The replacement

[Frogster]

The great equalizer verse. The jews can thank gentiles too.

11;31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Be careful there OrthodoxyUSA, otherwise you are in for the suprise of your life once our LORD comes for His people....

Why the personal post Lion King? Are you incapable of addressing the post and must resort to calling the salvation of another suspect because of their Apostolic Christian beliefs? I'm not Jewish enough for you, and I'm going to wake up in a bad place?

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

RND, just read Romans 11.

With the way you think Israel is Christ, you definitely need to read it.

I don't think the apostate Jews of today would see it that way

 

[Lion King]

Why the personal post Lion King? Are you incapable of addressing the post and must resort to calling the salvation of another suspect because of their Apostolic Christian beliefs? I'm not Jewish enough for you, and I'm going to wake up in a bad place?

Forgive me...

You mis-understood me OrthodoxyUSA, I was not questioning your salvation or anything like that, just your beliefs. The "apostolic christian church" you speak highly of so much about teach something entirely different to what the Father teaches. Partaking in the LORD's supper does not forgive anyone their sins nor does it offer salvation.

Forgive me.

 

[Lion King]

I've read it many times. God doesn't save people based on blood He saves people based on their willingness to be saved, to obey, to listen and to follow.

Just because one is born Jewish and lives in Israel no more guarantees their salvation than Buddha can.

Romans says some native branches were "broken off". Have you found one verse that says those native branches were grafted back in? I haven't.

You say you've read Romans 11 many times, but somehow I find that hard to believe given your responses so far.

Romans 11 says that the natural branches (Israel) will be grafted back in when they turn back to Jesus Christ. This will only happen after the full number of gentiles comes to Christ and only then will the LORD's mercy descend upon Israel.

 

[Lion King]

Who is Israel? If you accept Jesus you are an Israelite by adoption.


Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,



Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


By adoption. Everyone.

Yes, but the natural children of Israel who have turned away from the LORD will be grafted back into vine (Jesus Christ) once they have accepted the LORD again just as their ancestors did. You see, Israel will only be saved for the sake of their patriarches (if the root is holy, the branches will be holy too), God will never reject the chosen people He foreknew before the world began.

In time, Israel will believe in Jesus Christ again, just as their father Abraham did. When that time comes, we will all be one in Jesus Christ and heirs to the promise.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You mis-understood me OrthodoxyUSA, I was not questioning your salvation or anything like that, just your beliefs. The "apostolic christian church" you speak highly of so much about teach something entirely different to what the Father teaches. Partaking in the LORD's supper does not forgive anyone their sins nor does it offer salvation.

Forgive me.

And thus you question my salvation.

You are welcome to your opinion. I do not share it.

Forgive me...

 

[RND]

You say you've read Romans 11 many times, but somehow I find that hard to believe given your responses so far.

Romans 11 says that the natural branches (Israel) will be grafted back in when they turn back to Jesus Christ.

Is this done individually or corporately? I agree all Israel will be saved. But let's examine all scripture in light of what Romans 11 says. John says God can raise up other children. Paul tells us a Jew is one spiritually not by blood (circumcised heart vs, circumcised foreskin).

This will only happen after the full number of gentiles comes to Christ and only then will the LORD's mercy descend upon Israel.

You obviously believe one who that simply because one is born a Jew and in Israel they will be saved. This is an outlook that is very popular with the Zionist/Dispensationalist mindset. It's also unscriptural.

 

[RND]

Yes, but the natural children of Israel who have turned away from the LORD will be grafted back into vine (Jesus Christ) once they have accepted the LORD again just as their ancestors did.

And when will this happen? Many a Dispensationist believes this will occur only after the "silent, secret" rapture of the church. Is this your view?

You see, Israel will only be saved for the sake of their patriarches (if the root is holy, the branches will be holy too), God will never reject the chosen people He foreknew before the world began.

Jesus is the root and branch. No one else.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

In time, Israel will believe in Jesus Christ again, just as their father Abraham did. When that time comes, we will all be one in Jesus Christ and heirs to the promise.

They have this opportunity to believe today! They have had the same opportunity to believe since the cross as everyone has. Your theology makes God out to be a respecter of persons, that He will save Israelites apart from gentiles and that, from the Gospels and Epistles themselves is simply untrue.

 

[razeontherock]

There is the thought that "Israel" should scripturally be replaced with the term "church" on all the good blessings God lays on "Israel"'s head.. and all the curses the Israelites can keep.

My question to you is.. where do you stand on the replacement theology?

When I first encountered the term "replacement theology," (not long ago) I talked to an old friend about it. I mentioned I thought it sounded kinda prejudiced. He replied he didn't know there was such a thing as being "a little prejudiced!"

