The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

FineLinen · Dec 5, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Then you believe people will suffer for their sins? Like a universal purgatory?

No my friend: I believe our God has destined to restore the broken wrecks of Adam1 by way of the process of "being made righteous". That process of the flaming swords of the Lord, swirling in every direction will likely cause pain and hurt but is for the purpose of change & transformation.

BNR32FAN · Dec 5, 2018

FineLinen said:
No my friend: I believe our God has destined to restore the broken wrecks of Adam1 by way of the process of "being made righteous". That process of the flaming swords of the Lord, swirling in every direction will likely cause pain and hurt but is for the purpose of change & transformation.

Scriptural evidence please.

FineLinen · Dec 5, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Scriptural evidence please.

My friend: I am old, I am worn out. My precious wife has issued an ultimatum to boot.

This link is only 100 pages with much to answer your questions. Please attempt to read a little and weigh the thoughts expressed by all. I do appreciate you trotting over to speak with us.

Is it not strange the long seasons that can elapse on the back-side of the desert?

Year by year falls into the great abyss, and at the juncture where we can no longer speak, and the great struggle to do the will of God vanishes into weakness and death, the Bush appears pulsating with Deity. It is there at the asamuth of death and weakness the Living One speaks.

"Take off your shoes from off your feet"

Holy ground!

The place where dust and Divinity meet! It is there in absolute weakness and inability, the Lord manifests Himself as the God who raises the dead. The road into the Tree of Life is by way of the flaming swords swirling in every direction. Those who reach for the Tree will suffer the loss of the hand, the fingers, the grasp of all they are! And as the process of the swirling swords rage upon these ones, great loss is inflicted, for nothing, no one, comes to the other side the same as it enters..NOTHING!...NOTHING!...NOTHING!

The great stages of the Living One's glory must be in degrees of doxa. We are changed from one degree of glory to another and another! It requires a thought beginning in the mind of the caterpillar that ultimately leads to the building of a cocoon from which caterpillars become butterflies, and dust moves from the road of life into the Divine One, described as "the Living", the "I am", not the I was, the I AM.

It is this Heavenly Road that grasps us, the Heavenly One, the Source leading to the Road, the sustaining Guide of the Road, and the Goal of the Road. All things lead to Him, through Him and for Him! And by Him all things consist.

It has taken me over 70 years to go a journey that could be accomplished in 11 days, but dust and Divinity must meet; the goal is not all the story, the path is of equal value in the I AM! Each of us are on different stages of our Father's drawing hand, some so wrapped up in themselves they cannot see the bush that is aflame and is not devoured. It is just a common bush for many, but>>>>>

"Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God; and only he who sees takes off his shoes. - Eliz. Barrett Browning-

ClementofA · Dec 5, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
“Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:14-15‬

“Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:27‬

“And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬

“The beast you saw was once alive but isn’t now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:8‬

Nowhere does Scripture say anyone will never be written in the book of life. Those who go to the lake of fire will obtain life, justification & righteousness after they go there:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

BNR32FAN said:
Im sorry but that is total nonsense and while looking at the only the verses shown in this example it can appear to be true except when you compare it to other scriptures.

Thank you for admitting that universalism "can appear to be true". Many bible commentaries by those who are not universalists say much the same thing.

BNR32FAN said:
If Christ’s atonement is for the sins of all men why do nonbelievers go to the lake of fire?

Are you a Calvinist who thinks Christ's atonement is only for some people & Love Omnipotent never had any intention of saving most people?

To answer why nonbelievers go to the lake of fire, it is to correct them so that they may obtain the salvation for which Christ's blood was shed for them. Similarly, this man was handed over to Satan for destruction that he may be saved:

1 Cor.5:3b I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.
1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Paul tells the church to deliver a sinner to Satan's power, why? So they will repent, and be saved in the day of the LORD.

ClementofA · Dec 5, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21

Not everyone will enter. If they will not enter that means never. If they were to ever enter heaven even later in the future then everyone who calls out to Him Lord Lord will enter heaven and Jesus’ statement is false. Now you might try to argue that they will later do the will of God and be allowed to enter but that still means that everyone who calls Lord Lord will enter. So the Bible does say that some will never enter heaven.

