The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Saint Steven · Jul 7, 2019

Seeing God in creation doesn't prevent me from picking blackberries.
He created blackberries for me to enjoy. Why would I be indifferent?

John 10:10
... I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Hillsage · Jul 7, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
Just as with Salvation, the defeat of Death is a done deal, an ongoing process and a goal.

And the only 'one' who just may have accomplished this 'ongoing process and its goal', is the apostle John. Even the disciples thought John would live immortal until Jesus returned at the end of the age.

JOH 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!" 23 The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die;...

But then, the brethren understood many things which most today, do not. The historical records do not show the death of John, only speculation. The historical records do show, that John was thrown into boiling oil and never died though.

'According to Tertullian (in The Prescription of Heretics) John was banished (presumably to Patmos) after being plunged into boiling oil in Rome and suffering nothing from it. It is said that all in the audience of Colosseum were converted to Christianity upon witnessing this miracle.'
John the Apostle - Wikipedia

Obviously 'ALL in the Colosseum' who were in the colosseum didn't include the Caesar who sentenced him to boil, and then to Patmos, when he didn't. He had to be as hard to change as an Eternal Heller today.

Anybody here ever hear the saying; "The wandering Jew." It wasn't plural, and it wasn't a Jew who taunted Jesus on his way to the crucifixion. Which is also another religious idea as historically wrong as eternal hell. That's also a tradition as dumb as Jesus the lamb enjoying the view as people are "tortured IN His presence"....as opposed to the truth, 'tortured BY his holy presence' a presence which humbles them as to their unworthiness and that's why they WILL bow the knee and proclaim Him as Lord, no matter how hard they are, or how long it will take. Praise be the name of "the savior of ALL. And especially (Gr. to the greatest degree) those that believe."

Lazarus Short · Jul 7, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That idea usually tracks with a belief in a death (afterlife) of unconscious non-existence. Is that your position?

Saint Steven said:
But if Universalism is true, then Damnationism and Annihilationism are not true.
Universalism allows for neither. Unless I am missing something here. (very likely)

You could certainly say that those tossed into the Lake of Fire are damned for a time, and the Second Death is certainly annihilation for a time...but God boasts to us that Death will be defeated and swallowed up in victory. So tell me what you are missing...?

Saint Steven · Jul 7, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
You could certainly say that those tossed into the Lake of Fire are damned for a time, and the Second Death is certainly annihilation for a time...but God boasts to us that Death will be defeated and swallowed up in victory. So tell me what you are missing...?

Damned is a judgment. Annihilation is complete. By definition, both of those ideas are incompatible with Universalism as far as I can tell. What is temporary annihilation, or temporary damnation? They are both defined as complete.

damned
ADJECTIVE
(in Christian belief) condemned by God to suffer eternal punishment in hell.

an·ni·hi·late
VERB
destroy utterly; obliterate.

Lazarus Short · Jul 7, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Damned is a judgment. Annihilation is complete. By definition, both of those ideas are incompatible with Universalism as far as I can tell. What is temporary annihilation, or temporary damnation? They are both defined as complete.

damned
ADJECTIVE
(in Christian belief) condemned by God to suffer eternal punishment in hell.

an·ni·hi·late
VERB
destroy utterly; obliterate.

Sadly, I have seen in the KJV, "judgment" translated as "condemnation," and "condemnation" translated as "damnation." Damnation for-ever and annihilation for-ever cannot, can-not ever produce these two results:

the defeat of Death

God becoming All in all.

These are just two items in my list of why UR is more coherent than damnation or annihilation forever.

Wrangler · Jul 7, 2019

Saint Steven said:
But if Universalism is true, then Damnationism and Annihilationism are not true.
Universalism allows for neither. Unless I am missing something here. (very likely)

Damnationism and Annihilationism are like reading only the beginning or middle of a story yet drawing a conclusion. Japan bombing Pearl Harbor and beating the US at every turn. Hitler, bombing London 32 straight days. These are true events but one would be wrong to extrapolate from that to conclusion.

Wrangler · Jul 7, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Damned is a judgment. Annihilation is complete. By definition, both of those ideas are incompatible with Universalism as far as I can tell.

I see. You are associating annihilation with complete, inappropriately IMO. My doctor annihilated the cancer in me ≠ My doctor annihilated me completely. What is annihilated completely is sin not the soul in universalism.

Saint Steven · Jul 7, 2019

Wrangler said:
I see. You are associating annihilation with complete, inappropriately IMO. My doctor annihilated the cancer in me ≠ My doctor annihilated me completely. What is annihilated completely is sin not the soul in universalism.

