The Reprobate Doctrine

[Saint Steven]

Why follow Christs instuction and make disciples if 100% people will be converted in the end regardless anyway? That's why I reject your view, it undermines the teachings of Christ.

That would be like teaching your children not to brush their teeth because the dentist will give them new teeth eventually. You wouldn't want to undermine the ultimate work of dentistry, right?

Nope. Life goes better with Christ. Both in this age and the one to come.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[The Righterzpen]

For those that we call "the elect", this happens before physical death. (like those Christ preached to for three days before his resurrection) Fo

Christ didn't preach to anyone on earth in the 3 days before the resurrection. If you're speaking of the "spirits in prison" those who were elect were still elect before they died.

All who are redeemed are elect and only those who are elect are redeemed.

For all others, this happens after physical death.

So... are you elect? Do you have to wait until you die and endure the wrath of God before you will be saved?

For those saved after physical death, they have to endure the wrath of God.

This makes no sense at all! If you claim Jesus paid for everyone; yet people end up in the lake of fire. The point of being cast into the lake of fire is to pay for one's sin. One is there to pay for one's own sin because Christ didn't pay for that one's sin. The Scripture is very specific that we can not pay for our own sin. This is why you'd never get out of the lake of fire if you end up there.

For this reason I put less weight on predestination and more weight on a free-will decision.

Yet can't you see that in your assessment of this the "free will decision" makes not difference anyways.

If Christ paid for someone's sin and they are in hell to pay for their own sin; that's not justice. If Christ atoned for someone who's also in the lake of fire atoning for their own sin, what was the point of Christ's atonement? That would mean that part of what He'd done was in vain.

You still haven't addressed the question I posed to you about if people are eventually restored out of the lake of fire; why is it spoken of in the Scripture to begin with? Besides the point that NOWHERE in Scripture does it ever say anyone gets out of the lake of fire. If your doctrine is true, don't you think God would say that somewhere in the Bible?

And I believe that those who have never heard of Christ may be treated the same as those in the realm of the dead that Christ preached to before his resurrection. When he "led captivity captive".

Those who have never heard the written revelation of Scripture, have still witnessed the gospel through the creation. To those who hold that truth in unrighteousness; they are indeed condemned because "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven.."

To those who have not the law yet obey it "they are a law unto themselves"; they see truths such as His eternal Godhead and power in the creation; so they have not been left without a witness. (is what that verse actually means). Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. Anyone who "believes by faith" is accounted unto them for righteousness even if they have not the written Scripture.

That awakening is still via the operation of the Holy Spirit; which is only possible because Christ was the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world". All those who are atoned for, come to some understanding of God before they die; even if they don't have the actual written Scripture. They see God in the creation. That's why He set it up that way.

And here is part of the reason why the creation itself is delivered from that curse. If you'd want to use the words "general atonement" to apply to your cat and dog; then that would fit. They are part of the redemption plan. They are not on the same standing as humanity though.

I still believe that those of us who are believers are positionally different than those who do not believe. Having crossed over from death to life we will not be judged in the same way.

So, the atonement applies to believers now, but unbelievers later?

I'm sorry but that is not Biblically sound!

 

[Saint Steven]

Christ didn't preach to anyone on earth in the 3 days before the resurrection. If you're speaking of the "spirits in prison" those who were elect were still elect before they died.

All who are redeemed are elect and only those who are elect are redeemed.

If they were the "elect":
- why were they in prison?
- why did Christ need to preach to them?
- why were they taken captive to escape?

The text says they were "those who were disobedient long ago... in the days of Noah..."

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

 

[Saint Steven]

So... are you elect? Do you have to wait until you die and endure the wrath of God before you will be saved?

