The rest of the dead is key in determining when the millennium is meaning

DavidPT · Apr 27, 2023

claninja said:
I’ve stopped viewing the millennium as a strict, literal, chronological event, and started seeing it as simply a story that contains the truths of the gospel.

1.) In the story: dead saints are raised to life again in order to reign with Christ as a kingdom of priests for 1,000 years, and will never face the 2nd death. The story calls this the first resurrection.

The gospel truths to be found in this story: Christ is the first to rise from the dead. As a result anyone who believes in His name has been given eternal life, is part of the kingdom of priests, will rise again to never face the 2nd death, and will reign with Him.

2.) In the story: Satan is bound for 1,000 years and then is released to persecute the saints.

The gospel truths to be found in this story: the works of the devil were destroyed, and the strong man was bound by Christ. Satan was cast out of his position, and began to prowl as a lion, looking to devour. Christians will face persecution.

I think there are merits to both the premil and Amil sides. However, taking this story as a literal chronological event is difficult for both sides to reconcile with what is taught in the gospels and epistles.

In a way I kind of like the way you decided to approach some of this, yet at the same time, I just can't get on board with how chronology would be irrelevant, though.

For example.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Does not verse 2 imply that before he is bound a thousand years, he is not bound yet? Which would mean until when verse 2 is meaning, there is a period of time when he is not bound in the pit. Already this implies chronology.

Does not verse 7 then tell us he is once again in an unbound state? Would it not look like this? First he is in an unbound state for a period of time. Then he is in a bound state for a period of time. Once that period of time finishes, he is no longer in a bound state.

The question is, what is it that causes him to be bound to begin with? Is it not, that he has been decieiving the nations, therefore, in order to prevent this from happening any longer, he is then bound? Yet he doesn't remain bound. Eventually he is loosed. To do what? The very thing that got him bound to begin with, deceive the nations.

Except this time around, instead of this leading him to getting bound, it leads to his total demise, it lands him in the LOF after he deceives the nations the 2nd time around. Everything I have brought up thus far, how can it not involve chronological events?

Initially he is not bound, and while he is not bound he is deceiving the nations. Then he is bound, now he is no longer decieving the nations. Then he is loosed, now he is deceiving the yet again. Except this time around, at the end of this is his demise in the LOF, while the first time around, it led to him being bound.

The way Premils tend to look at things, is like such. In the real world, during the past 2000 years, have nations still been deceived? The answer to this tells us whether or not we are in the millennium. If nations have still been deceived during the past 2000 years, and that Revelation 20:3 is telling us--that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled--Premils see that as an obvious contradiction if we are supposed to be in the millennium now.

In what universe can, nations are still being deceived during the thousand years, then equal, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled?

claninja · Apr 27, 2023

DavidPT said:
In a way I kind of like the way you decided to approach some of this, yet at the same time, I just can't get on board with how chronology would be irrelevant, though.

For example.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Does not verse 2 imply that before he is bound a thousand years, he is not bound yet? Which would mean until when verse 2 is meaning, there is a period of time when he is not bound in the pit. Already this implies chronology.

Does not verse 7 then tell us he is once again in an unbound state? Would it not look like this? First he is in an unbound state for a period of time. Then he is in a bound state for a period of time. Once that period of time finishes, he is no longer in a bound state.

The question is, what is it that causes him to be bound to begin with? Is it not, that he has been decieiving the nations, therefore, in order to prevent this from happening any longer, he is then bound? Yet he doesn't remain bound. Eventually he is loosed. To do what? The very thing that got him bound to begin with, deceive the nations.

Except this time around, instead of this leading him to getting bound, it leads to his total demise, it lands him in the LOF after he deceives the nations the 2nd time around. Everything I have brought up thus far, how can it not involve chronological events?

Initially he is not bound, and while he is not bound he is deceiving the nations. Then he is bound, now he is no longer decieving the nations. Then he is loosed, now he is deceiving the yet again. Except this time around, at the end of this is his demise in the LOF, while the first time around, it led to him being bound.