You ignore the context. The context is speaking of actions in this life (Mt.7:13-19, 22-23) & their consequences on a certain "day" (7:22), not final destiny or eternal destinies. On that "day" (7:22) some will suffer punishment by "fire" (7:19). On that particular "day" not everyone will enter "heaven", even if they say "Lord" (7:20) & claim to have done miracles in His name (7:22).

Yet, as regards final destiny, He shall save His people Israel, to whom He was sent, from their sins (Mt.1:21; 2:6; 15:24), including the likes of Judas Iscariot who betrayed Him. In fact, He shall take away the sins of the world (Jn.1:29), so all shall be saved.

Regarding the word "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..."Mark 9 Benson Commentary

Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."?

Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to. "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless torments it's next to nothing.

In that light, Mt.7:21-23 is more favorable to universalism than endless punishment.
Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.
Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

Matthew 7:23 refers to a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Some other remarks from Matthew's gospel are significant in this regard:

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Why affirm belief in Hell?

ClementofA · Dec 5, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
So if universalism is true then all of Christianity was wrong for the first 1900 years of Christianity? Not one church taught the truth about salvation?

In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages.

It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf

Universalism...First 500 Years

BNR32FAN · Dec 5, 2018

FineLinen said:
My friend: I am old, I am worn out. My precious wife has issued an ultimatum to boot.

This link is only 100 pages with much to answer your questions. Please attempt to read a little and weigh the thoughts expressed by all. I do appreciate you trotting over to speak with us.

Is it not strange the long seasons that can elapse on the back-side of the desert?

Year by year falls into the great abyss, and at the juncture where we can no longer speak, and the great struggle to do the will of God vanishes into weakness and death, the Bush appears pulsating with Deity. It is there at the asamuth of death and weakness the Living One speaks.

"Take off your shoes from off your feet"

Holy ground!

The place where dust and Divinity meet! It is there in absolute weakness and inability, the Lord manifests Himself as the God who raises the dead. The road into the Tree of Life is by way of the flaming swords swirling in every direction. Those who reach for the Tree will suffer the loss of the hand, the fingers, the grasp of all they are! And as the process of the swirling swords rage upon these ones, great loss is inflicted, for nothing, no one, comes to the other side the same as it enters..NOTHING!...NOTHING!...NOTHING!

The great stages of the Living One's glory must be in degrees of doxa. We are changed from one degree of glory to another and another! It requires a thought beginning in the mind of the caterpillar that ultimately leads to the building of a cocoon from which caterpillars become butterflies, and dust moves from the road of life into the Divine One, described as "the Living", the "I am", not the I was, the I AM.

It is this Heavenly Road that grasps us, the Heavenly One, the Source leading to the Road, the sustaining Guide of the Road, and the Goal of the Road. All things lead to Him, through Him and for Him! And by Him all things consist.

It has taken me over 70 years to go a journey that could be accomplished in 11 days, but dust and Divinity must meet; the goal is not all the story, the path is of equal value in the I AM! Each of us are on different stages of our Father's drawing hand, some so wrapped up in themselves they cannot see the bush that is aflame and is not devoured. It is just a common bush for many, but>>>>>

"Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God; and only he who sees takes off his shoes. - Eliz. Barrett Browning-

I’m sorry brother I can’t accept those words. This is a person’s own thoughts on what they believe. But I would like to say that I am grateful that we have in common our love for The Lord and thru this bond we will forever be brothers for all eternity. Have a blessed evening

BNR32FAN · Dec 5, 2018

ClementofA said:
Nowhere does Scripture say anyone will never be written in the book of life.

True but it doesn’t say anyone will be written in the book of life either. The thing we need to consider is this.

