argue that, if the resurrection really occured, then it counts as strong evidence for the existence of God. Frankly, I'm not seeing it. The resurrection could just as easily be taken as evidence for a number of whacky hypotheses (like the 2nd one above).

It seems to me that the resurrection can only have religious significance if you presuppose the existence of God (and, even then, why rule out alternative hypotheses?). What do you guys think?

Btw, I wanted to post this in the General Apologetics section, but my post count isn't high enough.

 

[Exist]

2) Jesus was lying about being the son of God. He was actually an alien who came to earth to carry out a vast social experiment.

Or better yet, a demon/spawn of Satan/Satan follower. Satan is the great deciever, the "angel of light". What better way to get a bunch of humans to quit worshiping God, than to say "I'm really God, worship me".

And of course he would have power over nature, he's the prince of the earth. He would be able to command the other demons. He couldn't forgive sin (that's the thing, they would die with their sin unforgiven), but nobody saw their sin fly out of their bodies, did they? They only heard a man say, "Your sin is forgiven." And he would have good, moral teachings, because you get more flies using honey than vinegar.

God says that he uses the lowely things to give him glory. Jesus said "All glory should go to God the Father," but was perfect, and tried to change the ways you get forgiveness.



A bit odd, don't you think?

 

[Exist]

"The path to God is narrow"....and yet, 1/3 of the world is following Christ.

 

[matthewgoh]

I wonder if the existence of God and/or the resurrection of Christ can be debated at all. We believers know that Christ is our saviour and God is watching us. But the atheists always have the points to argue against the existence of God. Why?

God allows the confusions and doubts, so that you won't see God unless you accept Christ as your saviour first. If God shows his presence to mankind..... it means Christ contradicts himself and it means God is not serious about our salvation.

So why argue againts the existence of God, i.e. why "playing" with your own salvation?

Just my thought and understanding, please forgive me if there's any offence.

 

[winsome]

The birth, life, death, resurrection of Jesus is consistent with all the prophecies of the Old Testament, and with the wholy story of the Old Testament, of God's dealing with man, and man's dealing with God. It is consistant and attested by many witnesses. There is evidence.
Whacky theories are just that - whacky theories. No evidence whatsoever.

Until men went to the moon you could argue that it was made of cheese, and even now people say that men going to the moon was a hoax, and perhaps they still believe the moon is made of cheese. Or you could propose a theory that aliens warped the minds of those who landed and they only got an illusion that it they were standing on rock, etc. etc. There are always people who are not going to face the evidence and come up with crazy suggestions a billion time more improbable that the one they won't face

 

[Adstar]

‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

........Jesus

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Kahalachan]

I wonder if the existence of God and/or the resurrection of Christ can be debated at all. We believers know that Christ is our saviour and God is watching us. But the atheists always have the points to argue against the existence of God. Why?

God allows the confusions and doubts, so that you won't see God unless you accept Christ as your saviour first. If God shows his presence to mankind..... it means Christ contradicts himself and it means God is not serious about our salvation.

So why argue againts the existence of God, i.e. why "playing" with your own salvation?

Just my thought and understanding, please forgive me if there's any offence.

When I was anti-Christian, it wasn't playing with salvation cause Christianity is one of the many other religions that can offer salvation in one form or another.

It was when I wanted to find answers and decided to find truth, rather than argue against Christianity that I decided it was the best way to go.



As for the topic, I don't find it possible that Jesus was an alien. The laws of physics as we know it state that an infinite amount of energy is needed to reach the speed of light. So an alien would have to be able to live millions or even billions of years, since they would be that many light years away.

Since God would be supernatural and can break any natural laws that he designed, I find Jesus being God more viable than Jesus being an alien.

When I wondered what Jesus really was I came to these two conclusions.

Jesus was either a madman(since no sane person claims they are God) who spread his ideologies to become the world's largest and most influential religion, or Jesus was God.

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

The biggest evidence we have for Yeshua being who he said He is, is all the people who died for Him. Look at the disciples. Every one of them took off the night he was arrested. He even told Peter he would deny Him 3 times. If He had not resurrected, and been who He said He was, they never would have started the church, and ultimately been killed for His name. The fact that they ran off at the time He needed them most shows that.