The way Premils tend to look at things, is like such. In the real world, during the past 2000 years, have nations still been deceived? The answer to this tells us whether or not we are in the millennium. If nations have still been deceived during the past 2000 years, and that Revelation 20:3 is telling us--that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled--Premils see that as an obvious contradiction if we are supposed to be in the millennium now.

In what universe can, nations are still being deceived during the thousand years, then equal, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled?

I think chronology is relevant only as to how the story is told.

Beginning: Satan is bound and saints are raised from the dead to live and reign with Christ

Middle: Satan released and persecutes the saints

End: Satan destroyed and rest of the dead are raised to face the GWTJ.

I just don’t think the exact same chronology plays out in real life because the gospels and epistles do not mention any chronology like revelation 20.

So I view revelation 20 as just a story, that is not a literal event, but more of a parable that contains the truths of the Gospels told as epic to give hope to believers.

DavidPT · Apr 27, 2023

TribulationSigns said:
In case you did not read this before...

1Pe 5:8
(8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

How many different ways do you want us to answer it? How the spirit Satan can be bound and in a pit (Revelation 20), and yet still go about as a roaring lion in the world is a matter of "for whom he was bound," and to what degree. I use "the analogy" of a lion that is bound or chained to a stake in an open field. A blind person that walks through that field and strays into the area limited by the chain, is going to be devoured by the lion. Because the lion is free to roam to the length of the chain throughout the circumference of the area in all directions. By the same token, those who can see are going to avoid walking through the circumference or circle where the chained lion can devour them. That's the analogy of Satan being bound with a chain that Revelation chapter 20 puts forth. God has given "the elect" power so that Satan cannot harm them. Get it?? He is "bound" from doing so, while he is still free to devour the spiritually blind. For example, the closer we walk with God, the farther away from the devil's sphere we will be. The more we submit ourselves to God, the farther away the devil will be. For God is the one who has restrained Satan from us, Selah!! And sorry, it is NOT a literal/physical chain or abyss, it is spiritual restraint. By the grace of His cross, we are secure (sealed) that he cannot harm us. Indeed, he flees from us because the children of God have power over serpents by the grace of God.

James 4:6-8

"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."

Satan flees from the elect because the elect is sealed "that" the spirit Satan has no more power to bind them. His power is itself "bound" as if he were chained up and cast into an abyss of nothingness for their sake. It's all about Satan's binding "for the elect," of the world, and not for the world. That part you did not seem to understand.

John 17:9

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Listen, Christ came to save "His people," not (Matthew 1:21) all people in the world. That's the point Premillennialists (and Postmillennialists) are missing in thinking Christ will come to evangelize or Christianize the whole world. On the contrary, Christ Christianizes "His people" from out of the world, and from every nation in the world. You need to realize that Satan was bound from devouring the elect of the world, and yet free to devour the wicked and unfaithful of the world. Indeed, the very point your theology misses is that Satan "was bound for the sake of the elect." Unfortunately, Premillennialists usually have the idea that he was (or will be) bound for the sake of the whole world. Which is not the case. Sorry!

Explain the following then.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison

In light of this, assuming it is meaning in this age prior to the 2nd coming, how then do Amils, such as you, still apply the following in the same manner that you apply it when satan is allegedly bound?

Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Let me guess. Now all of a sudden, pertaining to 1 Peter 5:8, it is no longer meaning like a dog on a long leash. After all, how can it still be when Revelation 20:7 is meaning when someone is no longer bound, right?

Imagine that, only per Amil I guess, passages such as Mark 3:27 and 1 Peter 5:8, initially being understood one way, then being understood in an entirely different way later on. Meaning one way during the thousand years, an entirely different way after the thousand years.

Apparently, per Amil, since Mark 3:27 is involving binding, and that Revelation 20:7 is involving loosing, these passages are not compatible. And that they are only compatible when satan is already bound. Even that doesn't make sense, since one shouldn't need to bind someone that is already bound, and that Jesus was applying Mark 3:27 multiple times during the life of Christians.

