The removal of the Cross in San Diego

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Petronius

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I've heard on radio that a Federal Court that the City of San Diego has to remove a big Cross erected in the memory of soldiers victims of the Korean War and that in the name of the Church separation from State.
Do you have details, when and who started this ? And if this is really true, actually ?
 

Dewi Sant

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http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20060504-9999-1n4soledad.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194240,00.html




This is very sad and it isn't a seperation between Church and State but rather a confrontation between atheist and Christian.....which could lead to any other religion.



Does state have to be atheist?
In England we have representatives of all the major religions in our government. The Archbishop of Canterbury plays an important role in the house of Lords.

Here is the crest of my town, Preston. Preston was founded by Priests (used to be called Prieststown) and still retains its outwardly Christian crest.
The local football club uses the crest too.
marsden.gif

preston-north-end.jpg
 
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Khaleas

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Ok, so he doesn't like the close, but that doesn't change the fact that he still lives in SAN Diego!!!
Hypocrite...

I'm sure they'll start attack the MD stateflag soon. State was founded by Catholics so I'm sure someone will wake up one morning and find themself offended. :mad:
 
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Khaleas said:
Ok, so he doesn't like the close, but that doesn't change the fact that he still lives in SAN Diego!!!
Hypocrite...

The cities St. Louis, St. Petersburg and St. Paul will soon have to change their names to Mr. Louis, Mr. Petersburg and Mr. Paul respectively.
 
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Khaleas

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Theophorus said:
The cities St. Louis, St. Petersburg and St. Paul will soon have to change their names to Mr. Louis, Mr. Petersburg and Mr. Paul respectively.

Yes, and the city of New York, doesn't fit my description of New... I now demand it will be called Old York.

Whatever happened to the majority rule???
 
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Khaleas

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Theophorus said:
The cities St. Louis, St. Petersburg and St. Paul will soon have to change their names to Mr. Louis, Mr. Petersburg and Mr. Paul respectively.

And you know that's sexist... What about Mrs Paul, or maybe Miss Paul... :p or for the divorcees or don't want to tell, Ms Paul...
 
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Petronius

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ramesses said:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20060504-9999-1n4soledad.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194240,00.html




This is very sad and it isn't a seperation between Church and State but rather a confrontation between atheist and Christian.....which could lead to any other religion.



Does state have to be atheist?
In England we have representatives of all the major religions in our government. The Archbishop of Canterbury plays an important role in the house of Lords.

After reading that report I wonder when that guys who started this crazy think will ask to remove crosses from military cemeteries....
 
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ufonium2

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When Reggie White (pro football player and minister) died, the football team at his (also my) alma mater wore black cross patches on their uniforms in remembrance of him. Guess what? This was deemed offensive to atheists.

I guess you could make an argument that one of those veterans being commemorated in San Diego would have been offended by the cross, although I really doubt it. But how can you get offended if individuals want to remember another indiviual in a way that incorporates that individual's religion?

We don't have the right not to be offended. It's ridiculous.
 
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HandmaidenOfGod

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At the risk of being stoned, I must say that for a Federally funded memorial, a cross is an inapropriate memorial for War Veterans.

Jews and non-Christians fought side by side with Christians in the Korean war. Should not their beliefs be honored?

It would be one thing if the Memorial included a cross, star of David, Islamic Crescent, etc., but to exclude the Memorial to only Christian veterans who died for their country is wrong.

The seperation of Church and state means that the same freedom we are given to attend Divine Liturgy every week and wear a St. Andrew's cross is the same freedom that allows people to sleep in on Sunday, or go to a Shabbot service on Friday.

A cross as the only symbol for a Federally funded War Memorial is wrong and insensitive to the soldier's who died who did NOT share the same beliefs as us, but died to preserve our right to practice said beliefs.

If this was a war memorial on private Church property that was funded by a private religious group, that would be one thing. But this is taxpayer dollars we're talking about. That means the Jewish, Muslim, and Atheist taxpayers of San Diego had to pay to put a cross up. That's wrong.

Stone me if you want, but that's how I feel.

~Maureen
 
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Khaleas

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I agree to a point... My problem is the fact that they are doing this for ONE person. Where are all the others, the non-Christians and the Jews who fought along-side the Christians? That's right, they aren't offended... many of them see it as 'theirs' too.

