A-Mil Only The rest of the dead did not live until the 1000 years came to an end?

[Trivalee]

1Pe 5:8
(8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

• How many different ways do you want us to answer it? How the spirit Satan can be bound and in a pit (Revelation 20), and yet still go about as a roaring lion in the world is a matter of "for whom he was bound," and to what degree. I use "the analogy" of a lion that is bound or chained to a stake in an open field. A blind person that walks through that field and strays into the area limited by the chain, is going to be devoured by the lion. Because the lion is free to roam to the length of the chain throughout the circumference of the area in all directions. By the same token, those who can see are going to avoid walking through the circumference or circle where the chained lion can devour them. That's the analogy of Satan being bound with a chain that Revelation chapter 20 puts forth. God has given "the elect" power so that Satan cannot harm them. Get it?? He is "bound" from doing so, while he is still free to devour the spiritually blind. For example, the closer we walk with God, the farther away from the devil's sphere we will be. The more we submit ourselves to God, the farther away the devil will be. For God is the one who has restrained Satan from us, Selah!! And sorry, it is NOT a literal/physical chain or abyss, it is spiritual restraint. By the grace of His cross, we are secure (sealed) that he cannot harm us. Indeed, he flees from us because the children of God have power over serpents by the grace of God.

James 4:6-8

• "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
• Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
• Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."

Satan flees from the elect because the elect is sealed "that" the spirit Satan has no more power to bind them. His power is itself "bound" as if he were chained up and cast into an abyss of nothingness for their sake. It's all about Satan's binding "for the elect," of the world, and not for the world. That part you did not seem to understand.

John 17:9

• "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Listen, Christ came to save "His people," not (Matthew 1:21) all people in the world. That's the point Premillennialists (and Postmillennialists) are missing in thinking Christ will come to evangelize or Christianize the whole world. On the contrary, Christ Christianizes "His people" from out of the world, and from every nation in the world. You need to realize that Satan was bound from devouring the elect of the world, and yet free to devour the wicked and unfaithful of the world. Indeed, the very point your theology misses is that Satan "was bound for the sake of the elect." Unfortunately, Premillennialists usually have the idea that he was (or will be) bound for the sake of the whole world. Which is not the case. Sorry!

Let's bring this to a head, shall we? I don't want you to give me passages that do not address my question.

1-Please give me one or two Bible passages that show Satan presently bounded.
2-Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. 3 The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterwards, he must be released for a little while.

• Do you believe the above (Rev 20:1-3) to be already fulfilled or still in the future?
• If you believe it is already fulfilled, please explain - (given the timescale as by John the Revelator) why the scriptures say it will occur after the defeat of the AC and his False Prophet when the Lord returns.
• Finally, if you say it is still in the future, then explain how satan is currently bound according to you and will yet be bound again in the end times.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Let's bring this to a head, shall we? I don't want you to give me passages that do not address my question.

1-Please give me one or two Bible passages that show Satan presently bounded.

Already explained in #14

2-Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. 3 The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterwards, he must be released for a little while.

• Do you believe the above (Rev 20:1-3) to be already fulfilled or still in the future?

Fulfilled at the Cross.

Satan was bound by Christ at the Cross until the building of the church (1,260 symbolic days) is finished. After this God let Satan to come out to the bottomless pit to be used as judgment upon His unfaithful congregation (Babylon the Great).

• If you believe it is already fulfilled, please explain - (given the timescale as by John the Revelator) why the scriptures say it will occur after the defeat of the AC and his False Prophet when the Lord returns.

Show me the Scripture that says this.

• Finally, if you say it is still in the future, then explain how satan is currently bound according to you and will yet be bound again in the end times.

As I said, Satan has been bound since the Cross for the first part of the final covenant week (1,260 days), until the building of the church through the testimony of two witnesses is finished, then he will come out of the bottomless pit. Read for yourself in Revelation 11:7. After this Satan will be loosened for a SHORT SEASON before Christ return. That is it. There won't be future 1,000 years kingdom as you believe.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Comparing these two passages, is it your view that those who are saved receive spiritual bodies immediately after death (will not be found naked) and those who are unsaved receive spiritual bodies at the judgment? Is this what you mean by saying, "I do not teach 2nd resurrection as physical"?

