The replacement

[Frogster]

It says that the law can only be kept in the Spirit and not in the flesh. One can keep the law by the Spirit.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The carnal, read: unconverted mind can't keep God's law, it's against God's law and even worse it isn't subject (willing to submit) to God's law.

Without the Spirit it is impossible to obey Him.

See verse 5. It doesn't abrogate the law it says how the law is followed.

So because Jesus filled the law full means we don't have to?

Or one could look at this and say if you were more complete in the Spirit you would eat swine.



That's your opinion. Why did the Council at Jerusalem prohibit gentiles from eating strangled meats or blood which were both "Jewish" laws?



Died to self? I'm a work in progress.

You mean do I work at not destroying the gift that God gave me?

Grace. Am I free to break God's moral law?

To which we sin less and less and less and less.... It also means we learn to listen to the good advise of our Heavenly Father.

Free to righteousness? No law to follow? Do pardoned people from prison have a right to continue to break the law?
No doubt. In that we should walk as He walked and I don't recall He ate ham sammies.

So then you are saying we are free to do whatever we want as long as we claim to be following Christ. No obligation. I get it. I don't agree with it, but I get it.

Hmmmm..Moral law? Where does sin have dominion?

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

 

[Frogster]

I am not sure you saw my point. You are the one insisting on the carnal commandments, being free from them meant only that they werent bound to them any long. They are still carnal ordinances.

Well save for your weaker brothers conscience sake (whose eating doesnt come from faith) and who regards them (still) as unclean. If he is distressed over your consumption of them then flaunting a pork chop in his face is not walking toward him in love. In that respect I have regard, not much for the food itself, but my brother.

So if you regard something as unclean for you it is unclean for you



Then why stop circumcision? I hear it actually keeps things cleaner down there (seems a little of each if you ask me)



1Cr 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

The health of ones conscience appears here (and then anothers conscience) not thine (even if he said it was offered to an idol)

Im not good at fetching verses without keywords but thats ok bro, Im not going to be going back and forth here for long



The Love of God in Christ Jesus sure did and I dont see him going on about foods for the belly.

Now brother, given I have had these back and forth conversations for many years and I am very much disinterested in going back and forth on foods, I will let others who are less weary of it then I am continue on with you while I step back out of this conversation.

I dont like to wrangle back and forth for debate sake, specially over food, if you deem something unclean then for you (no doubt it is) abide by your conscience then, and I will abide by mine not to offend you concerning what you chose to refrain from. Hows that?

You can have the last word here brother, forgive me on not wanting to go on with this

heheheh..yep, but the strange thing is, as I am sure you will agree, rom 14 was written about the weak, but when people are weak years later, sounds like a problem.

So the food abstinence people are..

14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.


Strong Paul knew..what we know.

14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

 

[Fireinfolding]

heheheh..yep, but the strange thing is, as I am sure you will agree, rom 14 was written about the weak, but when people are weak years later, sounds like a problem.

So the food abstinence people are..

14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.


Strong Paul knew..what we know.

14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

I like the way yours words it there Frog

Decorated it for you

 

[CalmRon]

Wow this thread went crazy off topic! Basically the major point on either side whether one takes the words of the prophets concerning 'Israel' literally or if they were mean as deeper spiritual allegories, that and how one understands the words of Paul.

 

[Hentenza]

So do the refusals to accept the truth!

I accepted the truth a long time ago. Is not your "truth". I am not putting the monkey back on my back.

 

[Frogster]

I like the way yours words it there Frog

Decorated it for you

Thank you.

 

[Frogster]

Wow this thread went crazy off topic! Basically the major point on either side whether one takes the words of the prophets concerning 'Israel' literally or if they were mean as deeper spiritual allegories, that and how one understands the words of Paul.

u r right. Best not to let it go off track, out of respect for Visionary. Best to not turn it into a food fight, sabbath law thing again. Glad u posted this.

 

[Hentenza]

This throwing in the Jews, like they were set apart to do the impossible, doesn't make sense either.

All the Jews needed to do was have faith. The rest would have worked out just fine. They found that it was hard following the law so they worshiped idols and other gods instead. Even at the time of Jesus they were still hypocrites by teaching one thing and doing something else. The Jews were set apart as God's people. They still are, however, they apostatized when they rejected the Messiah.

 

[Frogster]

All the Jews needed to do was have faith. The rest would have worked out just fine. They found that it was hard following the law so they worshiped idols and other gods instead. Even at the time of Jesus they were still hypocrites by teaching one thing and doing something else. The Jews were set apart as God's people. They still are, however, they apostatized when they rejected the Messiah.

