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The relevance of European and American conceptions of history

agapelove

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It’s an interesting question. I don’t think you can disrupt a culture’s narrative like that however without it leading to some other extreme. That’s where, I think, the nihilistic mentality of the most extreme version of an Antifa type worldview comes from, that kind of blind rage leading to some incoherent vision that it’s all bad and so should just be torn down and - then what? Mandela’s truth and reconciliation was perhaps the most deeply considered approach to a problem of this sort, but that only appears to have lasted as long as there was someone of his character around to oversee it.
Is there a difference between revolutionary and radical? I definitely do not agree with the extreme left but I would much rather land there than end up in the extreme right. I think this generation is especially frustrated because they know they were not taught the full truth, and there exists a lack of trust between the government and people, especially minorities, who are tired of the whitewashed narrative. Some rage is good, just not blind rage. People need to be impassioned and determined, like Lincoln or King who in my mind are comparable to Nelson. They took extremely revolutionary steps to disrupt the narrative. We know what happened to them. Far-right Americans don't seem too open to the idea of national reconciliation. What's achievable is disrupting the narrative starting with education. Erase the white savior narrative, start speaking on the crimes against humanity committed in our past, embrace our accomplishments while being okay with condemning our mistakes. It will take a lot of cooperation and humility.
 
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Tom 1

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Is there a difference between revolutionary and radical? I definitely do not agree with the extreme left but I would much rather land there than end up in the extreme right. I think this generation is especially frustrated because they know they were not taught the full truth, and there exists a lack of trust between the government and people, especially minorities, who are tired of the whitewashed narrative.

People like Lincoln and King who in my mind are comparable to Nelson, took extremely revolutionary steps to disrupt the narrative. We know what happened to them. Far-right Americans don't seem too open to the idea of national reconciliation. What's achievable is disrupting the narrative starting with education. Erase the white savior narrative, start speaking on the crimes against humanity committed in our past, embrace our accomplishments while being okay with condemning our mistakes. It will take a lot of cooperation and humility.

I think the message needs to be more rooted in reality though, as in ‘ordinary people do terrible things’ as opposed to ‘some white people did some terrible things’. It seems that all cultures have this same rose-tinted glasses thing going on, I’ve come across narratives of an idyllic pre colonial Africa which are just not accurate. I got into what turned into quite a heated debate over the common (as far as I’ve been able to find out) use of slave labour in Ancient African cultures, like Egypt, with someone who insisted that the pyramids etc were built by willing volunteers. That’s a bit extreme maybe but the false dichotomy of you guys bad/us guys good is hard to swallow because it simply isn’t real. There has to be both the truth in the broadest sense and the reconciliation, and reconciliation only works, I think, if we all see that we’re all pretty much the same, that our actions and beliefs are guided by circumstance and experience (etc).
 
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Radagast

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There has to be both the truth in the broadest sense and the reconciliation, and reconciliation only works, I think, if we all see that we’re all pretty much the same, that our actions and beliefs are guided by circumstance and experience (etc).

Agreed.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Is there a difference between revolutionary and radical? I definitely do not agree with the extreme left but I would much rather land there than end up in the extreme right. I think this generation is especially frustrated because they know they were not taught the full truth, and there exists a lack of trust between the government and people, especially minorities, who are tired of the whitewashed narrative.

People like Lincoln and King who in my mind are comparable to Nelson, took extremely revolutionary steps to disrupt the narrative. We know what happened to them. Far-right Americans don't seem too open to the idea of national reconciliation. What's achievable is disrupting the narrative starting with education. Erase the white savior narrative, start speaking on the crimes against humanity committed in our past, embrace our accomplishments while being okay with condemning our mistakes. It will take a lot of cooperation and humility.
No man does not have feet of clay, this is what people should realise.

Nelson Mandela was a great man, who helped usher in a peaceful transition in South Africa - but he had been a terrorist founding the military wing of the ANC, who ordered murders and car bombings, advocated cutting off noses and ears of colloborationist blacks and necklacing (meaning putting a tyre around their necks, dousing it with petrol and setting it alight). He ultimately redeemed himself, but he was no saint. The anti-Apartheid activists had things for which truth and reconciliation also needed to be sought for.

