The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Hillsage said:
And calling Young's obscure is pretty revealing of you Steve. Do a Google or something.

I'm familiar with Young's.
I first used it in my Sabbath debates. He has an interesting but unreliable take on Sunday being the Sabbath. Here's one of seven.

Matthew 28:1 YLT
And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Hillsage said:
As for your judgment of the YLT, the author of the YLT is the same James Young who wrote Young's (Greek Hebrew) analytical concordance to the bible. Ever hear of it? I believe it is second in sales compared to Strong's.

Right. Young's for the Young, Strong's for the strong. -- lol

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Hillsage said:
As anyone can easily see, the only obscure thing proved here above is how obscurely hell seems to be consistently translated. I mean, seriously just look at the drop from the old Infallible KJV versus the NEW infallible KJV. Where is hell disappearing to Steve?

Seriously?
That's a weak argument. There are several words and phrases used to describe eternal punishment in the Bible. Besides, you told me you believed in hell, right? As a temporary correctional punishment. ??? As in "age-during" punishment, as opposed to eternal punishment.

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Hillsage said:
No it is true, that's why I asked you earlier to give me ONE VERSE saying there was ETERNAL HELL. You never produced it, why?

It seems that you already know the answer to that question.
Do you hope to win the debate by limiting my resources?
What does this refer to in the scripture below? Hell, right?

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Furthermore, the inference was that the other position was built on a single verse. That's not entirely true.

FineLinen said: ↑
There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

FineLinen · Jul 4, 2019

Wrangler said:
I am a Universalist. One of the passages I like, Catholics use to support purgatory.

12 As others build on the foundation (whether with gold, silver, gemstones, wood, hay, or straw), 13 the quality of each person’s work will be revealed in time as it is tested by fire. 14 If a man’s work stands the test of fire, he will be rewarded. 15 If a man’s work is consumed by the fire, his reward will be lost but he will be spared, rescued from the fire.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (VOICE)

Hi there Wrangler & welcome to the good news of great joy.

I have no idea how you have come to grasp the restitution of all things. It surely must come by disclosure. Have you read Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin an Irish Anglican priest? It is an amazing work.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

FineLinen · Jul 4, 2019

Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

“Life”…Isa. 4:5

“Purification”…Matt. 3:3

“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

"Behold, I make all things new." -Christ Triumphant-

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

The replies come by the reams.
Name-dropping Saints and Doctors and Scholars and Concordance writers and spurious Bible translators...

But still ignoring the ACTUAL definition of the NT Greek word "aiōnios".

G166
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Still, there is a case to be made for "The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism".
But after 140 pages, we still haven't seen much of it. (poorly presented)

That Christ paid the sin debt of the whole world, that he preached to those in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection, that judgment has been on-going and is corrective in nature, all have biblical support.

How we balance that with the definition of aiōnios is another question. Do we just ignore it and hope it goes away? (turn a blind eye)

GTW27 · Jul 4, 2019

GTW27 said:
Then perhaps, it is time(past time) to tear down that building,( brick by brick if needed) in order to build another. This time it can be built upon The Rock.

I write what I am given Saint Steven and this was to encourage you

Saint Steven said:
This "age-during" definition for "eternal" (G166 aiōnios) is a MAJOR problem for Universalism.

It seems to be based on a handful of obscure translations (Youngs Literal translation, Concordant Literal translation, and Rotherham's translation), in which the translator took it upon themselves to insert "age-during" based on their theology instead of the ACTUAL Greek definition, which is eternal. This blundering move brings into question our eternal life and the eternal nature of God. Rather serious business, I would say. There are 68 uses of the word in the NT (KJV). So, this isn't an isolated problem.

The most obvious offender is in Matthew twenty-five, as indicated. Here below is the text in question. Here we see three uses of the word "eternal", all with the same definition in the Greek. Three things that are equally eternal: eternal fire, eternal punishment, and eternal life. So, if we claim that the "punishment" is not eternal, we also have to claim that eternal life is not eternal. But the Greek word definition does not support any of this conjecture. The problems don't end there, See below.

Matthew 25:41, 46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ...
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What about the other 66 uses of the same Greek word that is defined as eternal? What else would not be eternal if we apply the claims of Universalism? Why wouldn't we also apply "age-during" to this description of the eternal God?

Romans 16:26
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In this example our redemption would be "age-during". As if it had a planned obsolescence. (better check your warranty)

Hebrews 9:12
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I could continue, but I think you get the point.

I write what I am given Saint Steven. You need not explain anything to me. The words were meant to encourage you, so be encouraged!

Jeshu · Jul 4, 2019

συνείδησις said:
If universalism were true there would be no reason to fear GOD. That is why it is such a pernicious doctrine - it subverts the fear of GOD.

It all depends how you understand God's salvation to be universal.