I have salvation in the here and now. By grace through faith, not by works. I have nothing to boast about in that regard. I have received the work of the atonement on my behalf. Everyone will eventually. Every tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

 

[Saint Steven]

This makes no sense at all! If you claim Jesus paid for everyone; yet people end up in the lake of fire. The point of being cast into the lake of fire is to pay for one's sin. One is there to pay for one's own sin because Christ didn't pay for that one's sin. The Scripture is very specific that we can not pay for our own sin. This is why you'd never get out of the lake of fire if you end up there.

It seems we agree on the facts, but not on the conclusions. IMHO
- "Jesus paid for everyone" Right.
- "people end up in the lake of fire" Right.
- "The point of being cast into the lake of fire is to pay for one's sin" Nope. Wrong conclusion.
- "One is there to pay for one's own sin because Christ didn't pay for that one's sin" Nope. Wrong conclusion.
- "The Scripture is very specific that we can not pay for our own sin" Right.
- "This is why you'd never get out of the lake of fire if you end up there." Nope. Wrong conclusion.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yet can't you see that in your assessment of this the "free will decision" makes not difference anyways.

No. It makes ALL the difference.

If you were thrown into the Lake of Fire until you made Jesus Christ Lord (by your own free will), how long would it take you? You can stay as long as you like.

 

[Saint Steven]

If your doctrine is true, don't you think God would say that somewhere in the Bible?

Not if the Damnationists were in charge of translating the Bible. They had an agenda, which you inherited with the book. They had no intention of promoting Universalism. Which is why the replaced "age-during" with "eternal". Only God is eternal. Nothing else.

 

[Saint Steven]

Those who have never heard the written revelation of Scripture, have still witnessed the gospel through the creation.

Really? The gospel? Better read Romans chapter one again. Not what it says.
Creation reveals that there is a God, but says nothing about the gospel.

 

[Saint Steven]

To those who have not the law yet obey it "they are a law unto themselves"; they see truths such as His eternal Godhead and power in the creation; so they have not been left without a witness. (is what that verse actually means). Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. Anyone who "believes by faith" is accounted unto them for righteousness even if they have not the written Scripture.

Now you are onto something. But what law are they obeying since they do not have the law? The God-given law of human conscience. Which sometimes accuses them and at other times even defends them. Are they lost or saved? I think salvation is more varied they we understand. There's more to say on this topic. (Matt.25 basis for salvation?)

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[Saint Steven]

All those who are atoned for, come to some understanding of God before they die; even if they don't have the actual written Scripture. They see God in the creation. That's why He set it up that way.

Are you claiming that there is salvation in crediting God for creation?

 

[Saint Steven]

So, the atonement applies to believers now, but unbelievers later?

The atonement applies to everyone who receives it.

You remember the story in Exodus of the original Passover, right?
Hopefully you agree that this is a picture of the atonement.

A spotless lamb is slain. (the price) Then the blood is applied. (atonement received) Then the death angel passes over. (death is avoided)

The price paid is of no personal value until it is applied.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:11-12
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

 

[Saint Steven]

You still haven't addressed the question I posed to you about if people are eventually restored out of the lake of fire; why is it spoken of in the Scripture to begin with? Besides the point that NOWHERE in Scripture does it ever say anyone gets out of the lake of fire. If your doctrine is true, don't you think God would say that somewhere in the Bible?

That's a good question.
Early church fathers about the time our Bible was being canonized (late fourth century) were teaching on the subject. For some reason none of that ended up in our Bible. I wonder why?

Ambrose, (340-397 A.D.):
“The mystery of the Incarnation is the salvation of the entire creation… as it is elsewhere said, “the whole creation shall be set free from the bondage of corruption”.… So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive. The subjection of Christ consists not in few, but in all (becoming obedient)… Christ will be subject to God in us by means of the obedience of all…( then) when vices having been cast away, and sin reduced to submission, one spirit of all people, in one sentiment, shall with one accord begin to cleave to God, then God will be All in All”—Ambrose. De fide lib. v. 7. (16)