But I'm pretty sure the state flags displaying crosses and the letterhead stating SAN Diego is also paid by federal/state money and it's going to cost A LOT of tax money to change that when someone starts screaming.
One of the fundementals of this country is that majority rules and I just think people are BECOMING a bit too easily offended by what not. Becoming being the right word, because they didn't oppose it their whole life, it suddenly got on the agenda (although this has been in the courts for a while, but many of the things have been fine for a LONG time and now suddenly it's offensive). What would be the horrible outcry if someone would say Atheism is offensive and if you're Atheist you're communist. I think the respect needs to be mutual which it is not at this time. There is a separation between church and state but there doesn't seem to be one between state and atheism.


HandmaidenOfGod said:
At the risk of being stoned, I must say that for a Federally funded memorial, a cross is an inapropriate memorial for War Veterans.

Jews and non-Christians fought side by side with Christians in the Korean war. Should not their beliefs be honored?

It would be one thing if the Memorial included a cross, star of David, Islamic Crescent, etc., but to exclude the Memorial to only Christian veterans who died for their country is wrong.

The seperation of Church and state means that the same freedom we are given to attend Divine Liturgy every week and wear a St. Andrew's cross is the same freedom that allows people to sleep in on Sunday, or go to a Shabbot service on Friday.

A cross as the only symbol for a Federally funded War Memorial is wrong and insensitive to the soldier's who died who did NOT share the same beliefs as us, but died to preserve our right to practice said beliefs.

If this was a war memorial on private Church property that was funded by a private religious group, that would be one thing. But this is taxpayer dollars we're talking about. That means the Jewish, Muslim, and Atheist taxpayers of San Diego had to pay to put a cross up. That's wrong.

Stone me if you want, but that's how I feel.

~Maureen
 
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HandmaidenOfGod

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While I agree that our society has become a bit too PC at times, I think in this case it's good they are removing it.

I can also see your point about the words SAN Diego being paid for by tax payer dollars, but remember, San Diego was founded by a Catholic Spanish Monarchy over 400+ years ago. A government that forced its subjects to follow the Catholic Church. (Sometimes under great duress.) While I don't know the exact date the war memorial was put up, it has to have been within the past fifty years under a democratic government that does not impose religion on its citizens.

In regards to this case being brought on by one person, our constitution clearly states that all men are created equal. This means that the needs and beliefs of a minority are just as important to the needs and beliefs of the majority. While the case may have only been brought on by one person, that doesn't mean that he was the only one being offended.

Remember, it was the needs of one person in Brown vs. Board of Education that eventually overturned the ruling that 'seperate but equal' is okay.

Never underestimate the power of one.
 
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Petronius

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HandmaidenOfGod said:
At the risk of being stoned, I must say that for a Federally funded memorial, a cross is an inapropriate memorial for War Veterans.

Jews and non-Christians fought side by side with Christians in the Korean war. Should not their beliefs be honored?

It would be one thing if the Memorial included a cross, star of David, Islamic Crescent, etc., but to exclude the Memorial to only Christian veterans who died for their country is wrong.

The seperation of Church and state means that the same freedom we are given to attend Divine Liturgy every week and wear a St. Andrew's cross is the same freedom that allows people to sleep in on Sunday, or go to a Shabbot service on Friday.

A cross as the only symbol for a Federally funded War Memorial is wrong and insensitive to the soldier's who died who did NOT share the same beliefs as us, but died to preserve our right to practice said beliefs.

If this was a war memorial on private Church property that was funded by a private religious group, that would be one thing. But this is taxpayer dollars we're talking about. That means the Jewish, Muslim, and Atheist taxpayers of San Diego had to pay to put a cross up. That's wrong.

Stone me if you want, but that's how I feel.

~Maureen

Yes, there is a lot of logic and there is a good point of view to understand mentalities, or better said new trends in mentality in the USA. IMHO it is too formalistic.
I would understand if the suer was a relative of somebody comemorated, but although it still can be, that was a general comemorative monument. Theer would be something else if a cross would have been put at the individual grave of a Jew or Muslim.
From an other point of view, this is history I do not se a reason to change old monuments. Only the communists did it. From the same point of view, every other simmilar monument must to be modified like this one and one can go far back applying this new "finding".
The fact is that the Atheists do not have any symbol and if they would for instance add Jewish and Muslim symbolsor simmilar, the atheists would still continue to feel offended and ask the removal. And when a neutral monument would be erected, the Christians or others could fel offended and under this rationing, there would have to be defined symbols that would be accepted by everybody ......
It is ridiculous, becuase in a post-communist country like Romania, even most of the communists (except those in official monuments, but these are very few) have crosses at their graves in public graveyards. I saw only once in my life-time a pole with a star at a grave in a cemetery..
As it was already mentioned why not deny San or Saint in names of towns, why not forbid the public use of the word Christmas etc etc? They can even start to ask to be permitted polygamy. Few people atheists included understand that our nowdays morality was shaped by the Christian Faith with all its roots.