I'm not promoting Annihilationism. But I'm guessing if you asked someone who was an Annihilationist, they would say the destruction is complete. Therefore Annihilationism and Damnationism are not compatible with Universalism. IMHO

2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Deuteronomy 29:20
The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven.

Saint Steven · Jul 7, 2019

Wrangler said:
Damnationism and Annihilationism are like reading only the beginning or middle of a story yet drawing a conclusion. Japan bombing Pearl Harbor and beating the US at every turn. Hitler, bombing London 32 straight days. These are true events but one would be wrong to extrapolate from that to conclusion.

But Damnationism and Annihilationism have a finality built into their definitions.

Saint Steven · Jul 7, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
Sadly, I have seen in the KJV, "judgment" translated as "condemnation," and "condemnation" translated as "damnation." Damnation for-ever and annihilation for-ever cannot, can-not ever produce these two results:

the defeat of Death

God becoming All in all.

These are just two items in my list of why UR is more coherent than damnation or annihilation forever.

No offense, but that seems like a weak argument.
It depends on how those terms are defined by Damnationists and Annihilationists.

The Damnationist might claim it only applies to the redeemed. And Annihilationists might claim that it only applies after the condemned are completely destroyed.

Wrangler · Jul 7, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I'm not promoting Annihilationism. But I'm guessing if you asked someone who was an Annihilationist, they would say the destruction is complete. Therefore Annihilationism and Damnationism are not compatible with Universalism.

Well, obviously they are not compatible.

My post was trying to present how Annihilationism and Damnationism could be reconciled with Universalism via a parallel to the beginning, middle and end of a story. In my view, Annihilation is the beginning. Damnation is the middle. Universalism is the end.

I submit Annihilationism and Damnationism misidentify what the end is.

Saint Steven · Jul 7, 2019

Wrangler said:
I submit Annihilationism and Damnationism misidentify what the end is.

From the view that God can do anything, that is certainly a possibility.

However, it would need to include, and or resolve, the damned/annihilated being burned to ashes and having their names blotted out. If there is a road back from that situation, then yes, it is possible. And why would the Bible make such declarations if they will be undone? And why no specific statements about how/why/when that will happen?

2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Deuteronomy 29:20
The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven.

FineLinen · Jul 7, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
Sadly, I have seen in the KJV, "judgment" translated as "condemnation," and "condemnation" translated as "damnation." Damnation for-ever and annihilation for-ever cannot, can-not ever produce these two results:

the defeat of Death

God becoming All in all.

These are just two items in my list of why UR is more coherent than damnation or annihilation forever.

Dear Laz.: the word "damnation" does not exist in koine. There is indeed condemnation and judgment. Why then does the One who makes all new proceed in this aspect of Reconciliation?

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction." Romans 9:22

Fitted/ Prepared=katartivzw

Katartivzw=

To render or to fit.

To make sound or complete.

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair what has been broken or rent.

To put in order.

To arrange. To adjust.

To fit or frame for one’s self.

To strengthen, to perfect, to complete.

To make one what he aught to be.

Dr. Marvin Vincent

Fitted/prepared= kathrtismena=

Literally: adjusted or mended.

“ei de qelwn o qeoV endeixasqai thn orghn kai gnwrisai to dunaton autou hnegken en pollh makroqumia skeuh orghV kathrtismena eiV apwleian”

Romans 9:22 - What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?.

FineLinen · Jul 7, 2019

Originally Posted by wellsmaine

I asked the Lord (again and again and again in the past) for insight into how his death saves us. He finally directed my thoughts to the times I helped my grandmother with her food preservation; specifically, the freezing of string beans. We would pick them and then snap them into shorter pieces and then blanch them before bagging them for the freezer. I asked her why the blanching for a few moments in boiling water. She told me if beans are not blanched, even if frozen they would spoil (due to enzymatic action that is stopped by blanching).

So, to keep it short, the beans are not altered but the enzymatic action is stopped. For universal salvation to happen, as with beans not going to ruin, humanity needed (and needs) a blanching. If we are like spiritual beans, the bean remains a bean but the change wrought by God doesn’t depend on the bean. And a blanched bean tastes better, too!

Blanch green beans in a large stock pot of well salted boiling water until bright green in color and tender crisp, roughly 2 minutes. Drain and shock in a bowl of ice water to stop from cooking. Heat a large heavy skillet over medium heat. Add the oil and the butter.

And to poke at Calvin, my grandmother did not will to save one string bean and not another with her blanching – and not save them all by blanching the entire pile. Funny how my grandmother was wiser than Calvin’s limited atonement God. LOL I’m sure, though, The Salvation entails the use by God of all the functions of creation (like neutralizing green bean enzymes) including quantum physics and other functions we may never be aware of, or ever understand in this life.

