The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Hillsage said:

Please don't 'over react' to what I said now. I don't think you're a "terrible person" at all. I have just read your posts all along realizing that we aren't going to be twin brother and sister in the Lord theologically. I have no problem with that. I never know what to expect from 'others' when they find out we aren't marching in step 'doctrine for doctrine'. Too many times, that's when the 'religious spirited' rattlesnake comes out.


I do believe in the trinity, just not like orthodoxy teaches. Zender has some good stuff IMO, and some wrong stuff IMO. JUST LIKE ME I suspect. And if I knew what I believe that IS wrong, I'd change it. But I don't know, just like everyone else here. I always say; It is Good to have the opinion that you are right, but it is BAD to have the opinion everyone else is WRONG!

Now, as for your quote of 1 John 5:7. Do you know that particular verse was totally added by the KJV authors? It is not in any other translation for that reason. I learned 'that fact' one time when I was arguing for the trinity with a group that are considered a 'Christian cult' by orthodoxy for not believing in the trinity at all. I had to back off and research it to find out that what they said about 'that verse' was true.


Martin used to be a whole lot more respected in the UR community years ago. I have several books and a CD which are very good. But then he 'went south', dumped his wife and after watching your posted video of him, I'd also have to say he's gotten more 'UNsanctified', and acting like that's OK. I don't.


Getting saved in the summer of '72', I cut my teeth on a belief in 'the rapture' along with everyone I knew. The first religious book I read after buying a bible was "The Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey. It is now in it's 3rd or 4th revision (????) and still preaching it strong. Those revisions were because his 'prophetic' predictions have come and gone, so now we have change the teaching and keep preaching the lie. I know just say; "False teacher". For an alternative view, I'll suggest the following and you can read as little or as much as you want.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Looking/Looking1.htm#1

REad what you just said; Who is 'losing' their soul? Is it Jesus, or is it the person?

You're quoting it wrong.

MAT 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

So, is the "him" God, the Father, or is it the Son, or is it the Holy Spirit....or possibly even the adversary???? I don't even have an answer, but neither do I have the 'assumption' that it is 'God/ Jesus', as you appear to have.


Again, don't over react to my one sentence concern over opening my Pandora's theological box, based upon having heard enough of your 'box' POV in prior posts.

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needhugs said:

Don't tell me not to over react!! i'm insane, i'm SUPPOSED to over react lol

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it's ok, the only doctrine i get irritated about not walking 'step by step' in is 'eternal torture'... coz i find people who believe in that, prideful, often hateful, and they shun me, i don't shun them... so i'm a little leery of them...

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yes, Zender has some great stuff, but it's like he is going out of his way to be different from the church, and leaving himself open to deception... i was listening to him say 'there is nothing special about Jesus' blood' and i thought 'ok, that's enuff Zender now'... plus he is starting to rock back and forth when he talks, talking really fast, saying 'who better to speak for Christ than me?'... and i think he needs a bit of help... i know the enemy tries to discredit UR peeps, and he often does that by making them insane.

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so tell me about your belief in the trinity? dare i ask? lol as far as i'm concerned, God is God, Jesus is God... those two are a given for me... i would be TOTALLY scared to commit the unpardonable sin by saying the Holy Spirit isn't God... if Jesus and God weren't one, then why did Jesus have to acsend to heaven before the Holy Spirit could be given to every body else?

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https://www.biblestudytools.com/1-john/5-7-compare.html

i see that the verse in question is very messed with in the Bible... i would have to look into who wanted to CUT IT OUT, coz some of those verses just seem 'cut off' and weird... rather than who wanted to add it in, coz it's in a bunch of versions.

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so you didn't answer, what about the verses that the rapture is based on? are we supposed to just ignore them? not knowing what they mean?

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and what do you mean? JESUS lost His soul from gaining the whole world? i don't think i would want to read the Bible withTHAT much of an open mind lol

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and why would Jesus say 'fear him that can destroy the body and soul in hell' if it was the devil, when He always says 'fear not' about the devil??

