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The Restitution Of All Things

FineLinen

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In time, the Real Twister will be exposed. Damnationists say, "We're right! You're wrong!" Annihilationists say it. Universalists say it too. Who is right? We play proof text ping-pong and nothing gets resolved. We tell each other, "The Word of God says such-and-such." However, one is using a KJV which mentions Hell, while another uses the YLT, which does not.

Folks, this will not be settled until we examine our Bibles verse by verse, consulting the center-column references, concordances, commentaries and dictionaries, both Biblical and secular. Most important, you MUST find a Bible which is accurate, one whose translation is not tainted by theology. Get back to FIRST principles: translate first, and only then the theology. Is that reasonable?

Dear Laz: It goes even farther than that. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Saviour of ephphatha and as such opens blind eyes and deaf ears. The Bible is a closed book until by the Spirit our poor blind eyes are opened to behold what is staring us in the face!

Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures
 
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renniks

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In time, the Real Twister will be exposed. Damnationists say, "We're right! You're wrong!" Annihilationists say it. Universalists say it too. Who is right? We play proof text ping-pong and nothing gets resolved. We tell each other, "The Word of God says such-and-such." However, one is using a KJV which mentions Hell, while another uses the YLT, which does not.

Folks, this will not be settled until we examine our Bibles verse by verse, consulting the center-column references, concordances, commentaries and dictionaries, both Biblical and secular. Most important, you MUST find a Bible which is accurate, one whose translation is not tainted by theology. Get back to FIRST principles: translate first, and only then the theology. Is that reasonable?
Don't you think God is able to preserve his word well enough for an average person to understand key concepts with out needing to consult multiple commentaries? Most common translations agree close enough on the big issues.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Don't you think God is able to preserve his word well enough for an average person to understand key concepts with out needing to consult multiple commentaries? Most common translations agree close enough on the big issues.

"Don't you think God is able to preserve his word well enough for an average person to understand key concepts with out needing to consult multiple commentaries?" Laz: This is a question usually asked by KJVO believers. My answer is that God seems not to have done so with English Bibles, the KJV versus the YLT being only one example.

"
Most common translations agree close enough on the big issues." Laz: This implies the inescapable assertion that Bibles without Hell are not Bibles. I have seen it so stated on this forum, but what we believe is not a matter of consensus.

I actually study my KJV most days, but reading it critically, I have changed my view of God and His dealings with men. An example is reading in the Revelation, and finding that there are seven Spirits of God. OK, fine, God's Word says it, so I believe it. Now I am a super-Trinitarian: Father + Son + Seven Spirits = 9 = 3+3+3. Most folks are happy with ONE Spirit, but the Word is more nuanced than that, and so it is with many things we think we understand...



 
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renniks

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"Don't you think God is able to preserve his word well enough for an average person to understand key concepts with out needing to consult multiple commentaries?" Laz: This is a question usually asked by KJVO believers. My answer is that God seems not to have done so with English Bibles, the KJV versus the YLT being only one example.

"
Most common translations agree close enough on the big issues." Laz: This implies the inescapable assertion that Bibles without Hell are not Bibles. I have seen it so stated on this forum, but what we believe is not a matter of consensus.

I actually study my KJV most days, but reading it critically, I have changed my view of God and His dealings with men. An example is reading in the Revelation, and finding that there are seven Spirits of God. OK, fine, God's Word says it, so I believe it. Now I am a super-Trinitarian: Father + Son + Seven Spirits = 9 = 3+3+3. Most folks are happy with ONE Spirit, but the Word is more nuanced than that, and so it is with many things we think we understand...


I'm not a KJV only person. I rarely ever use the KJV anymore.
 
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renniks

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"Don't you think God is able to preserve his word well enough for an average person to understand key concepts with out needing to consult multiple commentaries?" Laz: This is a question usually asked by KJVO believers. My answer is that God seems not to have done so with English Bibles, the KJV versus the YLT being only one example.

"
Most common translations agree close enough on the big issues." Laz: This implies the inescapable assertion that Bibles without Hell are not Bibles. I have seen it so stated on this forum, but what we believe is not a matter of consensus.