Martin Luther King was a sexist and serial adulterer, which recently declassified tapes seems to argue watched rape while laughing.

Lincoln was certainly racist by modern standards, as was Gandhi - the latter calling Zulus subhuman, and thought whites and Indians should rule together over them in Natal.

My point is that we aren't seeing a more objective narrative, we are just seeing a new one. A new myth for a new purpose. History always represents a narrative, and that always has some slant from its writer.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I think the message needs to be more rooted in reality though, as in ‘ordinary people do terrible things’ as opposed to ‘some white people did some terrible things’. It seems that all cultures have this same rose-tinted glasses thing going on, I’ve come across narratives of an idyllic pre colonial Africa which are just not accurate. I got into what turned into quite a heated debate over the common (as far as I’ve been able to find out) use of slave labour in Ancient African cultures, like Egypt, with someone who insisted that the pyramids etc were built by willing volunteers. That’s a bit extreme maybe but the false dichotomy of you guys bad/us guys good is hard to swallow because it simply isn’t real. There has to be both the truth in the broadest sense and the reconciliation, and reconciliation only works, I think, if we all see that we’re all pretty much the same, that our actions and beliefs are guided by circumstance and experience (etc).
Egyptology currently thinks the Pyramids weren't built primarily by slave labour, but by the semi-free peasantry of Egypt during periods where they weren't needed for agriculture. How 'willing' this was is doubtful, probably about as willing as modern taxation. Still, the argument of slaves building the Pyramids at least needs an extensive caveat.
 
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Radagast

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Thanks for proving my point.

My point was a statistical one: there are rural white communities in the US that face poverty and social prejudice to a degree as great as anyone else; and they also lack access to many forms of government help.

Some rage is good, just not blind rage.

Rage is dangerous and destructive. To fix, one must understand. To understand, one must empathise.

A classic work of understanding would be, for example, "Deep South." Ironically, it has fallen by the wayside because it quotes black people using the "N word."

510nPC9vkpL.jpg
 
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Tom 1

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Egyptology currently thinks the Pyramids weren't built primarily by slave labour, but by the semi-free peasantry of Egypt during periods where they weren't needed for agriculture. How 'willing' this was is doubtful, probably about as willing as modern taxation. Still, the argument of slaves building the Pyramids at least needs an extensive caveat.

Yes I was vaguely aware it was probably something of that sort, I'm a bit more familiar with slavery as practised in Sumeria, which seems to have been more like what we might call indentured servitude than slavery as in the modern world, but I was surprised by the conviction with which someone could hold the view of an idyllic ancient African world where people rose to worship together and willingly built monuments to their benevolent leaders.
 
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agapelove

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I think the message needs to be more rooted in reality though, as in ‘ordinary people do terrible things’ as opposed to ‘some white people did some terrible things’. It seems that all cultures have this same rose-tinted glasses thing going on, I’ve come across narratives of an idyllic pre colonial Africa which are just not accurate. I got into what turned into quite a heated debate over the common (as far as I’ve been able to find out) use of slave labour in Ancient African cultures, like Egypt, with someone who insisted that the pyramids etc were built by willing volunteers. That’s a bit extreme maybe but the false dichotomy of you guys bad/us guys good is hard to swallow because it simply isn’t real. There has to be both the truth in the broadest sense and the reconciliation, and reconciliation only works, I think, if we all see that we’re all pretty much the same, that our actions and beliefs are guided by circumstance and experience (etc).
I agree, but I think what's difficult is that a lot of the "terrible things" were fueled by racial intolerance, and it wasn't necessarily individual persons responsible for any particular thing but rather entire institutions. It's enshrined in US history-- Native American assimilation, slavery, Jim Crow, 1790's Naturalization Act, anti-Chinese legislation, the Zoot Suit riots, Japanese internment, mass incarceration, the list goes on. It's hard for people to separate the whiteness from the sin since most of the sins helped preserve some sort of racial hierarchy. I think that's why there's such a heavy emphasis on dismantling racism within education. We need to fundamentally rethink our curriculum and introduce culturally responsive pedagogy in order to make space for these difficult conversations, starting with the lie that America is a perfect country with a sparkly history.
 