Jerome, (340-420 A.D.)
“When the Psalmist says, ‘Your enemies, O God, shall perish,’… every man who has been Your enemy shall hereafter be made Your friend; the man shall not perish, the enemy shall perish.”—Jerome. In Ps. xcii. 9. (22)

Titus, (364 A.D.) “Bishop of Bostra.“
The very pit itself is a place of torments and of chastisement, but is not eternal. It was made that it might be a medicine and help to those who sin. Sacred are the stripes which are medicine to those who have sinned. “Therefore we do not complain of the pits (of hell)—abyssis—but rather know that they are places of torment, and chastisement, being for the correction (amendment of those who have sinned.”—Titus Adv. Man. lib. i. 32. (26)

Diodorus, (378 A.D.) “Bishop of Tarsus…
“For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual… according to the amount of malice in their works.… The Resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing not only to the good but also to the evil.”—Diodorus. ASSEM. Bibl. Or. iii. p. 324. (28)

Theodoret, (423 A.D.) “Bishop of Cyrus…
“After His anger, God will bring to an end His judgment; for He will not be angry unto the end, nor keep His wrath to eternity.”—Theodoret. In Is. xiii. (35) “He shews here the reason for punishment, for the Lord, the lover of men, torments us only to cure us, that He may put a stop to the course of our iniquity.”—Theodoret. Hom in Ezech. cap. Vi. vers 6. (36)

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There are easily another dozen early church fathers who did not hold to "eternal hell" despite Augustine’s pagan insertion of it into Catholic doctrine. But the Catholic Church saw fear as a way to control people and "eternal hell" was acquired as a primary tool.

 

[FineLinen]

Why follow Christs instuction and make disciples if 100% people will be converted in the end regardless anyway? That's why I reject your view, it undermines the teachings of Christ.

Dear St. Paul: please be advised you are undermining the teachings of Christ.

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance–the forgiveness of our offences–so abundant was God’s grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it–the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you…”

 

[The Righterzpen]

If they were the "elect":
- why were they in prison?
- why did Christ need to preach to them?
- why were they taken captive to escape?

Not everyone who died as atoned for, on in the OT side of the cross was allowed access into heaven. So they were there awaiting the completion of the atonement.

What did Christ preach to them? He would have preached to them that God will not forsake one who has no sin (making a reference to Himself) and that He'd died to atone for sinners and therefor they had hope of being released from their prison.

he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

"to the imprisoned spirits" and "to those who ere disobedient long ago"; appear from the descriptors of the text, to be two different groups of people.

The "imprisoned spirits" being those who had received and obeyed what ever written Scripture at the time they'd possessed. "Imprisoned" means "those who were standing watch. They are actually awaiting deliverance. Are these "post flood people"? Possibly?

"Those who were disobedient" means to have grown obstinate and refused to be persuaded up until the point the flood actually came. (These people would have all died before the flood came; between Adam and Noah.) But they were still waiting on God. (They became impatient.) These would have been those anywhere on the globe who were atoned for who were outside of the revelation of written Scripture prior to the flood. Maybe they were "Chinese", or "Celts", or "Native Americans" or whom ever. Prior to the flood, the land mass of earth was one continent.

The first written accounts of any stories that resemble Scripture are found in ancient Summer. They are "outlines" of the flood and the book of Job. Job lived post flood, but before Abraham. There's a reference in Job about "when men of the north lived in caves" which is probably a reference to post flood ice age. Was Job before or after the Tower of Babel? I don't really know?

As far as we can tell from the Scripture; The flood was the first revelatory instance after Adam, where God had instructed a "prophet" to proclaim pending judgement. Noah spent 120 years building the ark. The flood occurred about 1000 years prior to "midpoint" in earth's history.

If you line up patriarchs' ages from Genesis "end on end"; except where we have "and called his name"..... (which denotes a direct father son relationship) we have roughly 6000 years between Adam and the flood. There's about 3000 years between the flood and Abraham. There's 2000 years between Abraham and Christ and 2000 years between Christ and now (2033 AD actually). Which makes the earth a few years past 13000 years old; going by Bible chronology.

