The replacement

[sheina]

The Church has never, is not, nor ever will be, Israel.

Romans chapters 9-11 are vitally important chapters in rightly understanding the place of Israel in God's program.

 

[RND]

The Church has never, is not, nor ever will be, Israel.

Romans chapters 9-11 are vitally important chapters in rightly understanding the place of Israel in God's program.

Who is Israel?

 

[RND]

For the Orthodox Christian, the very blood that you are talking about is found in The Holy Eucharist.

Forgive me...

Gotta ring that bell first!

 

[visionary]

Who is Israel?

The generations following the blood line of the Israelites of old...

 

[from scratch]

So then you agree God saves people, including the Jews, individually and not corporately! Good.

Then you must certainly agree that "all Israel" is the entire body of believers whether the be:


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ah yes but we're not Isreal. There is no Scripture to indicate we're infact Isreal. The church is the Bride of Christ - not Isreal. Isreal is God the Father's wife and He never gives her to His only begotten Son Jesus.

 

[from scratch]

Do you believe in a "silent, secret" rapture where the church is taken away and everyone else is "left behind."

In a way yes. First I don't think the unregenerate will hear the trumpet. Second it happens in the twinkling of an eye. That is fast. It is so fast many won't even realsize it happened and will take at least several minutes for the disbelief to subside. Somewon't know or understand for maybe hours. Then the horror will begin.

 

[visionary]

Gotta ring that bell first!

You mean like this bell..

The directors of the excavation on behalf of the Antiquities Authority, archaeologists Eli Shukron and Professor Ronny Reich of Haifa University, said after the finding, “The bell looked as if it was sewn on the garment worn by a man of high authority in Jerusalem at the end of the Second Temple period

Archaeologists Discover High Priest's Bell? - - News - Israel National News

 

[RETS]

sheesh, my vote brought the yes's (#1) up to equal with the no's (#2).
Who woulda thought!! (And page 1 sounded so refreshing!!! Boy was I fooled.)

No kidding. So was I. I actually made the comment to someone that perhaps I ought to spend more time in the Theology section, because it seemed a less caustic environment than Politics. Heh.

Won't make that mistake again.

For the Orthodox Christian, the very blood that you are talking about is found in The Holy Eucharist.

Forgive me...

Okay- Scriptural backing for that. I personally don't believe it, but I have no issues with the belief itself.

Furthermore, I didn't mention blood, though I did mention the sacrifice. That sacrifice was the means of Salvation for the world as a whole, are we agreed? The death, resurrection and ascension served as the total package?

Gotta ring that bell first!

That seemed like a personal barb to me- Was I wrong?

 

[Lion King]

So then you agree God saves people, including the Jews, individually and not corporately! Good.

Then you must certainly agree that "all Israel" is the entire body of believers whether the be:


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I kinda think when Paul speaks of Israel in Romans, he's probably talking about the physical descendants of Abraham; the ones whose hearts have been hardened by the LORD due to their disobedience. As of right now, most of Israel are enemies of the Gospel, but they too will share in God's mercy; when the prophecy is fulfilled.

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.” Romans 11:25-27

Just as El Shaddai saved the Gentiles, so shall it be with the children of Israel.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I kinda think when Paul speaks of Israel in Romans, he's probably talking about the physical descendants of Abraham; the ones whose hearts have been hardened by the LORD due to their disobedience. As of right now, most of Israel are enemies of the Gospel, but they too will share in God's mercy; when the prophecy is fulfilled.

Just as El Shaddai saved the Gentiles, so shall it be with the children of Israel.

All the Jews have to do is accept Jesus as Lord, King and Savior and they will be saved just as the "gentiles" are saved.
Course it might benefit the unbelieving non-Christian Jews to read the book of Revelation as the Christian jews and gentiles do

2 Corin 6:18 And I shall be to ye as a father and ye shall be to Me as sons and daughters is saying Lord Almighty/pantokratwr <3841>.

Reve 19:6 And I hear as sound of a vast throng and as sound of many waters and as sound of strong thunders saying "allelouia! that reigns Lord the God the Almighty"/panto-kratwr <3841>.

 

[sheina]

Who is Israel?

Fact #1--The Israelites are God’s chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6-9; Romans 11:28).

Fact #2--God promised His chosen people that they would enjoy a glorious kingdom under their Messiah (Daniel 7:13-14; Isaiah 2:1-5; 9:6-7; 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-8; 31:31-37; 33:14-16; Luke 1:32-33).