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you skipped over my question that that verse proves a soul that goes on after death...

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Hillsage said:

No, you're supposed to be peculiar...not crazy. Come on girl, you don't want to 'possess what you've confessed'.

1PE 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


And I have ministered side by side with those still bound by that theology who were very caring and loving. My heart continues to pray that 'the veil be removed'.


I remember his 'blood' statement. It shocked me a little at first. But then I think I grasped where he was coming from and agreed. Maybe I misunderstood, but I gathere that he was saying it wasn't 'magic blood'. It was simply blood like any "brethren" has flowing in their earthly body.

HEB 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

My only caveat above in this verse is that it is speaking about "his brethren" and not every unsaved person in the world. If He came and did anything 'because He was God' then he can not be a representative for me to follow in His footsteps, because I'm not God. But if he did what He did as a pattern 'son' for all of us to follow, then I'm signed up for that. I believe perfection and sinlessness is 'possible' for me, even though I've never attained it. His exhortation still remains that;
Matthew 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


That is 'off topic' for the thread. But tell me this; If Jesus is 'fully man' and 'fully God' then what do you believe he gave up because we'd never be able to comprehend such a thing?

PHI 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.


Wow, a 'bit' of egg on my face. Back when I studied this I don't think a lot of the versions 'you found and like' were even in print. But a quick perusal shows the ones that are, are based upon revisions of the 1611 authorized version, or as I did say the King James Bible, or they crept in to the Catholic versions via 'margin notes'. My study bible says the words you really like "were never found in a Greek manuscript prior to the 16th century. They were first seen in the margin of some Latin copies. And that is how they crept into the text" today.


I never 'ignore' just correctly apply them. Read Eby on every one of them.


I never said he lost his soul. I said his soul died to self daily, as He worked out His salvation with fear and trembling' even as we are instructed to do What is your definition of SOUL anyway? Jesus wasn't born the perfect sacrifice, he attained to it. IOW he never 'LOST' his soul....He gained it.

That is the one verse which made me say....Heck I can't even find that part of my post it was so long. I'm done.


I skipped over because I don't want to spend as much time as I already have here. I have a business life and a Christian LIFE of WALK and not just TALK which is also important. I have a wife and a 22 year old grand daughter who lives with us. I'm here to have fun, not spend all day typing. Here I'm just a talking head. Which is something I do enjoy, but certainly not as much as so many others. So please limit your future posts to me, to bite size on a subject. I'd certainly appreciate it. I want to quit so bad now I'm not doing a final proof. I hope I don't regret that.

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Ron Gurley said:

PER the Bible:

There are TWO spiritual realms which are CREATED and SEPARATED by God:

1. Believers who have ACCEPTED God's calling / drawing unto salvation (heavenly realms)

Matthew 6:10
‘Your (heavenly) kingdom (of God) come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

2.UNBelievers who have REJECTED God's calling / drawing unto salvation ("LAKE OF FIRE").

Revelation 20:15...SAVED BELIEVER'S
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the (Lamb's) "book of life", he was thrown into the "lake of fire".

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ClementofA said:

The gates into the heavenly city, New Jerusalem will never be shut:

and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. ~~ Rev. 21:25

Why are the gates never going to be shut? The wicked are outside those gates:

Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Are those gates open forever so saints can go out of the city into the lake of fire with the wicked? Or for the wicked who have been purified in the fire to enter into the heavenly city? Or both? Maybe the saints will go on evangelical missions to the LOF.

Even Led Zeppelin knows of what we speak, Ron:

“Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There’s still time to change the road you’re on
And it makes me wonder”

“…The [P]iper’s calling you to join him”

“…The tune will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all” [in all]

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FineLinen said:

Sharing brings great satisfaction. We are sorry you are not feeling well, get ship shape soon. We will resume at that time.

