The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Saint Steven]

And you keep proving 'you don't eat elephants very good. So I'm stopping. And don't answer with a million questions because you don't get it. I'm not interested, nor do I have the time. Kid's family still here for the fourth, and have been ever since last Sunday. Daughter's family from Sunday til yesterday and Son's family from Thursday til today.

Thanks for your time and effort. I appreciate the complete explanation.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I think you know the answer. There are verses in Scripture that support the idea that death has been defeated, in part if not whole.

Just as with Salvation, the defeat of Death is a done deal, an ongoing process and a goal.

 

[FineLinen]

Just as with Salvation, the defeat of Death is a done deal, an ongoing process and a goal.

Dear Laz: I am finding all aspects of the God of Glory are in the present continuous dimensions. The word regarding the filling of the Spirit is "be being".

These are they that follow the Lamb in the withersoever steps in which He leads. There are dimensions within dimensions within dimensions!

 

[Hillsage]

Just as with Salvation, the defeat of Death is a done deal, an ongoing process and a goal.

And the only 'one' who just may have accomplished this 'ongoing process and its goal', is the apostle John. Even the disciples thought John would live immortal until Jesus returned at the end of the age.

JOH 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!" 23 The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die;...

But then, the brethren understood many things which most today, do not. The historical records do not show the death of John, only speculation. The historical records do show, that John was thrown into boiling oil and never died though.

'According to Tertullian (in The Prescription of Heretics) John was banished (presumably to Patmos) after being plunged into boiling oil in Rome and suffering nothing from it. It is said that all in the audience of Colosseum were converted to Christianity upon witnessing this miracle.'
John the Apostle - Wikipedia

Obviously 'ALL in the Colosseum' who were in the /coliseum didn't include the Caesar who sentenced him to boil, and then to Patmos, when he didn't. He had to be as hard to change as an Eternal Heller today.

Anybody here ever hear the saying; "The wandering Jew." It wasn't plural, and it wasn't a Jew who taunted Jesus on his way to the crucifixion. Which is also another religious idea as historically dumb as eternal hell. That's just a tradition as dumb as Jesus the lamb enjoying the view as people are tortured IN His presence....as opposed to the truth 'tortured BY his holy presence' a presence which humbles them as to their unworthiness and that's why they WILL bow the knee and proclaim Him as Lord, no matter how hard they are, or how long it will take. Praise be the name of the savior of ALL. And especially (to the greatest degree) those that believe.

 

[Saint Steven]

There is always more to it than "that." There is the word and concept of Hell, which I discovered to have come in from the pagan religions of northern Europe, but I don't discount the pagan religions surrounding the early Israelites or the early Christians...before they had contact with the "barbarian" tribes of northern Europe. As I always like to say, things get very complex when you get past the History 101 level of things.

You probably have a point about the word "hell". But the concept is certainly biblical.
Why would the Roman church adopt a word from the "barbarian tribes of northern Europe"? Weren't they enemies?

 

[Saint Steven]

An important concept which came into early Christianity by way of neo-Platonic churchmen, was the concept and doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul. To the best of my own studies, it came in from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. Without that concept, the idea of "souls" suffering for ever in torment would have been much more difficult to establish. However, even in the KJV, we see in First Corinthians 3:15, that it is a man's WORKS that are burned up, while the man is saved.

How can you believe in Universalism and not believe in the immortality of the soul? If all of creation is restored, what can really die?

 

[Saint Steven]

Another thing that needed to be put into place was the metaphysical, afterlife Hell and ruled over by the Devil/Satan. However, do you see what that does? It elevates him to God's rival/equal...and you end up with Heaven, ruled by God and Hell, ruled by Satan. Further, it leads to the idea that the Earth and humanity are a contested prey, fought over by the two sides. However, my study of the Bible informs me that the Cosmos is a hierarchy, with God at the top, and Satan as just a minor functionary in God's administration (see the first two chapter of Job on this).

I think this is more of a popular notion than the stance of any serious Bible student. Most know that hell was created for the devil and his angels. But I suppose you would like to call it something else. Like what?