 

[Exist]

If God shows his presence to mankind..... it means Christ contradicts himself and it means God is not serious about our salvation.

If, then. I don't follow your line of reasoning. Why does it mean this if he shows himself to mankind?

 

[matthewgoh]

If, then. I don't follow your line of reasoning. Why does it mean this if he shows himself to mankind?

Sorry I am not good in quoting verses. Christ says; 1) no sign will be given to mankind, 2) man cannot see God unless he sees Christ and 3) bless are those who believe without seeing, etc..... these explain the "hidden" nature of God, so that man is saved by faith alone.

Just my thought and understanding, comments are most welcomed.

 

[dvd_holc]

1st, aliens are a mordern concern or idea. 2nd, What does bringing forward the idea of aliens do? Bring forward that assumption which we don't have much evidence the proof make it unreasonable to believe....

so then what happens if a person assumes that it was aliens doing a test...because of that presumption it more or less takes away a divine participation within Earth which bring the overall authority of God to individuals allowing people to do as they will and not have any condemination from others because the superior being is yet the individual.

However, Jesus did not call people into a purpose of being that against our natural existence. He said he wanted us to fully love which is the best possible life and bring glory onto the Creator Covenant God. Now, there is a certainity that can be tested more so than any other thing....It is that living as a loving humble servant produces harmony in life which is the natural law of life.

 

[Exist]

Well, Christ says these, because that's the way it is. But why is it that way? Not because Christ said them...

If us not knowing sends many to hell, why not just let us know if he exists or not, then we make up our mind if we want to follow or not?

Why the deception, and hidden nature?

 

[dvd_holc]

The truth is apparent in life. Every interaction that you take in life can cause harmony or disharmony. What do you choose? If you look at it just as Jesus says this is the solution to sin and that is the way it is (and that might be the way it has been presented to you), then Jesus shows up late in the game. However, John says that the Word was present in the beginning. Being that is harmony it natural is distinct from the disharmony, but it is a not a harden truth that accuses the disharmony. It is a free comforting favor of salvation as a gift. The ressurection is a vindication of the truth. It does not proof the arguement. It lives out the justice of creation that is a shadow of the final restoration of humanity.

 

[tributeman]

Lets first look a couple of days before Christs resurrection....The crucifixion!!.Now he would have to be some strange alien to put himself through that death! for what reason I dont know do you?.. The plan of salvation when God Himself would come down to suffer that torture and death to save mankind is beyond comprehension. It could have only been planned by a loving God who having such incredible power that when He spoke this universe was brought into existence yet still loved us so much that this was the only way to rescue us from eternal hell. Aliens methinks not a loving and merciful God definately.

 

[Hookflash]

The birth, life, death, resurrection of Jesus is consistent with all the prophecies of the Old Testament, and with the wholy story of the Old Testament, of God's dealing with man, and man's dealing with God. It is consistant and attested by many witnesses. There is evidence.
Whacky theories are just that - whacky theories. No evidence whatsoever.

Well, my point was: where's the evidence that God was responsible for the resurrection of Christ? It could be that Jesus was an alien with special powers who wanted to fulfill the OT prophecies as part of a vast social experiment. As intuitively implausible as this sounds (mostly because we've been inculcated with Judeo-Christian assumptions), how is it more implausible than the traditional view? I want to see a strong inductive argument that answers this question.

As for the topic, I don't find it possible that Jesus was an alien. The laws of physics as we know it state that an infinite amount of energy is needed to reach the speed of light. So an alien would have to be able to live millions or even billions of years, since they would be that many light years away.

Just as you can posit a God capable of violating the laws of nature, so could a proponent of the "alien theory" posit an advanced alien civilization that has discovered an efficient means of intergalactic travel. After all, we don't know all there is to know about physics, do we? I guess you could call my faux theory "alien of the gaps."

The biggest evidence we have for Yeshua being who he said He is, is all the people who died for Him.

My friend, that is merely evidence that they believed Jesus was who he said he was. Many people have died for many individuals you would call "false prophets."