Yet, Revelation 20 is involving binding satan only once, thus satan doesn't need Mark 3:27 applied to him multiple different times. IOW, you bind someone that is not bound, not someone that is already bound. Which means if Mark 3:27 is applicable throughout the NT church age, satan can't be bound then, since it wouldn't make sense to apply Mark 3:27 multiple times throughout the NT church age if satan is already bound.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 28, 2023

DavidPT said:
I realize there is already a current thread on this topic. Except that thread is for Amils only, and I'm not an Amil. Otherwise, instead of making a new thread on the same subject, I would have posted in that one instead. And since I'm interested in discussing this topic but can't since that other thread is Amil only, I'm left with starting a new thread on this same topic. But not to compete with the other one, but to be able to discuss this topic with others, regardless whether one is Premil or Amil.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I realize it is hard for both sides to do, keep Premil vs Amil out of it for a moment, and just let the text lead us to conclude what we need to conclude in regards to when the millennium is meaning.

When it says this in verse 5---This is the first resurrection---all interpreters, regardless which side of the debate they are on, should take that to be involving verse 4 and 6 and not this instead---But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. That is obviously not meaning the first resurrection if the first resurrection involves the thousand years, and that that is meaning after the thousand years.

Since there is still the rest of the dead following the first resurrection, this tends to tell us this.

Initially there is one big group, they are all dead. Then when the first resurrection occurs, some of this dead live again at that time while the remainder of the dead, they don't get to live again until the thousand years have expired. Does that mean they live again the moment the thousand years expire?

Though it could mean that, it doesn't have to mean that, because even if they didn't live again until a million years later, it would still agree with the text, that they don't live again until after the thousand years expire. A million years after the thousand years is clearly after it has expired. I'm just trying to illustrate a point here, so don't take this million years literally, as if it could be a million years after the thousand years when the rest of the dead live again.

When the rest of the dead live again, what sense is that meaning? Because what ever sense we take that to mean, why would that same sense not equally apply to those who have part in the first resurrection?

No. It does not say that the dead who have part in the first resurrection live again before reigning with Christ. It says "they lived and reigned with Christ". You've been told this many times. The Greek word translated as "lived" in that verse is zao and that word does not describe a resurrection, it describes people living and being alive. The Greek word translated as lived again in verse 5 is anazao and that word can be used to refer to a resurrection.

Also, scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, Col 1:18, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5), so having part in the first resurrection has to relate to having part in Christ's resurrection.

DavidPT said:
Another point I have raised in the past is this. Obviously, 2nd to Christ's, the bodily resurrection of the saints is the most important resurrection of all.

But if the first resurrection is not meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints, and that when the rest of the dead live again, is also not meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints, where then is the bodily resurrection of the saints recorded in Revelation 20?

Why does it need to be? If you conclude that it is, then you are saying the most important resurrection is not referenced in Revelation 20. So, what is worse? Concluding that the most important resurrection is not mentioned there or the second most important resurrection?

DavidPT said:
How is it reasonable that no resurrection event recorded in Revelation 20 is involving the bodily resurrection of the saints?

It's perfectly reasonable. How is it reasonable that the most important resurrection of all would not be mentioned there?

Spiritual Jew · Apr 28, 2023

Douggg said:
rapture/resurrection event to eternal life (before the great tribulation).

resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints to eternal life (after the great tribulation)(called the first resurrection)

-------------------------------------
1000 year reign and rule of Christ on this present earth.

------------------------------------ the end of the millennium reign

------------------------------------ last rebellion of the nations

------------------------------------ put down by God,

------------------------------------ Satan cast into the lake of fire

------------------------------------ then

massive resurrection of the rest of the dead.( called the second resurrection)

------------------------------------

destruction of this present earth, first and second heavens.

----------------------------------- death and hell cast into the lake of fire

Great White throne Judgement - for the rest of the dead.
some to everlasting life.
some to everlasting death, called the second death, into the lake of fire.

Can you show me where Paul referenced a supposed resurrection event before the great tribulation when he gave the order of resurrections here:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And, can you show me where he referenced a supposed resurrection of only "martyred great tribulation saints" there?