The "Destruction" of the Wicked

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/wicked2.htm

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Hillsage said:

First off, let me say this. I truly appreciate 'the spirit' of inquisitiveness with which you have come here. You may ultimately find you are in total opposition, as we reveal that which our hearts have come to see. But that is truly OK with me because I don't demand that a 'brother' be a theological 'twin brother' in order to be in God's family. Having said that, I don't know if 'you are' any more than you know if 'I am'...yet. But it's a start.

Our admonition from scripture is to 'sharpen one another as iron sharpens iron'. I'm probably the only one here who spent two years in a packing plant making my livelihood with a knife. So I have a very personalized and applicable understanding of proverb 27:17. During those years of working I came to understand this ‘iron will only sharpen iron’ when 'the two' come together in an appropriate or correct angle/attitude. It only takes the poor angle/attitude of one to make that contact as sword dulling as a clanging cymbal..

If you're looking for a black and white definition for Universalism you may be disappointed. I'm not, because it seems like I so often hear someone share something in their 'definition...with a twist', that I'm not seeing...or agreeing with.

Actually, I also don't even completely like the unbiblical word Universalism. Other than to say this, concerning us...as well as ALL Christianity; 'Everyone is an avowed universalist when it comes to ADAM. In Adam ALL die.'

In a nutshell, I like Ultimate Reconciliation or UR, as my favored term for the plan of God. In my belief, Jesus died for the forgiveness of the sins of ALL. And it is in Him that God has appropriated the plan whereby we are ALL saved. And God's plan still has..'in the ages to come', a time frame, wherein He will fulfill His plan. One of my big disagreements with 'church tradition' is this belief; 'You're only chance to make 'the decision', is in this vapor of a moment in which you live or die.' I don't limit God in regard to time.

1JO 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

For me it all simply boils down to this; if 'eternal hell' or 'eternal death' or 'eternal separation from God', is the price for sin, then why isn’t Jesus sitting in 'eternal hell', 'eternal death', eternal separation from God', paying that eternal price, for you and me? Him being sinless never ‘changed the price for sin’. And that 'price' was either 'eternal hell' or it was a 'physical death'. His spirit never died, and his soul died to self daily, as He worked out His salvation with fear and trembling' even as we are instructed to do. His ultimate soul dying event came in the Garden when His soul was sorrowful even unto death...with 'the last temptation'. The temptation of a suffering death on the cross. It was the Father's plan "to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings."

But being sinless and perfect never changed God's price for sin, it simply ‘qualified’ sinless Jesus to vicariously pay 'the price' for us, that we might live again beyond the grave. And He did so by dying an UNJUSTIFIED physical death with a 'very short' time separated from the Father, in our place. And He did so, that we might be JUSTIFIED by His physical death. But the price was never 'eternal separation from God’ and it was never 'burning in Hell eternally' either. If that was 'the price' of sin, then that's where Jesus should eternally be, making payment. Jesus being perfect, or being sinless, or even being GOD, did not change the price for sin. The big difference between our Jesus and the ETers is, our Jesus is 'the savior of all' and your Jesus is the 'savior of a pitiful few'. Our Jesus came that we might have life 'here and now' as well as in the 'hereafter'. You guys are suffering through the now in the hope that a pitiful few of God's beloved creation ever make it to heaven in the hereafter. Which really makes your 'God view' the loser of most of His beloved creation. Not a very good plan of salvation for an omniscient God knowing the end from the beginning. A God who is creator of ALL but loser of most. Our divine plan 'view', has God dying for ALL and ultimately winning ALL. Your divine plan has God loosing most and then torturing them, for all eternity. And then 'your God view' also puts US on a mandate GOD HIMSELF isn't going to live up to...and that mandate is 'we must always forgive' but He 'eternally never will'. I like our God view much better philosophically as well as scripturally.

Maybe too much to start with. I really do hate a post that's longer than what fits on a screen. Yep I just went and checked. Others have weighed in and you will have your hands full, so I'll just post and then step back.

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