Humanities Salvation | Christian Forums

Lazarus Short · Jul 4, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Right. Young's for the Young, Strong's for the strong. -- lol

Um...not really funny, as if a joke has any bearing on the thread subject. Surely James Young was a Biblical scholar of enough standing to produce a Bible Version and a Concordance, yes? Anyway, Strong's follows the Anglican KJV, and I don't follow denominational Bible versions. I have other problems with the KJV, but that can wait for another post.

Lazarus Short · Jul 4, 2019

Saint Steven said:
The replies come by the reams.
Name-dropping Saints and Doctors and Scholars and Concordance writers and spurious Bible translators...

But still ignoring the ACTUAL definition of the NT Greek word "aiōnios".

G166
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Had you paid attention to the thread as a whole, you would know that the definition of "aionios" has been dealt with AT LENGTH. Quoting a pet definition does not settle the matter. What does settle the matter is the realization that only God is eternal, as He is without beginning or end. We, as created beings, have a beginning, so that even if we live "forever," we do not become eternal.

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
Quoting a pet definition does not settle the matter.

It wasn't a pet. It was the ACTUAL definition. Universalism has a pet definition: "age-during". They made it up. Very creative. (but not the ACTUAL definition)

Wrangler · Jul 4, 2019

FineLinen said:
Hi there Wrangler & welcome to the good news of great joy.

I have no idea how you have come to grasp the restitution of all things. It surely must come by disclosure. Have you read Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin an Irish Anglican priest? It is an amazing work.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

Thanks. No, I haven't read that but thanks for the book recommendation. (There are SOOOO many great books).

Regarding how I came to universalism, I came to it through logic and Scripture. I provided the Scripture. So, I guess you are rejecting that.

In another thread, I led a Messiah Jew to it this way. Everyone is resurrected. Some are sent to heaven while others are send to "the 2nd Death." This is a misnomer, right? They were dead and resurrected for the explicit purpose of being put in the Lake of Fire.

So, first you have to accept the theology that all are resurrected. (I'll continue once you get to this point).

Wrangler · Jul 4, 2019

συνείδησις said:
If universalism were true there would be no reason to fear GOD. That is why it is such a pernicious doctrine - it subverts the fear of GOD.

This indicates THE LOWEST LEVEL OF MORAL DEVELOPMENT. See Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development.

Also, I believe you are confusing cause and effect. I do not avoid wrong doing to avoid punishment. I avoid wrong doing to avoid disappointing God. This was discussed in my Bible study last night. I fear disappointing God. It is not the fear of punishment of God.

Although I am a Universalist, I believe in purgatory. My fear is disappointing God because I have a loving relationship with Him, keeps me from straying from what I know to be His Will. Yes, I ask for forgiveness when I am aware that I have sinned but believe there will likely still be time in purgatory for me. Having said that, I am comforted by 1 Cor 3:15.

Hillsage · Jul 4, 2019

Saint Steven said:
The replies come by the reams.
Name-dropping Saints and Doctors and Scholars and Concordance writers and spurious Bible translators...

Yes, we do have Doctors of divinity and scholars who have written copiously for decades AND others from historical antiquity just as FL has copiously proven. But the 'nominal church' is still bound by the theologies that came from the carnal minded non Spirit baptized "scribes" of Roman Catholicism long ago. They set their precedent 500 years after the predominant theology of UR/UNI reigned. And being as good as 'Church history has proven', the RC church killed anyone and burned anything written that 'they' considered heresy. But here you guys are, still sucking to up their eternal hell fire damnation theology just like Martin Luther did. As it is, dear old Martin Luther apparently just may have came to his own knowledge of 'the truth' a few years later.

"The After Life' by Henry Buckle pg 168
Luther writing to Hansen Von Rechenberg 1522.

“God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it.
in the future."

Martin Luther"

Not saying that 'even I' think, that Luther is correct in his theology of "WINNING FAITH".

But still ignoring the ACTUAL definition of the NT Greek word "aiōnios".

Click to expand...

G166
aiōnios
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Grow up, your post is unanswered Steve because it's 'been answered' many times. But if you are not willing to read more than a kid who doesn't want to read, you can't be un-indoctrinated. And it is that indoctrination which makes for a difficult debate from those who have read studied and argued ad infinitum with so many like you.

But, just this one time, I'm going to try to provide you with a brief 'cookie' teaching, you can hopefully chew.

AION and AIONIOS

Aion is a noun, and aionios is an adjective. The adjective 'aionios' has little to do with the 'quantity' of time in an 'eon/age'. But is majorly concerned with the 'quality' of something that takes place in the time of an 'eon/age'.

For example, the 'noun/hour' is 60 minutes long. I can go to an 'hourly/adjective' 'meeting/noun' which has little to do with the quantity of time in that 'hour/noun'. But the adjective does describe what quality takes place anywhere IN that hour's time frame. And in this analogy above, that quality is the 'meeting'. And, it is a meeting that doesn't even have to last the full 60 minutes of an 'hour'.