Spiritual Jew · Apr 28, 2023

keras said:
Lazarus is the example. There are others; what Elijah did.
Jesus made very sure that Lazarus was dead and starting to decompose. John 11:17 He was raised back to mortal life and presumably died years later of old age. Maybe at the Roman conquest in 70 AD, although he probably escaped to Pella, with all the Christians.

But, where does scripture teach that a mass group of believers would be resurrected as mortals in the future? Nowhere.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 28, 2023

DavidPT said:
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Some interpreters, mainly Amils, insist Revelation 19:21 and Revelation 20:9 are involving the same events, the same era of time. Personally, I would think that those in Revelation 19:21 are meaning some of the rest of the dead which lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

How can Revelation 19:21 refer to "some of the rest of the dead" when it's talking about living people being killed, just like Revelation 20:9?

DavidPT said:
In Revelation 20:9, these would not be dead during the thousand years if they are alive after the thousand years then dead after the thousand years. If we don't take these two accounts to be involving the same events, this would mean these in Revelation 19:21 are still alive before the thousand years, then dead before the thousand years, thus dead during the thousand years.

Huh? I can't make any sense of what you're saying here at all. Revelation 19:21 is referring to living people being killed when Christ returns. How can it be referring to anything else?

DavidPT said:
Eventually those in Revelation 20:9 would be dead as well once they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven. So then, when it says in verse 5 what it does, can it also be including those in verse 9?

It could, but what difference does it make if it does or not? Obviously, those who are killed in Rev 20:9 would be among the dead who are brought before the throne to be judged regardless.

DavidPT said:
The more I think about it, maybe it can. The reason why is because of what verse 5 is involving. It is involving living again, thus being bodily resurrected after having been dead, then standing before God at the GWTJ to be judged and sentenced. Clearly, regardless whether or not Revelation 19:21 and Revelation 20:9 are involving the same events, the same era of time, all of them have to live again, thus be bodily resurrected, in order to be present at the GWTJ.

Right.

DavidPT said:
Which then raises yet more questions. What now?

What questions? I'm not seeing any reason why Revelation 20:9 and Revelation 19:21 can't be referring to the same event.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 28, 2023

claninja said:
I’ve stopped viewing the millennium as a strict, literal, chronological event, and started seeing it as simply a story that contains the truths of the gospel.

But, it has to be a time period with a beginning and ending because it very clearly indicates that.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

These verses clearly indicate that the thousand years will end and then something will happen right after that for "a little season". I don't see how you can conclude that it's not a chronological event when it talks about the thousand years ending and something happening for "a little season" afterwards.

claninja said:
1.) In the story: dead saints are raised to life again in order to reign with Christ as a kingdom of priests for 1,000 years, and will never face the 2nd death. The story calls this the first resurrection.

The gospel truths to be found in this story: Christ is the first to rise from the dead. As a result anyone who believes in His name has been given eternal life, is part of the kingdom of priests, will rise again to never face the 2nd death, and will reign with Him.

2.) In the story: Satan is bound for 1,000 years and then is released to persecute the saints.

The gospel truths to be found in this story: the works of the devil were destroyed, and the strong man was bound by Christ. Satan was cast out of his position, and began to prowl as a lion, looking to devour. Christians will face persecution.

I think there are merits to both the premil and Amil sides. However, taking this story as a literal chronological event is difficult for both sides to reconcile with what is taught in the gospels and epistles.

It's not a problem for Amil at all, in my opinion. To resort to calling it just a story is far more difficult to reconcile than either Premil or Amil.

claninja · Apr 28, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
But, it has to be a time period with a beginning and ending because it very clearly indicates that.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

These verses clearly indicate that the thousand years will end and then something will happen right after that for "a little season". I don't see how you can conclude that it's not a chronological event when it talks about the thousand years ending and something happening for "a little season" afterwards.

As stated to Davidpt, I agree the the vision/story itself has a chronological order. I just don’t believe that chronological order plays out literally in real life, as the gospels nor acts nor epistles give any indication that the chronology of revelation 20 unfolds that way.

