The replacement

[Lion King]

outws / οὕτως in 11:26 means 'in this way' so that end of verse reads

"in this way all Israel shall be saved"

not

"then all Israel will be saved"

outws never means 'then'...usually 'oun' or 'tote' in NT means 'then'

Are you saying the physical descendants of Abraham are not going to be saved? The ones whose hearts haved been hardened because of their disobedience?

Does it mean that the LORD has rejected Israel?

 

[Incariol]

Are you saying the physical descendants of Abraham are not going to be saved? The ones whose hearts haved been hardened because of their disobedience?

Does it mean that the LORD has rejected Israel?

Jews are certainly welcome to convert to the true faith and be counted in the ranks of the new Israel, the Church.

Sent from my iPod touch using Forum Runner

 

[brinny]

I grew up in a church that believed in replacement theology and in my opinion it turns God into a complete fraud. God promised all manner of things to Israel, and God keeps his promises. It is to Israel he promised these things, not the Church, and although the church has been grafted INTO Israel this does not mean that Israel has disappeared nor that God's promises to her are null and void.

To claim that the church is the replacement of Israel is to claim that God lies and doesn't keep his promises. This is not in keeping with the character of God.

Amen.

 

[brinny]

Fact #1--The Israelites are God’s chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6-9; Romans 11:28).

Fact #2--God promised His chosen people that they would enjoy a glorious kingdom under their Messiah (Daniel 7:13-14; Isaiah 2:1-5; 9:6-7; 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-8; 31:31-37; 33:14-16; Luke 1:32-33).

Fact #3--The nation Israel (at least the great majority in the nation) rejected their Messiah when He came to earth (John 1:11; Matthew 12:22-24; Matthew 21:33-46; 27:22, 23, 25; John 19:15; Acts 22:22; 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15).

Fact #4--When the church first began it was made up entirely of Jewish believers (Acts chapter 2, the Day of Pentecost). But gradually this changed. As the years went by more and more Gentiles entered the church and less and less Jews (we see this as we travel through the book of Acts and also as we span the years of church history). Today (and this has been true for most of church history) the church is made up almost entirely of Gentile believers. We thank God for Jews who have believed on Christ as Messiah and as Saviour, but their numbers are few. The nation as a whole is blind though, thankfully, there are a few exceptions (see Romans 11:25).

Romans 9

Way of Life Encyclopedia
ISRAEL

(having power with God). The nation chosen and created by God to preserve His truth in the world and to prepare the way for Christ's coming. The nation is named after Jacob, who was renamed Israel by God (Genesis 32:28). God called Abraham (Genesis12:1-3). Abraham had Isaac (Genesis 21). Isaac had Jacob (Genesis 25). Jacob had twelve sons who became the twelve tribes of Israel (Genesis 49). To this special people, God gave a Land (Palestine) so they could live separated from the heathen peoples in order to fulfill God's purposes. God delivered the Scriptures to the world through Israel (Romans 3:1-2). He also gave the Savior to the world through Israel (Romans 9:4-5). Temporarily the nation Israel has been set aside in the purposes of God. Today He is creating a special body of saved people composed both of Jews and Gentiles (Acts 15:14-16; Ephesians 3). After this present work is accomplished, God will again resume His purposes with the nation Israel and will fulfill all the O.T. promises and prophecies concerning them (Romans 11:25-27)

Amen.

 

[Lion King]

Amen.

I love your signature...nice.

 

[brinny]

I love your signature...nice.

Thank you and God bless you, brother in Christ and son of the Most High God.

*Lifting this thread up to Abba as we speak...Father shine Your Light of truth, in the name of Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of You, the living God, the God of the living, amen.*

 

[yedida]

I'm going through my own battle of faith and it's very scary. What is left within me and still reigns is so very happy to see so many of you raise up Israel, as God's chosen people, even today.
There are so many who think that God has "changed his mind and now considers the church as his chosen people" and this is just so wrong. The church is very precious in His eyes, but so is Israel.

 

[brinny]

I'm going through my own battle of faith and it's very scary. What is left within me and still reigns is so very happy to see so many of you raise up Israel, as God's chosen people, even today.
There are so many who think that God has "changed his mind and now considers the church as his chosen people" and this is just so wrong. The church is very precious in His eyes, but so is Israel.

Christians are grafted ONTO Israel, God's beloved. God places a love for Israel in our hearts, praise His name. God is moving. This verse i find precious:

"Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders." ~Isaiah 49:22

In my mind's eye, when i read this, there is much rejoicing, during the carrying thereof. God is good He is even working as we speak, to bring this about, praise His name. Father may it be so, in Jesus name, amen.

 

[John 07]

Are you saying the physical descendants of Abraham are not going to be saved? The ones whose hearts haved been hardened because of their disobedience?

Does it mean that the LORD has rejected Israel?

No, I wouldn't say all of Abraham's physical descendents
will be rejected, for example Paul, Peter, John etc and all
Jewish people that believe in Christ for their salvation.
hmm, there's a couple verses...

Ro 11:
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(the unbelief in 23 is, IMO, unbelief in Christ for their salvation)...

But the houtws of vs.26 'in this way' means to me that while the Gentiles are being grafted in there is also a trickle (hopefully surges) of Jewish people that are also grafted in, and that this grafting in of Jews and Gentiles is the way that God restores all Israel which occurs 'until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in'.

Once the olive tree is completely filled with elect Jews and Gentiles, ie, 'all Israel' (the graftees no longer Jew/Gentile) then it seems that end-times events would start to kick in. I don't see a big national conversion including eg, Shas ultra-orthodox haredi Jews (who, oh my, very don't like Christianity, yikes) near end-times. I'm not saying that it's impossible for God to do so, he could open the eyes and hearts of even hardened haredim to see and accept Christ Jesus and graft them into the olive tree. Hope I made sense...