Fact #3--The nation Israel (at least the great majority in the nation) rejected their Messiah when He came to earth (John 1:11; Matthew 12:22-24; Matthew 21:33-46; 27:22, 23, 25; John 19:15; Acts 22:22; 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15).

Fact #4--When the church first began it was made up entirely of Jewish believers (Acts chapter 2, the Day of Pentecost). But gradually this changed. As the years went by more and more Gentiles entered the church and less and less Jews (we see this as we travel through the book of Acts and also as we span the years of church history). Today (and this has been true for most of church history) the church is made up almost entirely of Gentile believers. We thank God for Jews who have believed on Christ as Messiah and as Saviour, but their numbers are few. The nation as a whole is blind though, thankfully, there are a few exceptions (see Romans 11:25).

Romans 9

Way of Life Encyclopedia
ISRAEL

(having power with God). The nation chosen and created by God to preserve His truth in the world and to prepare the way for Christ's coming. The nation is named after Jacob, who was renamed Israel by God (Genesis 32:28). God called Abraham (Genesis12:1-3). Abraham had Isaac (Genesis 21). Isaac had Jacob (Genesis 25). Jacob had twelve sons who became the twelve tribes of Israel (Genesis 49). To this special people, God gave a Land (Palestine) so they could live separated from the heathen peoples in order to fulfill God's purposes. God delivered the Scriptures to the world through Israel (Romans 3:1-2). He also gave the Savior to the world through Israel (Romans 9:4-5). Temporarily the nation Israel has been set aside in the purposes of God. Today He is creating a special body of saved people composed both of Jews and Gentiles (Acts 15:14-16; Ephesians 3). After this present work is accomplished, God will again resume His purposes with the nation Israel and will fulfill all the O.T. promises and prophecies concerning them (Romans 11:25-27)

 

[Lion King]

Do you believe in a "silent, secret" rapture where the church is taken away and everyone else is "left behind."

I believe in Jesus Christ.

Silent, secret rapture?

To be honest, I don't even know what you are talking about...

Did Jesus not spring up out of the Loins of Jesse? Of course He did. All of Isaiah is about Jesus!

You and I will have to disagree on the obvious. Jesus Christ is indeed the root that came our of Jesse.

How you can possiblly argue against the obvious is both beyong me and most Christians here at CF:

Isaiah 11 - The Branch and Root of Jesse

Are we still talking about the same thing here? Are we still discussing about the roots of Israel?

Abraham is the holy root of Israel, this is the sole reason why the descendants of Israel will be saved- because the root is holy.

Where did the nation of Israel sprung from?

Jesus is the frirst fruit as well.

Yes, Jesus Christ is the first fruit of the harvest (ressurection of the dead to be precise), but this is a different first-fruit. Paul in Romans was simply using the term "first-fruit", in relation to the patriarches of Israel, the first people to be set apart by the LORD.

Um, God was the founder of Israel.

Who is the father of Israel? Is it not Abraham?

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found?" Romans 4:1

"They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39

Don't you understand yet? Abraham is our father, because of his faith, Israel (including the Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ) is counted as holy before the LORD. He is the root of the olive tree that the gentiles have been grafted into.

"And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead," Romans 4:22-24

However, the natural branches (most of Israel) of the olive tree have been broken off because of their unbelief, but will be easily grafted back in when they turn back to God.

Who is Israel? Is it Jews and Jews alone or the whole body of believers? The Epistle of Romans is clear that it is the whole body of believers. If not one Jew on earth ever accepted Jesus God could still raise up children from stones!

Israel is the child of Abraham.

Children of the Living God that were not His people are now called "His people" through Christ and Christ alone. Fortunately this is a consistent pattern in scripture, Read the book of Ruth which is a picture of how exactly the gentiles are saved.

Do you think the LORD has rejected His chosen people (Israel- the physical descendants of Abraham) now?

Won't the LORD save them, just as He did the Gentiles?

All Israel is saved!

No. Not all of Israel is saved, yet. As of right now, most of Israel is an enemy of the Good News.

Take note: Israel ain't just Jews but anyone and everyone that accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and no amount of insisting that Romans 11 doesn't mean that will change the fact Jesus Christ accepts all those into the family of God that love Him.

Yes, that is also true.

 

[from scratch]

I kinda think when Paul speaks of Israel in Romans, he's probably talking about the physical descendants of Abraham; the ones whose hearts have been hardened by the LORD due to their disobedience. As of right now, most of Israel are enemies of the Gospel, but they too will share in God's mercy; when the prophecy is fulfilled.