I did not say that. Please read Revelation 20 carefully:

Rev 20:4
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Souls, not spiritual bodies. And also in Revelation 6...
Rev 6:9-11
(9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
(10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
(11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Souls, not spiritual bodies. They were given white robes and was told to wait a little season. They won't receive spiritual bodies until the Last Day when they will receive it while going down with Christ while the "alive and remain" physical bodies of Christians on earth will change to spiritual bodies and meet with them in the air.

You say that "No unsaved person is judged" but by staying unconscious until judgment day (in your view) he is actually being judged.

Those who are part of the "rest of the dead" are already condemned and reserved for the Last Day. They will stand before God to go over their works.

what is the point of the unsaved being resurrected for judgment?

He wants all to stand before God to receive what is according to their work whether good or bad. Second Death is reserved for those who are unsaved.

Do you believe in the resurrection of the body?

What for? No flesh body can survive standing before the throne of God anyway, let alone beingthrown into the Lake of Fire (Second Death). It has to be spiritual bodies that last forever. Selah!

 

[Andrewn]

Souls, not spiritual bodies. They were given white robes and was told to wait a little season. They won't receive spiritual bodies until the Last Day when they will receive it while going down with Christ while the "alive and remain" physical bodies of Christians on earth will change to spiritual bodies and meet with them in the air.

In this case, the mode of the resurrection of the saved during the Millennium differs from the mode of resurrection at the end of the Millennium (the latter will be raised w/ spiritual bodies), and the parallelism between v. 4 and v. 5 is absent.

What for? No flesh body can survive standing before the throne of God anyway, let alone beingthrown into the Lake of Fire (Second Death). It has to be spiritual bodies that last forever. Selah!

Jesus' physical body was resurrected (albeit changed), and the standard belief is that our bodies will be similarly resurrected.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In this case, the mode of the resurrection of the saved during the Millennium differs from the mode of resurrection at the end of the Millennium (the latter will be raised w/ spiritual bodies), and the parallelism between v. 4 and v. 5 is absent.

Mode of resurrection?? LOL.

Jesus' physical body was resurrected (albeit changed), and the standard belief is that our bodies will be similarly resurrected.

Nope. We will get the spiritual bodies.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

Amillennialists believe the 1st resurrection is spiritual, associated w/ belief in Christ and baptism.

This implies that the "rest of the dead" will have a spiritual resurrection at the end of the Millennium.

Why do you say that? Revelation 20 does not refer to the bodily resurrection of believers, it only refers to the bodily resurrection of unbelievers.

If this is the case, it implies some sort of Universalism.

If this is not the case, and the 2nd resurrection is physical, then the 1st resurrection must also be physical.

How do Amillennialists approach this conundrum?

Having part in the first resurrection does not have to be physical, but I do believe that the first resurrection itself is physical because the first resurrection itself was Christ's bodily resurrection and we all have part in His resurrection spiritually, as passages like Ephesians 2:4-6, Romans 6:4-5 and Colossians 2:12-13 allude to.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

 

[Andrewn]

Revelation 20 does not refer to the bodily resurrection of believers, it only refers to the bodily resurrection of unbelievers.

I do believe that the first resurrection itself is physical

These are the typical beliefs of pre-Millennialists, and they do maintain the parallelism between Rev 20:4 and Rev 20:5. But there is no suggestion of a physical Millennium anywhere else in the NT. It is only in Rev 20, which is a highly symbolic chapter.

 

[Andrewn]

It does not say specifically where they rise from.

I missed this comment before. What did you mean? What are the different possibilities?

 

[HTacianas]

I missed this comment before. What did you mean? What are the different possibilities?

They could be in Sheol, or Hades, etc., meaning some dwelling place of souls awaiting judgement or they could already be in the lake of fire but are brought out for judgement, or they could be in some other place. Even the righteous dead might be held in some place prior to judgement. The Roman Church has a defined teaching on Purgatory. The idea of Purgatory exists among the Orthodox Churches but it is not a defined dogma.

 

[Andrewn]

or they could be in some other place.