Saint Steven · Jul 7, 2019

FineLinen said:
"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction." Romans 9:22

That's quite interesting in context. (works against you)

Two kinds of individuals mentioned.
1) objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction
2) objects of his mercy—prepared in advance for glory

Romans 9:22-23
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

Hillsage · Jul 7, 2019

Saint Steven said:
From the view that God can do anything, that is certainly a possibility.

However, it would need to include, and or resolve, the damned/annihilated being burned to ashes and having their names blotted out. If there is a road back from that situation, then yes, it is possible. And why would the Bible make such declarations if they will be undone? And why no specific statements about how/why/when that will happen?

2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Deuteronomy 29:20
The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven.

If the "ungodly" cities Sodom and Gomorrha were "condemned" to "burning them to ashes", then what are you missing in their "judgment" to come?

MAT 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Tell me Steve "why would the Bible make such declaration if they will be undone?", in the judgment or judgments that are yet to take place?

Hillsage · Jul 7, 2019

Saint Steven said:
No offense, but that seems like a weak argument.
It depends on how those terms are defined by Damnationists and Annihilationists.

Sometimes things are defined by the lying pen of scribes which lead to deception. Would you think that "damnable" would fit a "Damnationists definition in the verse below, and "destruction" would fit an Annihilationists definition?

KJV 2PE 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

If you would think that, then you would miss what the original Greek simply points out in the above verse. That 'point' being, they are both the very same Greek word. Why would scribes confuse us with this?

0684 apoleia: ruin or loss (phys., spiritual or eternal)

Of course the "eternal" part of the above orthodox definition also came centuries after the original definition too. That's just the way the religious wheel turns.

KJV 2PE 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable/apoleia heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction/apoleia.

Granted, modern scribes have cleared up 'this particular' old KJV deception. But some theologies, which were formed under the KJV, have never been 'undone' because they had so taken over orthodox thinking.

Lazarus Short · Jul 7, 2019

Saint Steven said:
No offense, but that seems like a weak argument.
It depends on how those terms are defined by Damnationists and Annihilationists.

The Damnationist might claim it only applies to the redeemed. And Annihilationists might claim that it only applies after the condemned are completely destroyed.

I know they qualify it, but let me ask you, if people are dead, burned to ashes, forgotten by men and their names are blotted out before God, they are still dead, aren't they? In that case, Death cannot be defeated...so how is that a weak argument? I'm just taking the concept to its logical conclusion.

FineLinen · Jul 8, 2019

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction." Romans 9:22

Fitted/ Prepared=katartivzw

Katartivzw=

To render or to fit.

To make sound or complete.

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair what has been broken or rent.

To put in order.

To arrange. To adjust.

To fit or frame for one’s self.

To strengthen, to perfect, to complete.

To make one what he aught to be.

Dr. Marvin Vincent

Fitted/prepared= kathrtismena=

Literally: adjusted or mended.

“ei de qelwn o qeoV endeixasqai thn orghn kai gnwrisai to dunaton autou hnegken en pollh makroqumia skeuh orghV kathrtismena eiV apwleian”

Romans 9:22 - What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?.

It must be noted that the destruction of Abba is NOT mindless extermination but>>>

1. The means by which our Father arranges and adjusts.

2. His destruction leads to repair and amendment.

3. The final outcome= making one what he aught to be.

Welcome to Katartivzw

FineLinen · Jul 8, 2019

Please note: With the koine regarding being fitted and framed for the Lord, we need to look at the Hebrew.

The punishment of the Father of all fathers is not merely correction: it is correction that improves, changes, transforms for the better.

Our God punishes with an objective in view, not as an end in itself!

There are over 20 distinct words for destruction in the Hebrew.

There are dual aspects to our Father’s Realm as shown in the following…

Tamiym/ 'ymt means to be consumed, destroyed, exhausted and spent, but also to be finished and made sound.

Kalal has the same meaning, linking destruction, being spent, exhausted, as well as to be finished and made sound.

Tamam, the root word of Tamiym means to be finished, complete, summed up, made whole: linked with to be consumed, exhausted, spent and destroyed.

Shalam/ ~IX, another expression of destruction, has the scope of being finished and ended, made good or whole, & being made sound, coupled with to be restored.

Shebar, rooted in Shabar, means breakout, and being brought to birth; and underlying new birth and breakout? To be crushed and broken. Again there is dual meaning in our Lord’s words of destruction and re-creation.

Chalowph

The destructive Hebrew word Chalowph is rooted in being altered, renewed, changed, and to sprout again. It should also be noted that this is not just change, but change for the better.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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