“And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬

The book of life is not written containing the names of those who are currently in heaven but the names of those who will be in heaven. The names of everyone who will receive salvation were written in the book of life before creation when no one was in heaven but God. What does that mean? It means God foresaw everyone who would be victorious over the world and endure to the end and wrote their names in the book of life before anything was created. So why isn’t everyone’s name not already in the book if God intends to save everyone? If I’m to be saved why is my name already in the book while I’m still alive? If my neighbor isn’t to be saved why isn’t his name already in the book if he will receive eternal life? The book of life will not be edited. It is written according to God’s omniscient omnipresent foreknowledge. There’s nothing He hasn’t already taken into consideration and accounted for. If He wrote it according to His foreknowledge it is complete because He sees all He knows all and He can see all time constantly in the present. Why would He later add names? It doesn’t make sense.

ClementofA said:
Those who go to the lake of fire will obtain life, justification & righteousness after they go there

Where is this written in the scriptures? Before we jump to Romans 5:18 let’s examine verse 17.

“For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ. So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:17-18‬ ‭

The key words here they that receive. That statement does not include everyone. Sure the free gift came unto all men but only to those who receive the gift will reign in life. If everyone receives the gift the words “to those who receive” is pointless. The phrase indicates a specific group not including all men.

ClementofA said:
Are you a Calvinist who thinks Christ's atonement is only for some people & Love Omnipotent never had any intention of saving most people?

No I refute Calvinism almost on a daily basis. God does not choose who will be saved and who will burn. Grace is not irresistible people chosen by God have rebelled since creation. Christ’s atonement is for all who will receive it. Those who repent, believe, have faith, are born again, and abide. If a person is missing any of those qualities they will not enter heaven.

ClementofA said:
To answer why nonbelievers go to the lake of fire, it is to correct them so that they may obtain the salvation for which Christ's blood was shed for them. Similarly, this man was handed over to Satan for destruction that he may be saved:

1 Cor.5:3b I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.
1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Paul tells the church to deliver a sinner to Satan's power, why? So they will repent, and be saved in the day of the LORD.

That man never went to the lake of fire. He was invited back to the church in 2 Corinthians 2:5-11

“I am not overstating it when I say that the man who caused all the trouble hurt all of you more than he hurt me. Most of you opposed him, and that was punishment enough. Now, however, it is time to forgive and comfort him. Otherwise he may be overcome by discouragement. So I urge you now to reaffirm your love for him. I wrote to you as I did to test you and see if you would fully comply with my instructions. When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit, so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭2:5-11‬

So what about the unforgivable sin?

“Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭

Do these people go to heaven to?

BNR32FAN · Dec 5, 2018

ClementofA said:
You ignore the context. The context is speaking of actions in this life (Mt.7:13-19, 22-23) & their consequences on a certain "day" (7:22), not final destiny or eternal destinies. On that "day" (7:22) some will suffer punishment by "fire" (7:19). On that particular "day" not everyone will enter "heaven", even if they say "Lord" (7:20) & claim to have done miracles in His name (7:22).

No that is not the context. Jesus does not say they will not enter heaven on that day.

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, (Judgement Day) Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-22

He says not everyone will enter heaven only those that do the will of My Father. Then He continues to describe how He will condemn those who are disobedient on “that day”.

BNR32FAN · Dec 5, 2018

ClementofA said:
In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages.

It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf

Universalism...First 500 Years

I read the first two but it’s getting late. The first link gave absolutely no quotes from any of the early church fathers at all. The second link was someone making a lot of assumptions based on a piece of Augustine’s writing where Augustine is clearly refuting universalism and I quote

It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express literal truth.

That is the entire quote from Augustine that was used in the link. His final statement expresses his point of view on the subject. Personally I would love to see everyone saved. It’s a nice story but it’s not scriptural. As a Christian I am tasked with the responsibility to spread the gospel as it was written not nice stories of fantasy to make it seem more appealing. I have to let God’s word say what it says not what I would like it to say.

ClementofA · Dec 5, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
True but it doesn’t say anyone will be written in the book of life either. The thing we need to consider is this.

“And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬

The book of life is not written containing the names of those who are currently in heaven but the names of those who will be in heaven. The names of everyone who will receive salvation were written in the book of life before creation when no one was in heaven but God. What does that mean? It means God foresaw everyone who would be victorious over the world and endure to the end and wrote their names in the book of life before anything was created. So why isn’t everyone’s name not already in the book if God intends to save everyone? If I’m to be saved why is my name already in the book while I’m still alive? If my neighbor isn’t to be saved why isn’t his name already in the book if he will receive eternal life? The book of life will not be edited. It is written according to God’s omniscient omnipresent foreknowledge. There’s nothing He hasn’t already taken into consideration and accounted for. If He wrote it according to His foreknowledge it is complete because He sees all He knows all and He can see all time constantly in the present. Why would He later add names? It doesn’t make sense.