Christ says; 1) no sign will be given to mankind, 2) man cannot see God unless he sees Christ and 3) bless are those who believe without seeing, etc..... these explain the "hidden" nature of God, so that man is saved by faith alone.

By this logic, shouldn't we expect there to be no evidence for the existence of God? Are you saying all arguments for the existence of God fail? If so, I agree.

Lets first look a couple of days before Christs resurrection....The crucifixion!!.Now he would have to be some strange alien to put himself through that death!

Well, bear in mind that we don't have access to the subjective experiences of others now, much less in the past. In other words, it could've been an act. Perhaps Jesus-the-alien is able to turn off his pain receptors at will; or, perhaps he doesn't have pain receptors, since he's able to use his powers to heal himself (and even to raise himself from the dead!). Of course, I don't believe Jesus was an alien (I hope I didn't give you guys the impression that this is what I believe). The point I'm really driving at is that the traditional Christian God hypothesis, as an explanation of the resurrection, is only one amongst a large number of equally plausible (or implausible, if you will) alternative hypotheses, so the resurrection by itself can't really be used as an argument for the existence of Yahweh.

I appreciate you guys' responses, but can I just say: I really want to be able to post in General Apologetics. I'm not looking for start fights or to offend people. I just want to have some rousing discussions with theists who enjoy a good intellectual tussle.

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

My friend, that is merely evidence that they believed Jesus was who he said he was. Many people have died for many individuals you would call "false prophets."

You missed my point. They walked with Him for 3 1/2 years, heard all He had to say, saw the miracles, etc. The night He was arrested, they ran. Something changed their mind.
Let's also look at the Apostle Paul. Here was a man that loved God, was a chief Pharisee. His job was to bring Christians in, and have them persecuted, and he enjoyed it. He hated people preaching in the name of Yeshua, and the fact they said He was God. Something, there also, had to happen to make him change his mind. He was visted by the one he was persecuting-that's the only thing that would have made him change his ways also.

 

[Hookflash]

You missed my point. They walked with Him for 3 1/2 years, heard all He had to say, saw the miracles, etc. The night He was arrested, they ran. Something changed their mind.
Let's also look at the Apostle Paul. Here was a man that loved God, was a chief Pharisee. His job was to bring Christians in, and have them persecuted, and he enjoyed it. He hated people preaching in the name of Yeshua, and the fact they said He was God. Something, there also, had to happen to make him change his mind. He was visted by the one he was persecuting-that's the only thing that would have made him change his ways also.

But couldn't all of this be explained just as easily by the Jesus-was-an-alien hypothesis? i.e., the disciples' experience could have been exactly the same. Only Jesus himself would have known that he wasn't really the son of God.

 

[dvd_holc]

But couldn't all of this be explained just as easily by the Jesus-was-an-alien hypothesis? i.e., the disciples' experience could have been exactly the same. Only Jesus himself would have known that he wasn't really the son of God.

are you an alien?

 

[thepianist]

The resurrection...what does it prove?

Great question - but I just imagine you won't like my answer. Pure and simple - the resurrection proves that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

[matthewgoh]

If us not knowing sends many to hell, why not just let us know if he exists or not, then we make up our mind if we want to follow or not?
Why the deception, and hidden nature?

This is solely my opinion.....

Believe by faith;

God is love, righteousness and just. The crucifixion of Jesus is his greatest plan to bring back the salvation to mankind. However there is only one condition to receive the salvation, that is; we have to believe in Jesus by faith alone.

This condition is a heavenly justice which God has to uphold. It is so important and cannot be overruled by God himself.

The confusion of bible, the split to dominations, disasters, wars etc. are all allowed by God for his purpose. These confusions are likely to intensified as the Christian population increases, so that man cannot figure out the existence of God by reasonings and logics.

It's all about salvation; the past, present and future.

"Christ saves all mankind" is a false theology because, if it's true; God would not "hide" himself, he would continuely showing his presence and to guide the well-being of the world, before all of us enter into heaven.

Looking to the past and the present world as a whole, it makes me to believe that what our lord says is very true; man cannot see God unless he sees Christ. And this prerequisite of receiving salvation is true. Obviously our salvation is far more important than showing God's glory.

Just my thought and observation.