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
(Romans 3:2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

I think that settles it. I see nothing to the contrary, to wipe that out; rather, I see that bond intentionally preserved.

 

[visionary]

When I first encountered the term "replacement theology," (not long ago) I talked to an old friend about it. I mentioned I thought it sounded kinda prejudiced. He replied he didn't know there was such a thing as being "a little prejudiced!"

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
(Romans 3:2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

I think that settles it. I see nothing to the contrary, to wipe that out; rather, I see that bond intentionally preserved.

Documents from around the time of Paul state that some Jews believed obedience to the law was rewarded on the final day with salvation: "The one who does righteousness stores up life for himself with the Lord" (Psalms of Solomon, c. 50 B.C.). "Miracles, however, will appear at their own time to those who are saved by their works" (2 Baruch, c. A.D. 100). There are a number of examples like this. Paul's understanding of justification makes sense, then, as a criticism of law observance as the means to eternal life (see Rom. 3:20). ... and this is good.. but as you see, so do I that there is nothing that wipes out the Law, but its rightful place with respect to the God whom we worship, does this obedience to His law reveal.

 

[RETS]

And thus you question my salvation.

You are welcome to your opinion. I do not share it.

Forgive me...

Forgive me, but what does the questioning of your beliefs have to do with the absolute Salvation Yeshua afforded you at the cross; and which you have accepted; and which is the one thing "not touched by moth or decay?"

Seems to me that our beliefs ought to be questioned, if only so that our understanding of our salvation be continually strengthened.

If our God cannot hold up to questioning, if He cannot withstand scrutiny, then our idea of "God" is far, far too small and limiting.

 

[Lion King]

Are you doing this on purpose , RND? Are you taking my words and twisting them thereby establishing a different argument altogether which you go on to annihilate without mercy? For example:

Exhibit 1

I clearly gave an answer that one is not saved just because of his blood but because of faith in Jesus Christ only. See below.

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: Romans 11:22-26

Your reply to my original statement and I quote:

Ah, I see. So you didn't quote that. No problem. Now here's my question....Who is Israel? Is one saved just because they were born in Israel and have Jewish blood?

Just because one is born in the modern, secular nation-state of Israel with "Jewish" blood coursing through their veins doesn't mean they are saved. Far from it.

To which you again misrepresented my position on this argument to mean something else entirely different.

Exhibit 2

I've read it many times. God doesn't save people based on blood He saves people based on their willingness to be saved, to obey, to listen and to follow. Just because one is born Jewish and lives in Israel no more guarantees their salvation than Buddha can.

I tried again to state my position on the matter, in clear terms i might add...

You say you've read Romans 11 many times, but somehow I find that hard to believe given your responses so far.

Romans 11 says that the natural branches (Israel) will be grafted back in when they turn back to Jesus Christ. This will only happen after the full number of gentiles comes to Christ and only then will the LORD's mercy descend upon Israel.

Exhibit 3

...but as usual, you went on to further pummel your strawman until it stopped twitching. Classical strawman approach.

You obviously believe one who that simply because one is born a Jew and in Israel they will be saved. This is an outlook that is very popular with the Zionist/Dispensationalist mindset. It's also unscriptural.

 

[Lion King]

And when will this happen? Many a Dispensationist believes this will occur only after the "silent, secret" rapture of the church. Is this your view?

It will happen when it happens, Im no prophet.

..but it WILL happen. As it was written in the Holy Scriptures, so shall it be.

Jesus is the root and branch. No one else.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Do the above passages you have quoted say anything about Jesus Christ being the root of Israel?

Jesus Christ is not the root of Israel, but He is the shoot that came from the root of Jesse and his son, David (Jesus Christ is also the source of David). Now, Jesus Christ is the vine that sustains life to the good olive tree, which is cultivated by the Father.

The root of Israel are the patriarches of the Holy nation of God:

"For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches." Romans 11:16

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc are the founders of Israel and such, are it's roots. This was an honor given to them by the LORD, to be the roots of God's Holy-nation.

They have this opportunity to believe today! They have had the same opportunity to believe since the cross as everyone has. Your theology makes God out to be a respecter of persons, that He will save Israelites apart from gentiles and that, from the Gospels and Epistles themselves is simply untrue.

There you go again with that strawman argument. How many times do have I post this?

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:25-29


God will turn Israel away from ungodliness when the time comes, just as He did with the Gentiles. You claim to have read Romans many times before, but it clearly seems as if you are struggling to understand what the LORD is saying in regards to Israel.

