The Restitution Of All Things

[Saint Steven]

Good arminian verses. Nothing universalist about them.

But does your view agree with them?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[renniks]

Maybe you are unclear about Universalism. The whole world. All. All. All.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Yep... universal atonement, not universal salvation. It has to be applied through faith, and scripture is clear that many refuse.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yep... universal atonement, not universal salvation. It has to be applied through faith, and scripture is clear that many refuse.

Not in the long-term.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

 

[renniks]

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Big difference between proclaiming and surrendering. The demons believe, but not in the sense that we do. Everyone will acknowledge him as Lord, but some through clenched teeth.

 

[FineLinen]

That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι — hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.

Under the earth (καταχτονιων — katachthoniōn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.

Robertson N.T. Word Pictures>>>>

Overview - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

 

[FineLinen]

 

[Saint Steven]

Big difference between proclaiming and surrendering. The demons believe, but not in the sense that we do. Everyone will acknowledge him as Lord, but some through clenched teeth.

That's the Damnationist explanation. But the Apostle Paul tells us that no one can say "Jesus is Lord", except by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[renniks]

That's the Damnationist explanation. But the Apostle Paul tells us that no one can say "Jesus is Lord", except by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Distortion by means of cherry picking verses. Yes, many will be damned. That isn't even debatable.

 

[FineLinen]

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Damnable, Damnation, And Damned - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary

 

[Saint Steven]

Distortion by means of cherry picking verses. Yes, many will be damned. That isn't even debatable.

Which of these scriptures is not true?
- If we declare "Jesus is Lord", will we be saved? (Rom.10:9)
- Can we say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit? (1Cor.12:3)
- Will every knee bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth
and every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord? (Phil.2:9-11)

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[renniks]

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Is this passage soteriological, though?
It's a hymn, meant to show that Jesus is Lord.
Paul quotes from Isaiah, but inserts Yeshua instead of Yahweh.
The use of Is 45 is not eschatological, but christological” because of the replacement of “by me” with “Jesus” to assert the idea that homage is to be paid to Jesus as Lord.
How could anyone come to the conclusion about all being saved given what else is said in Philippians?

Philippians 1:27 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit,[e] striving together as one for the faith of the gospel 28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.
Philippians 3:19
19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

 

[Saint Steven]

Is this passage soteriological, though?
It's a hymn, meant to show that Jesus is Lord.
Paul quotes from Isaiah, but inserts Yeshua instead of Yahweh.
The use of Is 45 is not eschatological, but christological” because of the replacement of “by me” with “Jesus” to assert the idea that homage is to be paid to Jesus as Lord.
How could anyone come to the conclusion about all being saved given what else is said in Philippians?

Philippians 1:27 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit,[e] striving together as one for the faith of the gospel 28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.
Philippians 3:19
19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

To whom, do you suppose this is referring when it says UNDER the earth?
I would say that is speaking of the realm of the dead.
As opposed to on earth and in heaven.
Those under the earth will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. Do you think it would
glorify God if that do it while they burn?
Will God receive their worship?

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[renniks]

To whom, do you suppose this is referring when it says UNDER the earth?
I would say that is speaking of the realm of the dead.
As opposed to on earth and in heaven.
Those under the earth will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. Do you think it would
glorify God if that do it while they burn?
Will God receive their worship?

Certainly, it would glorify God for them to finally acknowledge that he is Lord. The verses are not in the context of telling who is saved and who isn't, it's a hymn of praise meant to show that Jesus is one with God. Paul is forever borrowing from the Torah and re phrasing it around his new understanding of how Christ fulfilled what it says. This passage is about who Christ is, not about who gets saved.

 

[FineLinen]

Certainly, it would glorify God for them to finally acknowledge that he is Lord. The verses are not in the context of telling who is saved and who isn't, it's a hymn of praise meant to show that Jesus is one with God. Paul is forever borrowing from the Torah and re phrasing it around his new understanding of how Christ fulfilled what it says. This passage is about who Christ is, not about who gets saved.

 

[Saint Steven]

Certainly, it would glorify God for them to finally acknowledge that he is Lord. The verses are not in the context of telling who is saved and who isn't, it's a hymn of praise meant to show that Jesus is one with God. Paul is forever borrowing from the Torah and re phrasing it around his new understanding of how Christ fulfilled what it says. This passage is about who Christ is, not about who gets saved.

Just meaningless words to sing then? Doesn't really mean anything? Just a song? Worship noise? Not to be taken seriously?

 

[renniks]

Just meaningless words to sing then? Doesn't really mean anything? Just a song? Worship noise? Not to be taken seriously?

Good grief, you know full well that's not what I said. Of course it's to be taken seriously for what it actually says, that Christ is the ultimate Ruler and is to be exalted:
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

No where does it say anything about salvation.

 

[Saint Steven]

Good grief, you know full well that's not what I said. Of course it's to be taken seriously for what it actually says, that Christ is the ultimate Ruler and is to be exalted:
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

No where does it say anything about salvation.

That's why I added the related scriptures about salvation. But then you accused me of cherry picking.

If you declare Jesus Christ as Lord you will be saved. No one can say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. How can that NOT mean salvation? In heaven and on earth and under the earth. How can that NOT mean universal salvation? Hello? To the glory of God the Father. Hello?

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[renniks]

If you declare Jesus Christ as Lord you will be saved.

Wrong. If you declare with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. As for 1 Corinthians 12:3, again, this verse is not talking about salvation.
All it means in the context of what we are talking about is that God has to prompt people to praise him.

 

[Saint Steven]

Wrong. If you declare with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. As for 1 Corinthians 12:3, again, this verse is not talking about salvation.
All it means in the context of what we are talking about is that God has to prompt people to praise him.

I can play that game too, if you like.

Wrong.
God wants worship to be genuine. Wouldn't you?
Or would you prefer robots and the conquered to bow to your tyrannical will and iron fist?

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

 

[Saint Steven]

In the past I mused that everyone who went into the afterlife was surprised. Those who wanted what they deserved ended up in hell. Those who didn't want what they deserved ended up in heaven. And both were surprised at where they ended up.