They could also be in Paradise. I understand that the Orthodox Churches believe in the possibility of post-mortem salvation of the unrighteous. And the Apostle Peter wrote:

1Pe 4:6 And this is the reason why the gospel was preached even to the dead, so that, although they might be judged in the flesh like men, they might enjoy the life of God in the spirit.

 

[Trivalee]

Already explained in #14

Fulfilled at the Cross.

Satan was bound by Christ at the Cross until the building of the church (1,260 symbolic days) is finished. After this God let Satan to come out to the bottomless pit to be used as judgment upon His unfaithful congregation (Babylon the Great).

Show me the Scripture that says this.

As I said, Satan has been bound since the Cross for the first part of the final covenant week (1,260 days), until the building of the church through the testimony of two witnesses is finished, then he will come out of the bottomless pit. Read for yourself in Revelation 11:7. After this Satan will be loosened for a SHORT SEASON before Christ return. That is it. There won't be future 1,000 years kingdom as you believe.

I've had another look at your post #14 but found NOTHING that remotely says that satan was bound at the cross as you claimed. Your entire doctrine is built on a fantasy that lacks even one shred of scriptural support. It's no more than mumbo-jumbo to posit that "Satan was bound by Christ at the Cross until the building of the church (1,260 symbolic days) is finished. After this God let Satan to come out to the bottomless pit to be used as judgment upon His unfaithful congregation (Babylon the Great)." without a scripture to back it up.

This is a mature Christian Forum, not a kindergarten bible class where you can delight children with fantasy and innuendo.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I've had another look at your post #14 but found NOTHING that remotely says that satan was bound at the cross as you claimed. Your entire doctrine is built on a fantasy that lacks even one shred of scriptural support. It's no more than mumbo-jumbo to posit that "Satan was bound by Christ at the Cross until the building of the church (1,260 symbolic days) is finished. After this God let Satan to come out to the bottomless pit to be used as judgment upon His unfaithful congregation (Babylon the Great)." without a scripture to back it up.

I think you have a problem understanding what Jesus talked about in Matthew 12:28-29 in relation to Revelation 20. Praying for you.

This is a mature Christian Forum, not a kindergarten bible class where you can delight children with fantasy and innuendo.

True, I suppose you are correct. This forum looks to me like most who claim to be "mature" are actually pooled ignorance.

 

[Andrewn]

I've had another look at your post #14 but found NOTHING that remotely says that satan was bound at the cross

How else would you interpret the following:

"According to the New Testament, the central thing Jesus did was drive out the “prince of this world” (Jn 12:31). He came to “destroy the works of the devil” (I Jn 3:8). He came to “destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil” in order to “free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death” (Heb. 2:14-15). Jesus lived, died and rose again to establish a new reign that would ultimately “put all his enemies under his feet” (I Cor 15:25). Though “the strong man” was “fully armed,” one who was “stronger than he” had finally arrived who could attack and overpower him” (Lk 11:21-22). While the cosmic “thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy,” Jesus came into the world to vanquish the thief so that all “may have life and have it abundantly” (Jn 10:10). Jesus “disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them…” (Col 2:15). In a word, Jesus came to end the cosmic war that had been raging from time immemorial and to set Satan’s captives free ( Lk 4:18; Eph 4:8)."

Quotation is taken from:

The "Christus Victor" View of the Atonement - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

God accomplished many things by having his Son become incarnate and die on Calvary. Through Christ God revealed the definitive truth about himself (Rom 5:8, cf. Jn 14:7-10); reconciled all things, including humans, to himself (2 Cor 5:18-19; Col 1:20-22), forgave us our sins (Ac 13:38; Eph 1:7)...

reknew.org

 

[Trivalee]

I think you have a problem understanding what Jesus talked about in Matthew 12:28-29 in relation to Revelation 20. Praying for you.

True, I suppose you are correct. This forum looks to me like most who claim to be "mature" are actually pooled ignorance.

Why don't you enlighten me and your readers on how Matt 12:28-29 relate to the topic?