I've already addressed this before...here:

Jason0047 said:
Actually, those who worship the beast in the future mentioned in Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 never even had their names written in the book of life
since the foundation of the world. So this means Jesus did not die for their sins as a part of Him dying for the sins of the world.

That means you are advocating limited atonement as Calvinists do. And which Scripture clearly opposes.

What gives you the notion that the "book of life" has a static number of names in it from the foundation of the world that cannot be changed or have names added or subtracted from it. Revelation 3:5 speaks of being blotted out of the book, as do other Scriptures:

Revelation 3:5
Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

Psalm 69:28
May they be erased from the book of life and not listed with the righteous.

Exodus 32:32
Yet now, if You would only forgive their sin... But if not, please blot me out of the book that You have written."

Exodus 32:33
The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will erase from My book.

If people in the book of life cannot lose their salvation & be blotted out, yet you believe Scriptures teaches people can lose their salvation, then why does Paul say:

Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, my true yokefellow, to help these women who have labored with me for the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

If people can lose their salvation, & those in the book of life cannot lose their salvation, how does Paul know those people will be saved? All he says is their names - are - in the book of life. Not that they cannot be erased from it with the loss of their salvation. Or added back in upon returning to the Father (cf. Lk.15, prodigal son story).

Moreover, Scripture says overcomers are given a new name:

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

So which names are in the book of life (BOL), people's old nature names, or their new names? Is it Abram, or Abraham? Is it Saul, or Paul? Tom Talbott remarks:

"Perhaps all the descendants of Adam, all who came into the world as "children of wrath", also go by a name that is not written in the BOL. Yes some names are written there from the foundation of the world and some are not. But is "Abram" written there? Or is it "Abraham"? In Revelation 2:17 we read: "To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden mana, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone, which no one knows except him who receives it." Evidently then, people can receive a new name, and this is certainly consistent with the idea of a new birth or a new creation in Christ. So is not the following consistent with the teaching about the Lamb's BOL? Even though no new names are ever added, people can (as all Christians do) receive a new name, one that has always been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world" (The Evangelical Universalist, Second Edition, by Gregory MacDonald, 2012, p.194).

Ultimately all will have life & "be constituted just", so all will be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

ClementofA · Dec 5, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
No I refute Calvinism almost on a daily basis. God does not choose who will be saved and who will burn. Grace is not irresistible people chosen by God have rebelled since creation. Christ’s atonement is for all who will receive it. Those who repent, believe, have faith, are born again, and abide. If a person is missing any of those qualities they will not enter heaven.

Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.

"God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian
sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

-----------------

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."

"Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement (James 2:13). So love will conquer all.

ClementofA · Dec 5, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
That man never went to the lake of fire. ‬

I'll leave that to God to judge. In any case the point of my response was to answer why people go to the LOF.

BNR32FAN said:
So what about the unforgivable sin?

“Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭

Do these people go to heaven to?

More literal, accurate & faithful translations read like the following:

Mt.12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be pardoned men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be pardoned. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be pardoned, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be pardoned, either in this age or in the one to come. (CLV)

The parallel passage in Mark says in literal translations:

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" (CLV)

29 who but ever may speak evil to the spirit the holy, not has forgiveness to the age, but liable is of age-lasting judgment. (Diaglott)

29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness—to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment; (YLT)

29 But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin: (Rotherham)

Paul speaks of the age to come (Eph.1:21). In the same context he refers to multiple ages to come (Eph.2:7), as do many other Scriptures (e.g. Lk.1:33; Rev.11:15). So a sin that is not pardoned in this age or the coming age does not require it mean it can never be pardoned, or that it cannot be pardoned in an age following the coming age.