Apparently this is conveying there is a difference between pre and post flood world as it applied to revelation, as to how people understood God. This makes some contextual sense if we consider that pre flood there would have been dinosaurs and much more hostile and dangerous natural environment with "monstrous" animals running around. Most humans would have been cave dwellers / hunter gatherers and run in small packs "like animals". So their understanding of the world and how God operated would have been quite different than people who lived in domesticated communities post flood.

Every tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord.

That statement though does not denote that they all do so out of love or gratitude. Verse 21 of Psalm 139 the Messiah speaks of hating His enemies with a perfect hatred and He will continue to "snap them off" because of their disobedience and they are forced to consider diligently the one they compassed about to kill.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear St. Paul: please be advised you are undermining the teachings of Christ.

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance–the forgiveness of our offences–so abundant was God’s grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it–the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you…”

Dear St. Paul: You cannot be serious. Are you aware that you are "undermining the teachings" of Christ Jesus?

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

I will draw, drag off in power, impel all mankind unto Myself. -The Lord Lesous-

 

[The Righterzpen]

Early church fathers about the time our Bible was being canonized (late fourth century) were teaching on the subject. For some reason none of that ended up in our Bible. I wonder why?

The canon of Scripture had been completed by the end of the 1st century because all the Scripture had been written. The miraculous signs the Jews sought disappeared as part of the closing of the canon. This is what's eluded to (and you see it more clearly in the Greek) when Paul talks about prophecies will fail, tongues will cease and knowledge will vanish away.

All these people you are quoting were roughly 400 years post Christ; when knowledge vanishes away. And they are preaching universal atonement? This was also about the time the Talmud was completed. I don't know if there's a connection; but it would be interesting to see if there is. All these people teaching something the apostles and Christ clearly did not teach.

The historical evidence to the Jew was the destruction of Jerusalem. Those that disobeyed were destroyed by the Roman army. Christ told them; they'd never see His kingdom. "So I swear in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest". Hebrews 3

There are easily another dozen early church fathers who did not hold to "eternal hell" despite Augustine’s pagan insertion of it into Catholic doctrine. But the Catholic Church saw fear as a way to control people and "eternal hell" was acquired as a primary tool.

What do we know of church fathers prior to 300 AD though?

These fellows apparently believed in eternal wrath; for it's very evident in what they write.

What Did Early Christians Believe About Hell? | Cold Case Christianity

 

[renniks]

Dear St. Paul: You cannot be serious. Are you aware that you are "undermining the teachings" of Christ Jesus?

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

I will draw, drag off in power, impel all mankind unto Myself. -The Lord Lesous-

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

If you continue, you will be saved. The final word always comes after the "but" or the "if"

 

[The Righterzpen]

It seems we agree on the facts, but not on the conclusions. IMHO

No, I wouldn't even say that.

- "Jesus paid for everyone" Right.

No, I do not believe in universal atonement. I believe Jesus only atoned for the elect.

- "people end up in the lake of fire" Right.

People end up there, and no where in Scripture does it say they ever get out.

- "The point of being cast into the lake of fire is to pay for one's sin"

Why would people be condemned to the lake of fire if it has nothing to do with their sin? If they are there to be purged; what are they there to be purged from?

- "One is there to pay for one's own sin because Christ didn't pay for that one's sin"

Yes, that's limited atonement.

- "The Scripture is very specific that we can not pay for our own sin"

And why would the Scripture say that, if all have been atoned for?

- "This is why you'd never get out of the lake of fire if you end up there."

You have no Scriptural basis to say anyone ever gets out of the lake of fire.

If you were thrown into the Lake of Fire until you made Jesus Christ Lord (by your own free will), how long would it take you? You can stay as long as you like.

Here is another point we depart on. I don't believe man's will is free. If I was thrown into the lake of fire; I'd never get out.