 

[Trivalee]

How else would you interpret the following:

"According to the New Testament, the central thing Jesus did was drive out the “prince of this world” (Jn 12:31). He came to “destroy the works of the devil” (I Jn 3:8). He came to “destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil” in order to “free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death” (Heb. 2:14-15). Jesus lived, died and rose again to establish a new reign that would ultimately “put all his enemies under his feet” (I Cor 15:25). Though “the strong man” was “fully armed,” one who was “stronger than he” had finally arrived who could attack and overpower him” (Lk 11:21-22). While the cosmic “thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy,” Jesus came into the world to vanquish the thief so that all “may have life and have it abundantly” (Jn 10:10). Jesus “disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them…” (Col 2:15). In a word, Jesus came to end the cosmic war that had been raging from time immemorial and to set Satan’s captives free ( Lk 4:18; Eph 4:8)."

Quotation is taken from:

The "Christus Victor" View of the Atonement - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

God accomplished many things by having his Son become incarnate and die on Calvary. Through Christ God revealed the definitive truth about himself (Rom 5:8, cf. Jn 14:7-10); reconciled all things, including humans, to himself (2 Cor 5:18-19; Col 1:20-22), forgave us our sins (Ac 13:38; Eph 1:7)...

reknew.org

There is no doubt that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and bring to light, God's eternal plan for humanity. The scriptures confirm it. However, there is no scripture that confirms that satan was bound at the cross. Unfortunately, Amillennialists have ignored several scriptures that show that satan is yet to be bound and instead, rely on conjecture and fantasy to support their assumptions. Just as you have presented numerous passages that neither explicitly affirm nor even allude to satan being bound - this is always the tactic of Amillennialists.

There is nothing in scripture that says satan is bound twice, i.e., presently bound and released (I don't even know when Amillennialists believe he's released) only to be bound again after Armageddon according to Rev 20:1-3.

 

[Andrewn]

There is nothing in scripture that says satan is bound twice, i.e., presently bound and released (I don't even know when Amillennialists believe he's released) only to be bound again after Armageddon according to Rev 20:1-3.

As an Amillennialists, I believe that Satan's release at the end of the current Millennium will coincide w/ the Great Tribulation. The war that Satan incites after his release would parallel what you call Armageddon.

Just as you have presented numerous passages that neither explicitly affirm nor even allude to satan being bound - this is always the tactic of Amillennialists.

Amillennialists believe that the numerous passages I quoted describe the binding of Satan. Whether this belief is right or wrong, I'm not using tactics to get you. A wise person would keep an open mind to all possibilities. We don't know the future.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Why don't you enlighten me and your readers on how Matt 12:28-29 relate to the topic?

I did. Read again and again until the Holy Spirit reveal the Truth to you. What part of Matthew 12:28-29 that I explained with bullet points do you NOT understand?!

 

[TribulationSigns]

How else would you interpret the following:

"According to the New Testament, the central thing Jesus did was drive out the “prince of this world” (Jn 12:31). He came to “destroy the works of the devil” (I Jn 3:8). He came to “destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil” in order to “free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death” (Heb. 2:14-15). Jesus lived, died and rose again to establish a new reign that would ultimately “put all his enemies under his feet” (I Cor 15:25). Though “the strong man” was “fully armed,” one who was “stronger than he” had finally arrived who could attack and overpower him” (Lk 11:21-22). While the cosmic “thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy,” Jesus came into the world to vanquish the thief so that all “may have life and have it abundantly” (Jn 10:10). Jesus “disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them…” (Col 2:15). In a word, Jesus came to end the cosmic war that had been raging from time immemorial and to set Satan’s captives free ( Lk 4:18; Eph 4:8)."

Quotation is taken from:

The "Christus Victor" View of the Atonement - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

God accomplished many things by having his Son become incarnate and die on Calvary. Through Christ God revealed the definitive truth about himself (Rom 5:8, cf. Jn 14:7-10); reconciled all things, including humans, to himself (2 Cor 5:18-19; Col 1:20-22), forgave us our sins (Ac 13:38; Eph 1:7)...

reknew.org

Very good.

 

[TribulationSigns]

There is no doubt that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and bring to light, God's eternal plan for humanity. The scriptures confirm it. However, there is no scripture that confirms that satan was bound at the cross.

Yes, I did. Matthew 12:28-29 and answer the questions:

#1. Who is the Strong man?
#2. What is his house?
#3. Who is it that comes to bind him?
#4. What are the possessions in the strong man's house that he wants to Spoil (take by conquest)?
#5. What "MUST" be done first, before that can happen?