 

[Frogster]

Documents from around the time of Paul state that some Jews believed obedience to the law was rewarded on the final day with salvation: "The one who does righteousness stores up life for himself with the Lord" (Psalms of Solomon, c. 50 B.C.). "Miracles, however, will appear at their own time to those who are saved by their works" (2 Baruch, c. A.D. 100). There are a number of examples like this. Paul's understanding of justification makes sense, then, as a criticism of law observance as the means to eternal life (see Rom. 3:20). ... and this is good.. but as you see, so do I that there is nothing that wipes out the Law, but its rightful place with respect to the God whom we worship, does this obedience to His law reveal.

What wiped out the law was the cross, where the whole old creation, with law living in Adam, with all it's sin went. Abolished, in the flesh of Jesus. Are there indicatives in scripture, are there do's and dont's? Yes, but what is the transcendent way?

What is the doctrine that set free from sin? Rom 6:17. Ahhhh, now we are talking mean-n-potatoes, not pertinent verses written not as a teaching, but just relative to a certain event. No, don't worship demons! But what is the most excellent way?

One died for all, all died, not counting transgressions anymore, 2 cor 5.

 

[RND]

Are you doing this on purpose , RND? Are you taking my words and twisting them thereby establishing a different argument altogether which you go on to annihilate without mercy? For example:

Exhibit 1

I clearly gave an answer that one is not saved just because of his blood but because of faith in Jesus Christ only. See below.





Your reply to my original statement and I quote:











To which you again misrepresented my position on this argument to mean something else entirely different.

Exhibit 2





I tried again to state my position on the matter, in clear terms i might add...






Exhibit 3

...but as usual, you went on to further pummel your strawman until it stopped twitching. Classical strawman approach.

So then you agree God saves people, including the Jews, individually and not corporately! Good.

Then you must certainly agree that "all Israel" is the entire body of believers whether the be:


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[RND]

It will happen when it happens, Im no prophet.

..but it WILL happen. As it was written in the Holy Scriptures, so shall it be.

Do you believe in a "silent, secret" rapture where the church is taken away and everyone else is "left behind."

Do the above passages you have quoted say anything about Jesus Christ being the root of Israel?

Did Jesus not spring up out of the Loins of Jesse? Of course He did. All of Isaiah is about Jesus!

Jesus Christ is not the root of Israel, but He is the shoot that came from the root of Jesse and his son, David (Jesus Christ is also the source of David). Now, Jesus Christ is the vine that sustains life to the good olive tree, which is cultivated by the Father.

You and I will have to disagree on the obvious. Jesus Christ is indeed the root that came our of Jesse.

How you can possiblly argue against the obvious is both beyong me and most Christians here at CF:

Isaiah 11 - The Branch and Root of Jesse

The root of Israel are the patriarches of the Holy nation of God:

"For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches." Romans 11:16

Jesus is the frirst fruit as well.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc are the founders of Israel and such, are it's roots. This was an honor given to them by the LORD, to be the roots of God's Holy-nation.

Um, God was the founder of Israel.

There you go again with that strawman argument. How many times do have I post this?

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:25-29


God will turn Israel away from ungodliness when the time comes, just as He did with the Gentiles. You claim to have read Romans many times before, but it clearly seems as if you are struggling to understand what the LORD is saying in regards to Israel.

Who is Israel? Is it Jews and Jews alone or the whole body of believers? The Epistle of Romans is clear that it is the whole body of believers. If not one Jew on earth ever accepted Jesus God could still raise up children from stones!


Hsa 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.


Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Children of the Living God that were not His people are now called "His people" through Christ and Christ alone. Fortunately this is a consistent pattern in scripture, Read the book of Ruth which is a picture of how exactly the gentiles are saved.


Rth 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, [or] to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people [shall be] my people, and thy God my God:

All Israel is saved!


Take note: Israel ain't just Jews but anyone and everyone that accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and no amount of insisting that Romans 11 doesn't mean that will change the fact Jesus Christ accepts all those into the family of God that love Him.

 

[Frogster]

I mean, what does israel, have to do with the present temple, being erected?

Amen, saved jews, become a part too. Peter is saying what Paul said. They can't reject the stone, and be in the church.




1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture:

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,

“The stone that the builders rejectedhas become the cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

 

[yedida]

sheesh, my vote brought the yes's (#1) up to equal with the no's (#2).
Who woulda thought!! (And page 1 sounded so refreshing!!! Boy was I fooled.)

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Forgive me, but what does the questioning of your beliefs have to do with the absolute Salvation Yeshua afforded you at the cross; and which you have accepted; and which is the one thing "not touched by moth or decay?"

For the Orthodox Christian, the very blood that you are talking about is found in The Holy Eucharist.

Forgive me...