The vision separates the resurrection of the righteous from “the rest of the dead” by 1,000 years. No passage in the gospel, epistles, or book of acts mentions the separation of the resurrections by 1,000 years.

The vision states satan is bound for 1,000 years and then released to persecute the saints. No passage in the gospels, epistles, or book of acts states Satan is bound for a period of time, such as 1,000 years and then released.

My point was that i simply view revelation 20 as a parable that contains the truths of the Gospels:

Anyone who believes in Christ, the first to rise from the dead, has eternal life, is a kingdom of priests unto God, and will rise to reign with him.

Satan was bound and his works destroyed by Christs resurrection. Satan was cast out of his position when Christ was lifted up, but the church would face persecution (1 Peter 5:8).

Spiritual Jew said:
It's not a problem for Amil at all, in my opinion. To resort to calling it just a story is far more difficult to reconcile than either Premil or Amil.

But it is a problem for Amil, hence not everyone is Amil.

Douggg · Apr 28, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
Can you show me where Paul referenced a supposed resurrection event before the great tribulation when he gave the order of resurrections here:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And, can you show me where he referenced a supposed resurrection of only "martyred great tribulation saints" there?

1Corinthians15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

That's the rapture/resurrection event. The timing being before the great tribulation is in Luke 21:34-36 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Paul in 1Corinthians 15:22 is not addressing the martyred great tribulation saints, nor the rest of the dead.

My post #3 in this thread is basically an outline walk-through of Revelation 20. Revelation 20 is just after the great tribulation is over, and is about the 1000 years that follow. Events at the beginning and events at the end. Don't make it complicated.

anetazo · Apr 28, 2023

Gods Elect won't water down God's word. Jeremiah chapter 1,God told Jeremiah to not hold back My word. Jeremiah wasn't popular with many people. A true servant of God won't win popularity contest. One third is 4 billion people. In revelation chapter 12, the dragon, that's satan, cast one third to earth. The one third are God's children. Jeremiah chapter 4 tells us their Soddish children. Means, stupid. In the first earth age, one third of God's children followed satan. Gospel of Peter tells us of 3 earth ages. Were in the second earth age. The one third are here now. Revelation chapter 13, God will satan as antichrist near future, to test people. The majority will flunk out. Thier biblically illiterate. The one third will worship satan again near future. This isn't roll of the dice. Gods word states it. Revelation chapter 20. The spirtualty dead will be taught during millennium. They worshipped antichrist in the flesh. During millennium, it will discipline and teaching for spirituality dead. The one third are a real piece of work. At end of millennium, satan will test the spirtualty dead. Many people will choose to follow satan into lake of fire. This is beyond mind boggling. Revelation chapter 20 says it will happen. The one third never learned thier lesson. God wants the one third tested. We can't have problems or trouble makers in the eternity.

keras · Apr 28, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
But, where does scripture teach that a mass group of believers would be resurrected as mortals in the future? Nowhere.

In Revelation 20:4.
Those faithful Christians killed for their faith, during the GT time of the final 3 1/2 years. will be raised back to life. Scripture does not say they wil become immortal.

TribulationSigns · Apr 28, 2023

keras said:
In Revelation 20:4.
Those faithful Christians killed for their faith, during the GT time of the final 3 1/2 years. will be raised back to life. Scripture does not say they wil become immortal.

Revelation 20:4 does not speak about the Great Tribulation period. It speaks to 1,260 days of faithful Testimony (first part of the 70th week) of the Saints during the millennial kingdom when many people have dead/killed. Their souls already went up to heaven the moment their physical bodies die. Therefore, there won't be a physical resurrection of their bodies.

The great tribulation comes after 1,260 days when Two WItnesses' testimony is finished, especially when the beast comes out of the bottomless pit.

keras · Apr 29, 2023

TribulationSigns said:
Revelation 20:4 does not speak about the Great Tribulation period. It speaks to 1,260 days of faithful Testimony (first part of the 70th week) of the Saints during the millennial kingdom when many people have dead/killed. Their souls already went up to heaven the moment their physical bodies die. Therefore, there won't be a physical resurrection of their bodies.