For some people who lied to the Holy Spirit they were not pardoned from the penalty of death, which was an immediate physical death (e.g. Acts 5). The fact they were not pardoned from dying immediately did not mean they were to suffer endless punishments.

In this case a person is not pardoned. But it is limited until he die:

Isa 22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven [purged/atoned] you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Was the immoral person of 1 Cor.5:4-5 pardoned while in his sin? No, he was given over to Satan for destruction that he might be saved in the day of the Lord.

Was King Nebuchadnezzar pardoned during the 7 years God made him insanely eat grass like an animal. No. Though he wasn't pardoned, he wasn't punished forever, either.

Here we see a sin that won't be pardoned. It won't be pardoned "until" they pardon others:

Mt.6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Similarly, the not being pardoned here is "until" a certain point:

Mt.18:34 In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

If such a horrific thing as eternal punishment were the idea in Mt.12:31-32 & Mk.3:28-29, would Christ have used the ambiguous words aion & aionios? No. He would have used words such as eternal (aidios, Rom.1:20; Jude 6), endless (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4), no end (Lk.1:33), unlimited (apeiron, by Philo). Since He never used such words, He did not teach endless annihilation or torments.

The Spirit blasphemers (Heb.10:28-29) are even worse than a "serial sinner" such as Saul of Tarsus who was persecuting Spirit filled Christians, even unto death.

Even then, all of God's punishments are corrective, not merely pointlessly or sadistically meting out justice for justice's sake, but for the good of all, including the offender.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 6, 2018

ClementofA said:
I've already addressed this before...here:

That means you are advocating limited atonement as Calvinists do. And which Scripture clearly opposes.

What gives you the notion that the "book of life" has a static number of names in it from the foundation of the world that cannot be changed or have names added or subtracted from it. Revelation 3:5 speaks of being blotted out of the book, as do other Scriptures:

Revelation 3:5
Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

Psalm 69:28
May they be erased from the book of life and not listed with the righteous.

Exodus 32:32
Yet now, if You would only forgive their sin... But if not, please blot me out of the book that You have written."

Exodus 32:33
The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will erase from My book.

If people in the book of life cannot lose their salvation & be blotted out, yet you believe Scriptures teaches people can lose their salvation, then why does Paul say:

Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, my true yokefellow, to help these women who have labored with me for the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

If people can lose their salvation, & those in the book of life cannot lose their salvation, how does Paul know those people will be saved? All he says is their names - are - in the book of life. Not that they cannot be erased from it with the loss of their salvation. Or added back in upon returning to the Father (cf. Lk.15, prodigal son story).

Moreover, Scripture says overcomers are given a new name:

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

So which names are in the book of life (BOL), people's old nature names, or their new names? Is it Abram, or Abraham? Is it Saul, or Paul? Tom Talbott remarks:

"Perhaps all the descendants of Adam, all who came into the world as "children of wrath", also go by a name that is not written in the BOL. Yes some names are written there from the foundation of the world and some are not. But is "Abram" written there? Or is it "Abraham"? In Revelation 2:17 we read: "To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden mana, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone, which no one knows except him who receives it." Evidently then, people can receive a new name, and this is certainly consistent with the idea of a new birth or a new creation in Christ. So is not the following consistent with the teaching about the Lamb's BOL? Even though no new names are ever added, people can (as all Christians do) receive a new name, one that has always been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world" (The Evangelical Universalist, Second Edition, by Gregory MacDonald, 2012, p.194).

Ultimately all will have life & "be constituted just", so all will be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

I am not a Calvinist and I do not believe in Limited Atonement like they do. So you are making a false accusation. Anyways, we have already been over this one before. I made it clear that I strive not to debate with those who believe in Universalism because that would be like debating against something that is all too obvious to see (like debating against the existence of oxygen or rain or something). Believe whatever you like. I am not interested in conversing with you on the topic of Universalism. No offense, but I see it as worse in silliness than the belief that says that the Earth is flat.

ClementofA · Dec 6, 2018

I posted:

You ignore the context. The context is speaking of actions in this life (Mt.7:13-19, 22-23) & their consequences on a certain "day" (7:22), not final destiny or eternal destinies. On that "day" (7:22) some will suffer punishment by "fire" (7:19). On that particular "day" not everyone will enter "heaven", even if they say "Lord" (7:20) & claim to have done miracles in His name (7:22).