True. But..Romans 9 morphed from a carnal defintion in 9:3, kindred according to the flesh, to the spiritual in 6-8. Sure, they are all called too, but often in the phrase. "they are God's people", often denotes a superiority, that is of the flesh, and somehow always puts the Jew on some kind of higher status, where many Christians, (I don't mean you), see themselves subordinant to the Jew, after all, "they are God's people". If you know what I mean. In other words, In Christ, in Abraham, all that stuff is now over. No special status.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I voted yes because the UN and most nations recognise Israel as a nation, and so do I .

 

[ivebeenshown]

All the Jews needed to do was have faith. The rest would have worked out just fine. They found that it was hard following the law so they worshiped idols and other gods instead. Even at the time of Jesus they were still hypocrites by teaching one thing and doing something else. The Jews were set apart as God's people. They still are, however, they apostatized when they rejected the Messiah.

So the Christ-rejecting Jews/Israelites don't have the Holy Spirit, yet they are somehow belonging to God, when Scripture says that if any man doesn't have the Spirit, he is none of Christ's?

 

[Blueforest]

God was finished with Israel in 70 A.D. when He allowed the Romans to sack and destroy the city of Jerusalem. He took the kingdom and gave it to the Gentiles because the Jews killed our Lord and wanted nothing to do with Him. 'The cornerstone' caused them to stumble and be ground into dust, since they refused to believe. People don't want to hear it, but it's the truth. The end.

 

[RETS]

Interesting it is, to me, that your "God" would choose before the foundations of the world were laid to make a promise to a nation of people, lead them and lead lead them on, before turning around and saying, "Well, since you did exactly what I knew you would, ____ you." (Fill in the blank with the pejorative of your choice.) It suggests that your "God" is far too small.

 

[Lion King]

God was finished with Israel in 70 A.D. when He allowed the Romans to sack and destroy the city of Jerusalem. He took the kingdom and gave it to the Gentiles because the Jews killed our Lord and wanted nothing to do with Him. 'The cornerstone' caused them to stumble and be ground into dust, since they refused to believe. People don't want to hear it, but it's the truth. The end.

The LORD didn't reject Israel.

"I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Romans 11:1-4

God has remained loyal and still loves Israel even though most of the Jews rejected and persecuted the prophets and Jesus Christ, all because of the promise He gave to Abraham and because of the righteousness of the patriarches of Israel (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David etc). They are still His people because God's gifts and call can never be withdrawn.

"For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches." Romans 11:16

 

[Lion King]

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." Revelation 5:5

 

[Lion King]

Is the Root Jesus or Isreal?

Gardener = The Father
Vine = Jesus Christ
Root = Abraham and the patriarches of Israel
Natural branches= Israel
Wild branches = Gentiles

 

[visionary]

Gardener = The Father
Vine = Jesus Christ
Root = Abraham and the patriarches of Israel
Natural branches= Israel
Wild branches = Gentiles

We are definitely a wild bunch ... no wonder God chose the Israelites to represent His people, faults and all, they were the best of the bunch of human families.. at least they were keepers of the oracles of God.. one thing they got right.. had some righteousness about them to even have a few who got excellent marks from God and are recorded in scripture for their righteousness.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

What does it mean the abide in Christ? It is the very partaking of The Holy Eucharist. Where else can we do that? Surely we know that Christ desired to draw us together...??? Some will say... what does The Holy Eucharist do? And I would turn and point to all those who are gathered.

Nonbelievers are cast into the fire. The only thing that counts is are those who became Christian and no longer Jew.

The Gentiles are grafted in, becoming Christian and no longer Gentile.

The only thing remaining is Christian.

The Church contains all of these. The Church is what Christ established. The Church becomes part of heaven when The Holy Eucharist is being prepared and served.

The Church... both Earthly and Heavenly are Israel.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Pro 14:3 In the mouth of the foolish [is] a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.

Forgive me...

 

[visionary]

What does it mean the abide in Christ? It is the very partaking of The Holy Eucharist. Where else can we do that? Surely we know that Christ desired to draw us together...??? Some will say... what does The Holy Eucharist do? And I would turn and point to all those who are gathered.

Nonbelievers are cast into the fire. The only thing that counts is are those who became Christian and no longer Jew.

The Gentiles are grafted in, becoming Christian and no longer Gentile.

The only thing remaining is Christian.

The Church contains all of these. The Church is what Christ established. The Church becomes part of heaven when The Holy Eucharist is being prepared and served.

The Church... both Earthly and Heavenly are Israel.

Forgive me...

Replacements in almost everything here.:o