The great tribulation comes after 1,260 days when Two WItnesses' testimony is finished, especially when the beast comes out of the bottomless pit.

It is fairly obvious to most that the Great tribulation coincides with the world control of the 'beast. The second half of Daniels 70th 'week'. The same 1260 days that the 2 Witnesses preach in Jerusalem

Yes; their souls do go to heaven when they are murdered. As do all the martyrs; Revelation 6:9-11. But we are told that Jesus will specifically bring their souls with Him when He Returns to the earth.
Then the Bible simply says; they lived again...... there is no mention of immortality for anyone before the Book of Life in opened, Rev 20:11-15
Also, you must explain Rev 20:6, which says they may die a second death

You make a blatant and seriously wrong interpretation of scripture to say they won't be raised physically. Lazarus was the demonstration of how it can happen.

TribulationSigns · Apr 30, 2023

keras said:
It is fairly obvious to most that the Great tribulation coincides with the world control of the 'beast. The second half of Daniels 70th 'week'. The same 1260 days that the 2 Witnesses preach in Jerusalem

First, you got the wrong Jersualem as well as the wrong Israel.

It is NOT about the beast controlling the "world" since the world was always in Satan's camp. Rather it is about a little season that God allows Satan to come into His New Testament congregation as a judgment upon unfaithful people. This is how Satan works through his army of false prophets and christs to deceive those IN THE CHURCH which Jersualem, Israel, and Judah is TYPE OF in the New Testament period. Spiritual discerned. God is NOT interested in a literal country, city, or people in the Middle East!! Selah!

The great city, Jersualem, in Revelation 11 is the home of Two Witnesses, the faithful witnesses of God's Word. It is the church all over the world, wherever Elect are. The Christians are the sealed Elect who received power with the Holy Spirit to preach God's Word to the world. This is the day of salvation. This is why Satan was bound for this purpose! Once all Elect has been secured (Revelation 7:1-4), the beast comes out of the bottomless pit and will wage spiritual war, and overcome and kill Elects in the church. Not physically killed, but SILENCE the true testimony in the church where they will rejoice and exchange their false doctrines (gifts) as they please with little resistance from truthful witnesses. For example for the past 30 years, more and more church are allowing homosexuality into the church without the need to repent. They support transgenderism. They allow women to be pastors. They are teaching the prosperity gospel. They are getting into politics. They are having entertainment that does NOT glorify God. etc. etc . etc. These are the abominations to the point of desolation - the abomination of desolation.

So yeah, the 1,260 days are the symbolic period of faithful testimony until all Elect are secured, THEN the beast will come out to silence them so the apostasy take root in the church.

Spiritual Jew · May 2, 2023

Douggg said:
1Corinthians15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

That's the rapture/resurrection event.

No kidding. Of course. But, I asked you where the passage indicates that it's before the great tribulation? Nowhere is the correct answer.

Douggg said:
The timing being before the great tribulation is in Luke 21:34-36 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

No, it is not in those passages at all. Those passages are talking about the day that Christ returns. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air on that day and then His wrath will come down on all of the unbelievers on the earth and, as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, "they will not escape".

Douggg said:
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Paul in 1Corinthians 15:22 is not addressing the martyred great tribulation saints, nor the rest of the dead.

He was addressing the order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality. The first in order was Christ's resurrection. Next in order are those who belong to Christ at His second coming. That's it. There will be not be a separate resurrection of "martyred great tribulation saints" or else Paul would have mentioned that. The rest of the dead are unbelievers so they did not fit the context of what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 15:22-23. The context is related to the order of bodily resurrections of believers unto immortality.

Douggg said:
My post #3 in this thread is basically an outline walk-through of Revelation 20. Revelation 20 is just after the great tribulation is over, and is about the 1000 years that follow. Events at the beginning and events at the end. Don't make it complicated.

LOL. This is the most ironic post I've ever seen. For you to tell someone else "Don't make it complicated" is hilarious.