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.” Romans 11:25-27

Just as El Shaddai saved the Gentiles, so shall it be with the children of Israel.

 

[ProScribe]

I'm unfamiliar with "Replacement Theology" because I wasn't aware of who taught it or its origins.

 

[from scratch]

So then you agree God saves people, including the Jews, individually and not corporately! Good.

Then you must certainly agree that "all Israel" is the entire body of believers whether the be:


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

How can there be an Isreal if there are no Jews?

 

[RETS]

I'm unfamiliar with "Replacement Theology" because I wasn't aware of who taught it or its origins.

Justin Martyr is a good one to start with. For all that I agree with in his writings, this is one that I absolutely do not. Mainly because it is the weakest argument he crafted, and only vaguely connected to Scripture.

 

[John 07]

Who is Israel?

1) whelp there might be a nation that calls itself Israel in the Middle East
2) but then also there is the Israel OF GOD (Gal 6:16)
which is comprised of Christ-believing Jews and Christ-believing
Gentiles....ie Christians

And don't even say (this is addressed to anyone not you particularly RND) the last 'kai' in 6:16 can't be ascensive 'even', but if you do say, please give real Greek reasons, for I'd like to know

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Justin Martyr is a good one to start with. For all that I agree with in his writings, this is one that I absolutely do not. Mainly because it is the weakest argument he crafted, and only vaguely connected to Scripture.

I will have to read him some day.
I did find a thread and post that mentioned "replacement theology" from an Eastern Orthodox point of view, which I agree with.
Looks like a rather fascinating thread, but it is closed......

http://www.christianforums.com/t3884860-2/#post27855651
Writings of Justin Martyr

Snip quote:

.................The astute reader will note that I have herein distinguished Hebrew and Jewish. Many Messianics and their advocates use the term Jew to refer to those Hebrews who began the Church interchangeably with the modern Rabbinics. In so doing, they reveal their bias, which is that Rabbiics are somehow more like the Apostles than we modern Christians.

How insidious such conflations are, how asp-like in their poison bite upon the hands of those who died and suffered that we might be One Body
Once and for all: We Orthodox Christians are no less 'Jews' than are Rabbinics. That is not Replacement Theology, for RT suggests that God has no place in His economy for the Rabbinics. We Orthodox also await the full salvation of Israel- IN THE BODY...................

 

[John 07]

Romans 11 says that the natural branches (Israel) will be grafted back in when they turn back to Jesus Christ. This will only happen after the full number of gentiles comes to Christ and only then will the LORD's mercy descend upon Israel.

outws / &#959;&#8021;&#964;&#969;&#962; in 11:26 means 'in this way' so that end of verse reads

"in this way all Israel shall be saved"

not

"then all Israel will be saved"

outws never means 'then'...usually 'oun' or 'tote' in NT means 'then'

 

[sheina]

1) whelp there might be a nation that calls itself Israel in the Middle East
2) but then also there is the Israel OF GOD (Gal 6:16)
which is comprised of Christ-believing Jews and Christ-believing
Gentiles....ie Christians

And don't even say (this is addressed to anyone not you particularly RND) the last 'kai' in 6:16 can't be ascensive 'even', but if you do say, please give real Greek reasons, for I'd like to know

An excellent article on the "Israel of God (Galatians 6:16):

The Israel of God of Galatians 6:16

I would post the article, but it is too long.

Here are the first two paragraphs:

The Israel of God of Galatians 6:16​

The purpose of this section is to present a dispensational view of Galatians 6:16, the only passage produced by all Covenant Theologians as evidence that the Church is the spiritual Israel, or that Gentile believers become spiritual Jews. The verse does not prove their case. The passage reads:

And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.​

The Book of Galatians is concerned with Gentiles who were attempting to attain salvation through the law. The ones deceiving them were Judaizers, who were Jews demanding adherence to the Law of Moses. To them, a Gentile had to convert to Judaism before he qualified for salvation through Christ. In verse 15 Paul states that the important thing for salvation is faith, resulting in the new man. He then pronounces a blessing on two groups who would follow this rule of salvation through faith alone. The first group is the “them,” the Gentile Christians to and of whom he had devoted most of the epistle. The second group is the “Israel of God.” These are Jewish believers who, in contrast with the Judaizers, followed the rule of salvation by faith alone. Covenant Theologians must ignore the primary meaning of kai [the conjunction which is usually translated “and”] which separates the two groups in the verse in order to make them both the same group.