 

[sheina]

Jews are certainly welcome to convert to the true faith and be counted in the ranks of the new Israel, the Church

For Dispensational Israelology, the conclusion is that the Church is never called, and is not, a “spiritual Israel” or a “new Israel.” The term “Israel” is either used of the nation or the people as a whole, or of the believing remnant within. It is never used of the Church in general or of Gentile believers in particular.

The Israel of God of Galatians 6:16

 

[CalmRon]

No, I wouldn't say all of Abraham's physical descendents
will be rejected, for example Paul, Peter, John etc and all
Jewish people that believe in Christ for their salvation.
hmm, there's a couple verses...

Ro 11:
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(the unbelief in 23 is, IMO, unbelief in Christ for their salvation)...

But the houtws of vs.26 'in this way' means to me that while the Gentiles are being grafted in there is also a trickle (hopefully
surges) of Jewish people that are also grafted in, and that this grafting in of Jews and Gentiles is the way that God restores all Israel which occurs 'until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in'.

Once the olive tree is completely filled with elect Jews and Gentiles, ie, 'all Israel' (the graftees no longer Jew/Gentile) then it seems that end-times events would start to kick in. I don't see a big national conversion including eg, Shas ultra-orthodox haredi Jews (who, oh my, very don't like Christianity, yikes) near end-times. I'm not saying that it's impossible for God to do so, he could open the eyes and hearts of even hardened haredim to see and accept Christ Jesus and graft them into the olive tree. Hope I made sense...

That made perfect sense to me. With God the only Israel is the one that believes it's not as though the Jews were shut away permanently but the way of salvation for is not based on a national identity or a common bloodline but in Christ. I am thoroughly convinced that God sees the Jews just as he sees the other nations as outside of 'Israel' - Gentiles.

 

[RND]

For Dispensational Israelology, the conclusion is that the Church is never called, and is not, a “spiritual Israel” or a “new Israel.” The term “Israel” is either used of the nation or the people as a whole, or of the believing remnant within. It is never used of the Church in general or of Gentile believers in particular.

The Israel of God of Galatians 6:16

More proof then that most dispensationalist's have things in error.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

For Dispensational Israelology, the conclusion is that the Church is never called, and is not, a “spiritual Israel” or a “new Israel.” The term “Israel” is either used of the nation or the people as a whole, or of the believing remnant within. It is never used of the Church in general or of Gentile believers in particular.

The Israel of God of Galatians 6:16

Forgive me...

 

[RND]

The generations following the blood line of the Israelites of old...

Or the adopted members of God's household by faith?

 

[RND]

I kinda think when Paul speaks of Israel in Romans, he's probably talking about the physical descendants of Abraham; the ones whose hearts have been hardened by the LORD due to their disobedience. As of right now, most of Israel are enemies of the Gospel, but they too will share in God's mercy; when the prophecy is fulfilled.

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.” Romans 11:25-27

Just as El Shaddai saved the Gentiles, so shall it be with the children of Israel.

I think the message is very clear and that those who accept Christ as Lord and Savior by faith are true Israelites.

 

[RND]

How can there be an Isreal if there are no Jews?

Easy. Jacob wasn't a Jew, neither was Abraham. Abraham was a gentile.

The name Israel means "overcomer" and those that are "in Christ" are indeed overcomers through faith in Him. Don't have to be a physical Jew to believe in that.

Besides don't you know that a Jew is not one by physical circumcision but spiritual? See Romans 2:26-29

 

[RND]

Fact #1--The Israelites are God’s chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6-9; Romans 11:28).

Fact #2--God promised His chosen people that they would enjoy a glorious kingdom under their Messiah (Daniel 7:13-14; Isaiah 2:1-5; 9:6-7; 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-8; 31:31-37; 33:14-16; Luke 1:32-33).

Fact #3--The nation Israel (at least the great majority in the nation) rejected their Messiah when He came to earth (John 1:11; Matthew 12:22-24; Matthew 21:33-46; 27:22, 23, 25; John 19:15; Acts 22:22; 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15).

Fact #4--When the church first began it was made up entirely of Jewish believers (Acts chapter 2, the Day of Pentecost). But gradually this changed. As the years went by more and more Gentiles entered the church and less and less Jews (we see this as we travel through the book of Acts and also as we span the years of church history). Today (and this has been true for most of church history) the church is made up almost entirely of Gentile believers. We thank God for Jews who have believed on Christ as Messiah and as Saviour, but their numbers are few. The nation as a whole is blind though, thankfully, there are a few exceptions (see Romans 11:25).

Romans 9

Way of Life Encyclopedia
ISRAEL

(having power with God). The nation chosen and created by God to preserve His truth in the world and to prepare the way for Christ's coming. The nation is named after Jacob, who was renamed Israel by God (Genesis 32:28). God called Abraham (Genesis12:1-3). Abraham had Isaac (Genesis 21). Isaac had Jacob (Genesis 25). Jacob had twelve sons who became the twelve tribes of Israel (Genesis 49). To this special people, God gave a Land (Palestine) so they could live separated from the heathen peoples in order to fulfill God's purposes. God delivered the Scriptures to the world through Israel (Romans 3:1-2). He also gave the Savior to the world through Israel (Romans 9:4-5). Temporarily the nation Israel has been set aside in the purposes of God. Today He is creating a special body of saved people composed both of Jews and Gentiles (Acts 15:14-16; Ephesians 3). After this present work is accomplished, God will again resume His purposes with the nation Israel and will fulfill all the O.T. promises and prophecies concerning them (Romans 11:25-27)

What do you do with the fact that Jesus said the House of Judah was left desolate?