I actually study my KJV most days, but reading it critically, I have changed my view of God and His dealings with men. An example is reading in the Revelation, and finding that there are seven Spirits of God. OK, fine, God's Word says it, so I believe it. Now I am a super-Trinitarian: Father + Son + Seven Spirits = 9 = 3+3+3. Most folks are happy with ONE Spirit, but the Word is more nuanced than that, and so it is with many things we think we understand...


Isaiah 66:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
24 And they have gone forth, And looked on the carcases of the men Who are transgressing against me, For their worm dieth not, And their fire is not quenched, And they have been an abhorrence to all flesh!

Isaiah 66:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference here.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Isaiah 66:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
24 And they have gone forth, And looked on the carcases of the men Who are transgressing against me, For their worm dieth not, And their fire is not quenched, And they have been an abhorrence to all flesh!

Isaiah 66:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference here.

Nor am I, but the real differences are elsewhere. One version has Hell, the other does not.

I went back to Isaiah 66 to see the context, and it might be in the time of the new heavens and the new earth, though the Revelation states that there will no moon in those days. A prophecy never seems to make sense until it is fulfilled, is that not so? However, a doctrine will not be set up, or torn down, by ONE verse. I will say this much: there seem to be no wicked people in that future time, as the carcasses are an abhorrence to ALL flesh.
 
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renniks

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However, a doctrine will not be set up, or torn down, by ONE verse
Of course it won't. But there's a whole lot of verses you have to explain away. Here Isaiah seems to be describing the time when the wicked will be slain and put in the lake of fire, while the righteous will be worshipping God.
I think this is pretty significant, because it is one of those times when we are told all flesh are worshipping, but the wicked are not included in that "all".
 
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Lazarus Short

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Of course it won't. But there's a whole lot of verses you have to explain away. Here Isaiah seems to be describing the time when the wicked will be slain and put in the lake of fire, while the righteous will be worshipping God.
I think this is pretty significant, because it is one of those times when we are told all flesh are worshipping, but the wicked are not included in that "all".

The wicked may not be included in "the all" simply because they are not wicked anymore...I mean formerly wicked, as were we all.
 
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Dear brother from down under: The mighty hope our Father places within us burns like a fire in our bones. At every corner we find broken lives crying out for hope. Most know it not, but every broken life is heading for a brand new Day of unprecedented proportions, every last one!

That is indeed our hope and the rock of our faith. I pray for all those in darkness, in chains, in death, in suffering under the yoke of the prince of this world, for the author of life to use us as His messengers to bring in the Kingdom of light, freedom and the riches of grace abundant. Amen.

Being elected in Him is not by default, but encompasses the aspect of being chosen in Him far beyond our choices of yea or nay, and completely in His design from before the foundation of the world.

I pray that we might submit in love and truth, ever-turning away in contempt from the corpses of our former selves, and ever-conforming our minds to the mind of Christ and the divine will in the beauty, truth and goodness in the power of His might. Amen.

sons of God (like their Elder Brother) the Archegos & Prodromos, and for some the unique group of sons following the Lamb in the withersoever.

We praise you Father and rejoice in how you use the foolish things of this world to confound the wise, how the perfect simplicity of your word cuts through deceit and unrighteousness. Lord, here are we, killed with truth and raised with grace.

Thank you F.L. for another inspiring post, and some new learning.
 
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Rotflol. That's some creative twisting. Chubby Checker would be proud.
"It may be made a question, perhaps, to what period this refers. The Saviour Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, applied the language to the future punishment of the wicked, and no one, I think, can doubt that in Isaiah it includes that consummation of worldly affairs. The radical and essential idea in the prophet is, as it seems to me, that such would be the entire overthrow and punishment of the enemies of God; so condign their punishment; so deep their sufferings; so loathsome and hateful would they be when visited with the divine vengeance for their sins, that they would be an object of loathing and abhorrence. They would be swept off as unworthy to live with God, and they would be consigned to punishment - loathsome like that of ever gnawing worms on the carcasses of the slain, and interminable and dreadful like everconsuming and extinguishable fires."