You replied:

BNR32FAN said:
No that is not the context. Jesus does not say they will not enter heaven on that day.

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, (Judgement Day) Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-22

He says not everyone will enter heaven only those that do the will of My Father. Then He continues to describe how He will condemn those who are disobedient on “that day”.

Jesus clearly connects verses 21 & 22 by using "Lord, Lord" in both verses. Verses 22-23 explain Jesus' meaning in verse 21 of the immediate context.

Berean Literal Bible
Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens. (Mt.7:21)
Matthew 7:21 Interlinear: 'Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.

Only those - "doing" (present tense, Mt.7:21) - the will of God will enter the "kingdom of the heavens". While - you - were not "doing" His will, you were disqualified. So there was a time when - you - & all other rebels like you - would not have been able to "enter into the kingdom of the heavens". To enter this kingdom rebels must change their ways and do the will of God. Mt.7:21 places no time limits on when rebels may change their ways & do God's will. Mt.7:21 does not say anyone will never enter the kingdom. So it fails as an isolated out of context "proof text" against biblical universalism.

Matthew 7:21-23 tells us, like 1 Cor.6:9-11, that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom. First the unrighteous must change & become righteous so that they may enter. Paul says some of those who became righteous were formerly those who could not enter the kingdom because they were unrighteous:

1 Cor 6:9-11
"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with Scriptural universal salvation.

FineLinen · Dec 6, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I am not a Calvinist and I do not believe in Limited Atonement like they do. So you are making a false accusation. Anyways, we have already been over this one before. I made it clear that I strive not to debate with those who believe in Universalism because that would be like debating against something that is all too obvious to see (like debating against the existence of oxygen or rain or something). Believe whatever you like. I am not interested in conversing with you on the topic of Universalism. No offense, but I see it as worse in silliness than the belief that says that the Earth is flat.

Dear Jason:"Worse in silliness"??

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

ClementofA · Dec 6, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Where is this written in the scriptures? Before we jump to Romans 5:18 let’s examine verse 17.

“For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ. So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:17-18‬ ‭

The key words here they that receive. That statement does not include everyone. Sure the free gift came unto all men but only to those who receive the gift will reign in life. If everyone receives the gift the words “to those who receive” is pointless. The phrase indicates a specific group not including all men.

Verse 17 makes no mention of "the many". V.19 does:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"As a good illustration, consider more closely a single text, namely Romans 5:18,1 and consider first its parallel structure:

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all [humans],
so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for [them] all.

"The whole point of such a parallel structure, so typical of Paul, is to identify a single group of individuals and to make two parallel statements about that single group of individuals, and the practical effect is therefore to eliminate any possibility of ambiguity. The very ones who came under condemnation, as a result of the first Adam’s act of disobedience, will eventually be brought to justification and life, as a result of the second Adam’s act of obedience. Or, as Paul put it in verse 19: the very ones who were constituted sinners, as a result of the first Adam’s act of disobedience, will eventually be constituted righteous, as a result of the second Adam’s act of obedience. I do not know how Paul could have expressed himself any more clearly than that."

Regarding the verb "to receive" (lambano) in Romans 5:17:

Consider "..those contexts in which Paul obviously used the verb “to receive” (lambanō) in a passive sense...Paul declared, “Five times I have received [active voice] … the forty lashes minus one” (2 Cor. 11:24), we understand that he received these 39 lashes in the same passive way that a boxer might receive severe blows to the head...Similarly, in Romans 5:18 and 19 Paul was comparing the effect of Christ’s one act of righteousness on the whole mass of humanity with the effect of Adam’s disobedience, pointing out in verses 15 and 17 that the latter is far greater, and far more extensive, than the former. So even though the Reformed New Testament scholar John Murray rejected altogether the universalist interpretation of our text, he nonetheless pointed out that the “word ‘receiving’ [in 5:17] … does not refer to our believing acceptance of the free gift but to our being made the recipients, and we are regarded as the passive beneficiaries of both the grace and the free gift in their overflowing fullness.”4 According to Paul, in other words, we no more choose to experience the beneficial effects of Christ’s one act of righteousness than we chose to experience the destructive effects of Adam’s disobedience."