So we always apply those grammar laws when we define the noun "aion" as 'an age'. And we then always define it's adjective "aionios/age during", as being descriptive of 'what' is taking place during an 'aion/age' time period. IOW "aionios life" and "aionios punishment". IOW "life" and "punishment" are both taking place during the same "aion" or "age".

But Eternal Hellers define "aion" as either an "age" or "eternity", based totally upon their theology and then call it a definition being defined by context. This is ridiculous for two reasons. One being 'their definition' of an 'aion', and the other is 'their application'. To have one word even be capable of being 'defined' as both an 'age' AND 'eternity' is no definition at all. But in compounding their translational error, Eternal Heller's 'contex' is then determined by their 'pretext'...which is believing in Eternal 'judgment/death/hell'. I hope this helps you see where we line up not only with the heart of God which is that 'we ought always to forgive'....LIKE HIM, we also line up with the rules of grammar.

“Aionios”
Here is a verse as found in our King James Bibles:

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal (aionios) life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world (aionios) began;

The words “eternal” and “world” are both the exact same Greek word—“aionios.” Remember a definition from Strong’s is eternal? So the natural question is why didn't the King James translators translate it the same in both cases? Simply because it wouldn’t make any sense! Let's try it.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the eternity began.

What does “before the eternity began” mean Steve? We know just what the translators knew back then, and that is this, there is no such thing as “before eternity,” so in order to make the verse work and support their theology, they had to change the meaning AND English interpretation of the Greek word aion (also called a 'scribe's lying pen'). They did so, to make the definition mean something that was obviously temporal. And in this case they used the word “world.” There is a word in the Greek language for “world” and it is the noun “kosmos,” Clearly, we cannot translate the second “aionios” to mean “eternal” because to do so, we would have to admit that there was something BEFORE eternity. So in this one little verse, we have clearly shown that you cannot always translate “aionios” to mean “eternal”.

As I said earlier Steve, you again aren't even posting to 'understand' anything. You are simply proving how indoctrinated you are, with all your posts ARGUING how we're wrong. It is boring me, because I have studied from your position, because it was mine. It is no longer.

Hillsage · Jul 4, 2019

Wrangler said:
This indicates THE LOWEST LEVEL OF MORAL DEVELOPMENT. See Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development.

Also, I believe you are confusing cause and effect. I do not avoid wrong doing to avoid punishment. I avoid wrong doing to avoid disappointing God. This was discussed in my Bible study last night. I fear disappointing God. It is not the fear of punishment of God.

Although I am a Universalist, I believe in purgatory. My fear is disappointing God because I have a loving relationship with Him, keeps me from straying from what I know to be His Will. Yes, I ask for forgiveness when I am aware that I have sinned but believe there will likely still be time in purgatory for me. Having said that, I am comforted by 1 Cor 3:15.

I do fear the punishment of God, because it sounds pretty painful.

HEB 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth/paideuo, and scourgeth/mastigoo every son whom he receiveth.

3146 mastigoo: to flog (lit. or fig.)

As a matter of fact, many died undergoing the sadistically painful lashes of Roman scourging. As a matter of fact, there is no apparent historical record of anyone, other than Jesus, ever having undergone both scourging and crucifying. That's really why he died so soon on the cross. He could/should have lasted 'a day' or days, as usually happened. But then he wouldn't have fulfilled the scripture about dying without a broken bone like the two thieves who were crucified with him.

But, those of us who understand the purposes of God's scourging us, also understand that His reasoning for doing so is to CHASTEN us.

3811 paideuo: to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment).

That's why we are supposed to "HUMBLE OURSELVES to receive His Grace". If we don't then it takes His corrective SCOURGING or humbling of our rebellion, so that we too might DIE TO SELF quicker. It is then that we avail ourselves to the life of His GRACE in us.

But, as a UR/UNI believer since the mid 70's I, and hopefully now you, both know that all His judgements and punishments serve 'truly eternal' purposes. Something that Orthodoxy does not know.

Wrangler · Jul 4, 2019

Hillsage said:
I do fear the punishment of God, because it sounds pretty painful.

If you are not a universalist, why are you posting in this thread?

Yes there are verses that support it. And there are verses that seem to go against it. I lean toward the former.

FineLinen · Jul 4, 2019

Wrangler said:
If you are not a universalist, why are you posting in this thread?

Yes there are verses that support it. And there are verses that seem to go against it. I lean toward the former.

Dear Wrangler: Hillsage has been on this thread posting from the very beginning. I assure you he believes in the Restitution of all things!

The Father of all fathers punishes with one objective ONLY: change & transformation.

Lazarus Short · Jul 4, 2019

Saint Steven said:
It wasn't a pet. It was the ACTUAL definition. Universalism has a pet definition: "age-during". They made it up. Very creative. (but not the ACTUAL definition)

Yes, actual definition, but one that suits you. Not all Christians and/or scholars agree with that definition. I think, personally, that the Greek word is more nuanced than its English translation/transliteration. Since you do not comment on the rest of post, do you then not disagree with it?

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