When you have answered those questions nobly, it's absolute! There can be no other rational conclusion but that:

#1. Satan is the strong man.
#2 His house is the adversarial principality.
#3. Christ is the one who came to bind him and take the possessions or prisoners in his principality
#4, the Church were those possesions being held captive or in bondage by Satan
#5. Christ is he who had to First, bind Satan!

If indeed Christ had cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then obviously it was the power of God manifest in Him, and thus unambiguously demonstrated that He was the prophesied Messiah, the Son of David who was to come and establish that Kingdom. The same Son of David of whom the multitude spoke in the first instance. It was indeed for this reason the Pharisees had accused Christ of having a devil. Consider wisely and in context.

Matthew 12:22-24

• "Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
• And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the Son of David?
• But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils."

But indeed Christ had cast out devils by the Spirit of God and that meant that the Messiah, the Son of David had been manifest, and His Kingdom had come unto them. It is in this "context" that Christ speaks about how He must first bind Satan. When Christ cast Satan out of individuals, He was 'signifying' by this that the Kingdom of God had come (Matthew 12:28). For the kingdom of God is placed within men (Luke 17:21) by Christ coming to dwell where Satan once was, it's not an earthly kingdom. And the Spoiling of Satan's Kingdom or principality is the principle of this parable. His goods, (The Spoil) are all of the disciples, and all of us who were unsaved (in captivity to Satan) and deceived of Satan, who are now set free in Christ. This parable is a clear picture that God gives us to illustrate Christ is the Messenger of the Covenant that came down from heaven to establish the Kingdom of God by plundering the house of Satan, and setting free those who sat in the darkness thereof. And God tells us, first Christ had to bind the strong man, and only then could He spoil his house. This is not incidental or insignificant language. Scripture must be defined by scripture, not by Theologians. When we do that, it is clear the binding of satan took place at the cross.
Again in Mark chapter 3. The Lord Jesus has the blasphemous accusation brought against Him that He was working through Satan. Christ asks them, "how can He battle against the Kingdom of Satan, if He is of the Kingdom of Satan? A House divided against itself cannot stand! And He declares:

Mark 3:26

• "And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except He FIRST Bind the strong man; and then He will spoil his House."

These are God's parables and God puts parables in His Word not to be "ignored", but to be considered and discerned. Some people close their eyes and ears to the truth because of their Church tradition, but this is unrighteousness of the highest order. God says, "hear His parable!" Christ is the one who has come to conquer this strong man's (Satan's) kingdom, and God says, in order for Him to spoil Satan's house, Satan first had to be bound. I didn't say that, A theologian didn't say that, my Church didn't say that, God said it! We merely bear faithful witness or testimony to what God said. Satan had to be bound in order for Christ to spoil (take by conquest) the captivity. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Unfortunately, Amillennialists have ignored several scriptures that show that satan is yet to be bound

Prove us with Scripture you claimed that Satan has NOT yet bound. Show us.

and instead, rely on conjecture and fantasy to support their assumptions Just as you have presented numerous passages that neither explicitly affirm nor even allude to satan being bound - this is always the tactic of Amillennialists.

Foolish accusations. We have shown you the Scripture yet you DENY it. Period.

There is nothing in scripture that says satan is bound twice

Of course not.

, i.e., presently bound and released (I don't even know when Amillennialists believe he's released) only to be bound again after Armageddon according to Rev 20:1-3.

Satan was bound ONCE at the Cross. God bound Satan as long as He is building His Church. Once God finished secured all of His Elect through the testimony of Two Witnesses, The testimony of Two Witnesses is FINISHED and Satan came out of the bottomless pit to be used by God as a judgment upon the unfaithful congregation prior to Second COming. Simple as that.
If you deny that Satan was bound at the cross or even today, you are not saved today. That is why CHrist needs to bind Satan FIRST in order for you, me and others for the past 2,000 years to be saved, per Matthew 12:28-29.

Praying for you!

 

[Trivalee]

I did. Read again and again until the Holy Spirit reveal the Truth to you. What part of Matthew 12:28-29 that I explained with bullet points do you NOT understand?!

Sorry, I've read it several times and the passage doesn't say what you assume it does.