Matthew 25:41 NIV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 Young's Literal Translation
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

 

[Saint Steven]

In the end, the three theories (Damnationism, Annihilationism, Universal Reconciliation) will be approved or dismissed by the Bible student according to the weight that student gives on various Scriptures and/or the Scriptures that student forgets, ignores or fails to comprehend. I also believe those understandings, forgettings, ignorings and fails are all part of God's Plan, and it is glorious in my view.

It seems to me that all three views have partial support in scriptures. (Damnationism, Annihilationism, Universal Reconciliation) This is maddening to the truth-seeker.

 

[Lazarus Short]

You probably have a point about the word "hell". But the concept is certainly biblical.
Why would the Roman church adopt a word from the "barbarian tribes of northern Europe"? Weren't they enemies?

Words change usage over time, but some remain recognizable as far back as we care to see. Hell, hel, helja, helle, and other forms may be related to the Greek "hades." The Latin church used the term "infernum," which was comparable to hades, and meant simply "under the ground," - nothing like today's word "inferno." The Hell of Dante came later.

 

[Lazarus Short]

How can you believe in Universalism and not believe in the immortality of the soul? If all of creation is restored, what can really die?

I believe in the Resurrection, where Spirit is applied back to a re-created body to produce a soul, which is the living, breathing, thinking person.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I think this is more of a popular notion than the stance of any serious Bible student. Most know that hell was created for the devil and his angels. But I suppose you would like to call it something else. Like what?

Matthew 25:41 NIV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 Young's Literal Translation
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

Yes, I call it the Lake of Fire.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It seems to me that all three views have partial support in scriptures. (Damnationism, Annihilationism, Universal Reconciliation) This is maddening to the truth-seeker.

Yes, just as that Christian newsletter writer stated years ago. Doing my own due diligence in the Scriptures, it seemed to me that UR involved the least contradiction and the most harmony among verses, chapters and books.

 

[Wrangler]

It seems to me that all three views have partial support in scriptures. (Damnationism, Annihilationism, Universal Reconciliation) This is maddening to the truth-seeker.

Agreed. In my view, Damnationism and Annihilationism tell the story part way. Universalism tells the final disposition.

 

[Wrangler]

Just as with Salvation, the defeat of Death is a done deal, an ongoing process and a goal.

Like Damnationism, Annihilationism, Universal Reconciliation, these 3 - Death is a done deal, an ongoing process and a goal - are elements to a complete story.

In the context of my post, death is defeated is the key fact of the ongoing story. Universalism only has application if resurrection is possible.

 

[FineLinen]

Like Damnationism, Annihilationism, Universal Reconciliation, these 3 - Death is a done deal, an ongoing process and a goal - are elements to a complete story.

In the context of my post, death is defeated is the key fact of the ongoing story. Universalism only has application if resurrection is possible.

The Restitution of all things primary thrust is making the entire dimensions of the heavens, the earth and the underworld new. It encapsulates transformation in every area of Father's World. Nothing, but nothing, is not reconciled.

God is the Source, the Guide, the Goal of the all/ the ta panta.

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe in the Resurrection, where Spirit is applied back to a re-created body to produce a soul, which is the living, breathing, thinking person.

That idea usually tracks with a belief in a death (afterlife) of unconscious non-existence. Is that your position?

 

[Saint Steven]

Agreed. In my view, Damnationism and Annihilationism tell the story part way. Universalism tells the final disposition.

How do you find harmony in those discordant views? Are you a jazz music fan? -- lol

 

[Wrangler]

How do you find harmony in those discordant views? Are you a jazz music fan? -- lol

Why, yes, I am a jazz music fan. The answer is really simple. You must be familiar with Homer's Odyssey. He was asked a riddle about what walks on 4 legs in the morning, 2 in the afternoon and 3 in the evening. Its like that.

 

[Saint Steven]

Why, yes, I am a jazz music fan. The answer is really simple. You must be familiar with Homer's Odyssey. He was asked a riddle about what walks on 4 legs in the morning, 2 in the afternoon and 3 in the evening. Its like that.

But if Universalism is true, then Damnationism and Annihilationism are not true.
Universalism allows for neither. Unless I am missing something here. (very likely)

 

[FineLinen]

“Earth's crammed with heaven,
And every common bush afire with God,
But only he who sees takes off his shoes;
The rest sit round and pluck blackberries.”

― Elizabeth Barrett Browning