"...Moo has attributed to Paul a fallacious argument of the following form:

(1) Only those sinners receiving the abundance of grace will “derive the benefits of Christ’s act of righteousness” and thus be saved.

Therefore,

(2) Not all sinners will “derive the benefits of Christ’s act of righteousness” and thus be saved.

"The premise sets forth a necessary condition of salvation, namely that a sinner must receive “the abundance of grace” in order to be saved, and the conclusion draws the inference that, therefore, some sinners will never meet that necessary condition. But the inference is obviously fallacious—as is the following inference of exactly the same form: only those believers who remain faithful to the end will be sanctified; therefore, not all believers will be sanctified. So even if Paul were not using lambanō in a passive sense, as he surely was, Moo’s appeal to 5:17 in an effort to explain away 5:18 would merely attribute to Paul the same fallacious inference that Moo brings to the text. For unless Paul himself had drawn a similar fallacious inference, neither “the deliberately worded v. 17” nor the “persistent stress on faith as the means of achieving righteousness” carries any implication that Paul intended the second “all” in 5:18 to be more restrictive than the first. Much less would it justify Moo’s conclusion that, according to Paul, “only certain people [that is, only some sinners and not all of them] derive the benefits from Christ’s act of righteousness.” Quite the contrary. Paul’s explicit affirmation in 5:18 that Christ brings “justification and life” to all humans already entails that all of the necessary conditions of such justification and life will eventually be met. So you can hardly challenge the universal scope of the second “all” in 5:18 merely by pointed out, as Moo does correctly, that the right kind of faith is one of these necessary conditions."

How to Read the Bible from a Universalist Perspective

Bible Highlighter · Dec 6, 2018

FineLinen said:
Dear Jason:"Worse in silliness"??

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

Yes, it makes a mockery out of God's fair justice and things do not appear so apparent when one looks at the Scriptures. The Scriptures are clear that the wicked are destroyed, but in the view of Universalism they are not destroyed but they are reformed? It makes living this life as if it does not matter. If everyone will eventually be saved, then why bother to accept Christ and to live for Him? Some Univeralists propose that there is a hell that will punish the wicked but this is only a temporary suffering. Again, we suffer in this life for the cause of Christ, so I fail to see how temporary suffering really matters in the scope of eternity.

ripple the car · Dec 6, 2018

FineLinen said:
No my friend: I believe our God has destined to restore the broken wrecks of Adam1 by way of the process of "being made righteous". That process of the flaming swords of the Lord, swirling in every direction will likely cause pain and hurt but is for the purpose of change & transformation.

Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need.

We should always, always have hope. God bless you, friend.

FineLinen · Dec 6, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Yes, it makes a mockery out of God's fair justice and things do not appear so apparent when one looks at the Scriptures. The Scriptures are clear that the wicked are destroyed, but in the view of Universalism they are not destroyed but they are reformed?

Dear Jason: The anointed word of St Paul is no "mockery"! Our Father's "cherished" purpose in Himself is the restoration of the ta panta!

Dr. Marvin Vincent

from Word Studies in the New Testament

by Dr. Marvin R. Vincent

Olethron Aionion (eternal destruction)

'Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of one's life is called the aeon of each one." Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160).

It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history.

The word has not "a stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

Sometimes translated world

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3.

The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time.

Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject's life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. "The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum."

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons.

A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, 'o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness.

Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting. Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God's relations to time. God's eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length.

It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact.

The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

Everlastingness

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded. That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting power and divinity of God." In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that "the mystery" has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title 'o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon.

I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the presentpossession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father's commandment is zoe aionios, John 12.50; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: "In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. 'Eternal life' is that which St. Paul speaks of as'e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and 'e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order."

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality.

Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

Olethron destruction

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition. If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says "the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, "they shall perish" (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. "They shall be changed" (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, "the Son of man came to save that which was lost" (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, "He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it," Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ's coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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He’s a Way of life

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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