Happy days. Punishment being 'condign' does not mean 'manifestly excessive'. The idea that it is 'so condign', is risible ie 'so condign as to be absolute'. Now that is humorous...for me, but less so for the untold millions whose lives on this earth were destroyed by disgraceful acts of merciless and wanton cruelty.

Do you not also repent each day in remembrance of your sins? Do you not shudder in disgust when you recall your former self, the damage you wrought before you knew Christ?
 
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renniks

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The wicked may not be included in "the all" simply because they are not wicked anymore...I mean formerly wicked, as were we all.
That's not what it says, though. You are adding to the text to come to that conclusion.
 
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renniks

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Do you not also repent each day in remembrance of your sins? Do you not shudder in disgust when you recall your former self, the damage you wrought before you knew Christ?
Of course we repent, but there are plenty who don't and never will.
 
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Of course we repent, but there are plenty who don't and never will.

Yes, but don't you see the metaphor - we look back in contempt at the carcasses of the dead...that's who we were.

The old monks used to practise constant remembrance of sin as a means to stay the course. I find it an effective tool (but not done to the extreme). Ever tried it when tempted by a desire to sin?
 
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Lazarus Short

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That's not what it says, though. You are adding to the text to come to that conclusion.

Well, that is just the way with troublesome passages - we begin to think of how it could come to pass, and sometimes God doesn't lay it all out for us. Hell is the same way...there is so little evidence, that other Scriptures must be brought to bear, such as the one about the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28. This king is so often ID'd as Lucifer/Satan, even though the passage clearly states, "...yet thou art a man..." (verse 2).

If a preacher expounds on a Biblical subject and you agree with him, it's a wonderful exposition, is it not? But then, if on a www forum, someone does the same and you do not agree with him, it's you are WAY off.

I have seen all these tactics many times...
 
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renniks

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Bible > Commentaries > Isaiah 66:24
Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh.
Jump to: BarnesBensonBICalvinCambridgeClarkeDarbyEllicottExpositor'sExp DctGaebeleinGSBGillGrayHaydockHastingsHomileticsJFBKDKellyKJTLangeMacLarenMHCMHCWParkerPoolePulpitSermonSCOTeedTTBWESTSK
EXPOSITORY (ENGLISH BIBLE)
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(24) And they shall go forth . . .—As at the close of Isaiah 48, 57, each ending a great section of the volume, so here, the vision of restoration and blessedness is balanced by that of the righteous condemnation of the wicked. The outward imagery is suggested, as in Joel 3:12; Zechariah 14:12, by that of the great battle of the Lord (Isaiah 66:15-16). Those who are slain in that battle are thought of as filling the valleys round about Jerusalem, especially the valley of Jehoshaphat (“Jehovah judges “), devoured by worms, or given to the flames. Taken strictly, therefore, the words do not speak of the punishment of the souls of men after death, but of the defeat and destruction upon earth of the enemies of Jehovah. The words that tell us that “the worm shall not die” and that “the fire shall not be quenched” point, however, to something more than this, to be read between the lines. And so those words became the starting-point of the thoughts of later Judaism as to Gehenna (Ecclesiasticus 8:17; Judith 16:17, and the Targum on this passage), of the words in which our Lord Himself gave utterance to what, at least, seemed to express those thoughts (Mark 9:44-48), of the dominant eschatology of Christendom. Even so taken, however, with this wider range, it is still a question whether the words are to be taken literally or figuratively (though this, perhaps, is hardly a question), whether the bodies, which represent souls, are thought of as not destroyed, but only tormented, or as consumed to nothing, by the fire and by the worm, whether those two agents represent sufferings of sense or spirit. The one aspect of the future life which they tend to exclude is that which presents the idea of a suffering that may be purifying. That idea is not without apparent support in other passages of Scripture (e.g., Romans 5:17-21; Romans 11:32; 1Peter 3:19; 1Peter 4:6); but we cannot say that it entered into the prophet’s thoughts here. What he emphasises is the eternal antagonism between the righteousness of God and man’s unrighteousness, and this involves the punishment of the latter as long as it exists.
Yes, but don't you see the metaphor - we look back in contempt at the carcasses of the dead...that's who we were.

The old monks used to practise constant remembrance of sin as a means to stay the course. I find it an effective tool (but not done to the extreme). Ever tried it when tempted by a desire to sin?