Not if the Damnationists were in charge of translating the Bible.

You have access to interlinear Bibles. You can go look this up. You admit yourself that your theology isn't consistent; because "eternal life" doesn't actually mean "eternal life" either.

Which is why the replaced "age-during" with "eternal". Only God is eternal. Nothing else.

So you believe the new heavens and new earth will not be "without end". What would be the point in creating something to redeem that comes to an end at some point anyways? That makes no sense either.

Really? The gospel? Better read Romans chapter one again. Not what it says.
Creation reveals that there is a God, but says nothing about the gospel.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even
His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is different than "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven".

So yes, the witness of creation does testify to the eternal redemption plan as well as the wrath of God. What do you think spring is about? Why do things "come back to life" in the spring? That wasn't an accident.

Now you are onto something. But what law are they obeying since they do not have the law? The God-given law of human conscience. Which sometimes accuses them and at other times even defends them. Are they lost or saved? I think salvation is more varied they we understand. There's more to say on this topic. (Matt.25 basis for salvation?)

Out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let all things be established.
Witness #1 - human conscience
Witness #2 - the creation
witness #3 - the written scripture.

Are you claiming that there is salvation in crediting God for creation?

The salvation plan can be recognized by observing the creation.

The atonement applies to everyone who receives it.

And only the elect receive it.

You remember the story in Exodus of the original Passover, right?
Hopefully you agree that this is a picture of the atonement.

A spotless lamb is slain. (the price) Then the blood is applied. (atonement received) Then the death angel passes over. (death is avoided)

The price paid is of no personal value until it is applied.

And what happened to the 1st born of all who did not have the blood on their door posts? They all perished.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I am the buyer (propitiation / one who makes payment) for all the stoves in the world. This does not mean that I purchase every stove that has ever been manufactured. This only means that of all the stoves that are purchased; I'm the one who bought them.

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

This doesn't include those who don't believe.

This shocks me; how long have you believed this universal atonement doctrine now?

 

[Waitingforgood]

There were homosexuals who came to Christ, right? Paul listed several sins, including homosexuality, in 1 Corinthians, I think, and said “such were some of you”, but they had been washed and sanctified.

Now, there are certain things such as in Hebrews 6 and 10 that put people beyond salvation, but I’m not sure if Romans 1 is describing a cutting off from God’s Grace-I’ve always thought of General depravity when I’ve seen it.

 

[FineLinen]

"Now that we are set right with God by means of this sacrificial death, the consummate blood sacrifice, there is no longer a question of being at odds with God in any way. If, when we were at our worst, we were put on friendly terms with God by the sacrificial death of his Son, now that we’re at our best, just think of how our lives will expand and deepen by means of his resurrection life! Now that we have actually received this amazing friendship with God, we are no longer content to simply say it in plodding prose. We sing and shout our praises to God through Jesus, the Messiah!

The Death-Dealing Sin, the Life-Giving Gift

You know the story of how Adam landed us in the dilemma we’re in—first sin, then death, and no one exempt from either sin or death. That sin disturbed relations with God in everything and everyone, but the extent of the disturbance was not clear until God spelled it out in detail to Moses. So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn’t sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God.but Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

Yet the rescuing gift is not exactly parallel to the death-dealing sin. If one man’s sin put crowds of people at the dead-end abyss of separation from God, just think what God’s gift poured through one man, Jesus Christ, will do!

There’s no comparison between that death-dealing sin and this generous, life-giving gift. The verdict on that one sin was the death sentence; the verdict on the many sins that followed was this wonderful life sentence. If death got the upper hand through one man’s wrongdoing, can you imagine the breathtaking recovery life makes, sovereign life, in those who grasp with both hands this wildly extravagant life-gift, this grand setting-everything-right, that the one man Jesus Christ provides?

Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life! One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn’t, and doesn’t, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it’s sin versus grace, grace wins hands down. All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that’s the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life—a life that goes on and on and on, world without end. -The Message-