By the way: I just read that Tom Cruise is threathened to loose his American citizenship. The reason is not important here, but the way: there is a law of 1843 that if 50000 sign a petition requiring the withdrawal of the citizenship, it will be withdrawn.... I do not think that it would be difficult to find 50000 Christians in the whole USA to ask this for the suer and for the ruling judge... The Cross is really above-denominational....
But this is your yard, you guys in the USA, I am in Europe...
 
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Petronius

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HandmaidenOfGod said:
While I agree that our society has become a bit too PC at times, I think in this case it's good they are removing it.

I can also see your point about the words SAN Diego being paid for by tax payer dollars, but remember, San Diego was founded by a Catholic Spanish Monarchy over 400+ years ago. A government that forced its subjects to follow the Catholic Church. (Sometimes under great duress.) While I don't know the exact date the war memorial was put up, it has to have been within the past fifty years under a democratic government that does not impose religion on its citizens.

In regards to this case being brought on by one person, our constitution clearly states that all men are created equal. This means that the needs and beliefs of a minority are just as important to the needs and beliefs of the majority. While the case may have only been brought on by one person, that doesn't mean that he was the only one being offended.

Remember, it was the needs of one person in Brown vs. Board of Education that eventually overturned the ruling that 'seperate but equal' is okay.

Never underestimate the power of one.

Although non -Amrican so would not mix, I am using this like a study case.
Probably over 40 years ago when the monument was erected: there was a proposal, a comission which filtered projects and a City Council which accepted and voted. I am sure that by that time nobody protested. Why now ? Keep it for monuments to be erected from now on, eventually.
If San Diego was erected 400+ years ago and under undemocratic condition, what about all towns founded after the USA were proclaimed independent and there was freedom....
This is the other side of the excess, opposed to that, when in some schools in the USA (as at least reported here) the evolution theory of Darwin was banned or tried to be banned...
 
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I agree with Maureen in that the United States is Majority Rule but incorporates Minority Rights.

We need to remember that as Orthodox we are the minority. Nearly every year when I was in high school, Orthodox students had to choose between attending services on Good Friday and going to the prom. It was never even considered that there might be something going on that Friday.
We had to be pulled out of wchool to attend any Holy Week services that took place during the day.
Not to mention that when I was little I went to a school that was nearly all Jewish and we talked about Hannukah and watched films about Hannukah rather than talking about Christmas. It is one thing for Catholics or Protestants(who speak with one mind about a lot of social issues despite being many separate denominations) to say we shouldn't worry about the dissenters in the minority. But as Orthodox, we may well suffer the fate of other minorities if we do away with minority rights.
 
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Petronius

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nutroll said:
I agree with Maureen in that the United States is Majority Rule but incorporates Minority Rights.

We need to remember that as Orthodox we are the minority. Nearly every year when I was in high school, Orthodox students had to choose between attending services on Good Friday and going to the prom. It was never even considered that there might be something going on that Friday.
We had to be pulled out of wchool to attend any Holy Week services that took place during the day.
Not to mention that when I was little I went to a school that was nearly all Jewish and we talked about Hannukah and watched films about Hannukah rather than talking about Christmas. It is one thing for Catholics or Protestants(who speak with one mind about a lot of social issues despite being many separate denominations) to say we shouldn't worry about the dissenters in the minority. But as Orthodox, we may well suffer the fate of other minorities if we do away with minority rights.

This issue has nothing to do with Orthodox in peculiar.
 
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Petronius said:
This issue has nothing to do with Orthodox in peculiar.
No it doesn't, but it is an issue of minority rights. I would rather see everyone's rights respected even if I don't agree with them, precisely because I would like my rights as an Orthodox Christian to be respected.
 
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