Yes, but don't you see the metaphor - we look back in contempt at the carcasses of the dead...that's who we were.
No, I see the righteous looking back at the copses of the rebellious, because that is literally what it says.
 
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renniks

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a preacher expounds on a Biblical subject and you agree with him, it's a wonderful exposition, is it not? But then, if on a www forum, someone does the same and you do not agree with him, it's you are WAY off.

I have seen all these tactics many times...
I'm not concerned with agreeing with anyone but the Word. I have disagreed with pastors over meanings too. It's not always wise to bring it up after church, though, lol, but this is a forum for discussion and debate.
 
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No, I see the righteous looking back at the copses of the rebellious, because that is literally what it says.

I agree. The rebellious have been transformed into the righteous. That is what Revelation 20-22 reveals. The nations get cleansed and healed. Death the last enemy is out, life and the kingdom are in.

[Edit the rebellious are 'made anew']
 
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renniks

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I agree. The rebellious have been transformed into the righteous. That is what Revelation 20-22 reveals. The nations get cleansed and healed. Death the last enemy is out, life and the kingdom are in.
"twisting the night away..." Obviously that's not what I said. there is no indication that the rebellious have become the righteous.
 
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"twisting the night away..." Obviously that's not what I said. there is no indication that the rebellious have become the righteous.

Surely you jest.
  • Rev 20:9 nations devoured by fire
  • Rev 20:15 thrown into lake of fire
  • Rev 21:6 God making everything new
  • Rev 21:24-26 nations pacified and repentant
  • Rev 22:2 nations come for healing
So it's not hard to see what happens. Where do you fit in the melty corpses?
 
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Lazarus Short

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Bible > Commentaries > Isaiah 66:24
Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh.
Jump to: BarnesBensonBICalvinCambridgeClarkeDarbyEllicottExpositor'sExp DctGaebeleinGSBGillGrayHaydockHastingsHomileticsJFBKDKellyKJTLangeMacLarenMHCMHCWParkerPoolePulpitSermonSCOTeedTTBWESTSK
EXPOSITORY (ENGLISH BIBLE)
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(24) And they shall go forth . . .—As at the close of Isaiah 48, 57, each ending a great section of the volume, so here, the vision of restoration and blessedness is balanced by that of the righteous condemnation of the wicked. The outward imagery is suggested, as in Joel 3:12; Zechariah 14:12, by that of the great battle of the Lord (Isaiah 66:15-16). Those who are slain in that battle are thought of as filling the valleys round about Jerusalem, especially the valley of Jehoshaphat (“Jehovah judges “), devoured by worms, or given to the flames. Taken strictly, therefore, the words do not speak of the punishment of the souls of men after death, but of the defeat and destruction upon earth of the enemies of Jehovah. The words that tell us that “the worm shall not die” and that “the fire shall not be quenched” point, however, to something more than this, to be read between the lines. And so those words became the starting-point of the thoughts of later Judaism as to Gehenna (Ecclesiasticus 8:17; Judith 16:17, and the Targum on this passage), of the words in which our Lord Himself gave utterance to what, at least, seemed to express those thoughts (Mark 9:44-48), of the dominant eschatology of Christendom. Even so taken, however, with this wider range, it is still a question whether the words are to be taken literally or figuratively (though this, perhaps, is hardly a question), whether the bodies, which represent souls, are thought of as not destroyed, but only tormented, or as consumed to nothing, by the fire and by the worm, whether those two agents represent sufferings of sense or spirit. The one aspect of the future life which they tend to exclude is that which presents the idea of a suffering that may be purifying. That idea is not without apparent support in other passages of Scripture (e.g., Romans 5:17-21; Romans 11:32; 1Peter 3:19; 1Peter 4:6); but we cannot say that it entered into the prophet’s thoughts here. What he emphasises is the eternal antagonism between the righteousness of God and man’s unrighteousness, and this involves the punishment of the latter as long as it exists.



No, I see the righteous looking back at the copses of the rebellious, because that is literally what it says.

Tell me, in your opinion, is the fellow you quoted adding to the Scriptures he comments on, or not?
 
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