Spiritual Jew · May 2, 2023

keras said:
In Revelation 20:4.
Those faithful Christians killed for their faith, during the GT time of the final 3 1/2 years. will be raised back to life. Scripture does not say they wil become immortal.

Give me just one other scripture reference which teaches that Christians will be resurrected in mortal bodies. If that was true then we surely could find that being taught elsewhere in scripture. So, where can we find that?

keras · May 2, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
Give me just one other scripture reference which teaches that Christians will be resurrected in mortal bodies. If that was true then we surely could find that being taught elsewhere in scripture. So, where can we find that?

The only reason I reply to this, is to refute your errors for the lurkers here.

I said in #34 that Lazarus was the example. Jesus waited for four days after He received the message that Lazarus was dead. John 11:17
There is no reason given for why Jesus delayed going to raise Lazarus other than Jesus wanted for us to sure of how He can and will again, raise dead people back to mortal life. Even if their corpse's have decomposed. as the GT martyrs will have.

The other proof of how Jesus will raise the GT martyrs back to mortal life, is how they can die again, of old age or accident.
BUT; their second death is not final, as they will rise immortal at the GWT Judgement. Revelation 20:4-6

The whole idea of anybody receiving immortality or 'glorified bodies', before the final Judgment and Eternity, is wrong and only false teachers promote such unbelievable ideas.

Spiritual Jew · May 2, 2023

keras said:
The only reason I reply to this, is to refute your errors for the lurkers here.

I said in #34 that Lazarus was the example. Jesus waited for four days after He received the message that Lazarus was dead. John 11:17
There is no reason given for why Jesus delayed going to raise Lazarus other than Jesus wanted for us to sure of how He can and will again, raise dead people back to mortal life. Even if their corpse's have decomposed. as the GT martyrs will have.

Read the question again. I'm asking for any scripture which says that dead believers will be resurrected with mortal bodies in the FUTURE. Showing that someone was raised with a mortal body in the PAST proves nothing about the FUTURE.

keras said:
The other proof of how Jesus will raise the GT martyrs back to mortal life, is how they can die again, of old age or accident.

Where is this taught in scripture?

keras said:
BUT; their second death is not final, as they will rise immortal at the GWT Judgement. Revelation 20:4-6

You are making things up that are not taught in scripture. Scripture says that the second death is being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15). That is final and would never be something that would happen to a believer.

keras said:
The whole idea of anybody receiving immortality or 'glorified bodies', before the final Judgment and Eternity, is wrong and only false teachers promote such unbelievable ideas.

It is clearly taught in scripture that we will be changed to have immortal bodies at the last trumpet which will sound when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:22-23;51-52). The final judgment will occur very shortly after that, so what difference does it make if someone is changed the moment He returns or a very short time afterwards? It doesn't.

keras · May 3, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
Read the question again. I'm asking for any scripture which says that dead believers will be resurrected with mortal bodies in the FUTURE. Showing that someone was raised with a mortal body in the PAST proves nothing about the FUTURE.

Revelation 20:4 Jesus will bring the souls of the GT martyrs back from under the Altar in heaven and bring them back to life, or: they lived again...
Lazarus was the precursor for what Jesus will do for the GT martyrs

Spiritual Jew said:
Where is this taught in scripture?

Revelation 20:6 says those who are in this first Resurrection - the GT martyrs, can die again, but as their names are in the Book of Life. their second death will not affect their getting immortality at the GWT Judgment.

Spiritual Jew said:
It is clearly taught in scripture that we will be changed to have immortal bodies at the last trumpet which will sound when Christ returns

The last Trump is not when Jesus Returns; that is the shout of the Archangel and the trump of God, 1 Thess 4:16. ONLY after the Millennium does the Last Trumpet call all the dead to rise and stand in Judgment.

But you, of course; are fooled by the AMill theory and avoid reading Rev 20, as that Chapter destroys AMill.
Don't you realize that to downgrade and deny the Words of one Bible Chapter, you are calling ALL the Bible into question? Not a good look and the credibility of the people who believe AMillenniumism, is shot to ribbons
.

The rest of the dead is key in determining when the millennium is meaning

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