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agapelove

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Rage is dangerous and destructive. To fix, one must understand. To understand, one must empathise.

Sometimes rage can be productive. How do you think Jesus cleared the temple? ;)
 
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agapelove

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No man does not have feet of clay, this is what people should realise.

Nelson Mandela was a great man, who helped usher in a peaceful transition in South Africa - but he had been a terrorist founding the military wing of the ANC, who ordered murders and car bombings, advocated cutting off noses and ears of colloborationist blacks and necklacing (meaning putting a tyre around their necks, dousing it with petrol and setting it alight). He ultimately redeemed himself, but he was no saint. The anti-Apartheid activists had things for which truth and reconciliation also needed to be sought for.

Martin Luther King was a sexist and serial adulterer, which recently declassified tapes seems to argue watched rape while laughing.

Lincoln was certainly racist by modern standards, as was Gandhi - the latter calling Zulus subhuman, and thought whites and Indians should rule together over them in Natal.

My point is that we aren't seeing a more objective narrative, we are just seeing a new one. A new myth for a new purpose. History always represents a narrative, and that always has some slant from its writer.

That's been my point too, education needs to be objective but the US has failed horribly at that. What is the new narrative we are seeing in your opinion?
 
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Radagast

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Sometimes rage can be productive. How do you think Jesus cleared the temple? ;)

There's a line between justifiable outrage and sinful anger.

For everyone except Jesus, that's a line that's very difficult to stay on one side of.

As I said: To fix, one must understand. To understand, one must empathise. Which is another way of saying: love your enemies.
 
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Kaon

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...To current events.

A couple of things I came across recently have made me question whether people living in the US have a fundamentally different way of thinking about what constitutes recent history, and what might be called ancient history, or just things that occurred 'a long time ago'.

The first was an article written by a young woman that I read on Medium about certain themes in 'ancient' literature. What the article was actually about was medieval and renaissance literature, which the writer appears to think of as periods of 'ancient' history. The second was the idea I've seen in a few threads here on CF that the period of slavery in the US happened so long ago that it no longer has any relevance.

This last idea is worth discussing, I think. As a European, I tend to see history as stretching back in one unbroken line (which is indeed what it does) to the very earliest times we know anything about. Everything that ever happened in any significant way had an effect on everything that came after it. To me, that seems obvious - am I wrong? I have spent most of my adult life living in the UK, in England specifically. The dual influences of the classical world and the Germanic/Nordic world are obvious and widespread in English society, thinking, language - pretty much everything. It is not difficult to see how major events in history have shaped the way the English see themselves and how English society functions, 1066 (and all that), the great plague, the subsequent peasants revolt and so on and so on. All of these historic influences come together to inform the perceptions and prejudices of the average person in the street. Again, this seems obvious.

Slavery was common in the US during what was in England the Victorian era - of course slavery was effectively exported to the US from England and other European countries, via colonialism, so this isn't about apportioning blame in any sense, just about things that happened - but wasn't part of most people's lives actually in England at that time. But that same period was tremendously influential on English society and how English people see themselves in all kinds of ways that are absolutely still relevant to how that society functions now. A society and its history are ineluctably bound to each other, what society is now in any country is what previous actions and events have made it. Again, this seems blatantly obvious.

It does to me, anyway, but it does seem that maybe this way of thinking isn't so common or regarded as obvious in the US - ? Is that true? To me, the Victorian period was really not all that long ago, in historical terms. Slavery in the US ended, as I understand it, in the late 1800s, there were laws in place that defined black people in some parts of the US as unequal citizens up until the 1960s, and quantifiable social prejudice continued into the 1970s. None of this is ancient history, but the view that none of this has any relevance today, with regard to the current situation as much as the wider picture of race relations in the US, seems to be quite common.

That's my impression in any case, and it is just an impression, so I'd be interested in hearing what people living in the US think about it. The US is after all a very young country and so a different understanding of history, and different conceptions of what constitutes ancient history, are explainable.


Because some of us benefit from the system of racism and subjugation our parents and grandparents helped build, it would do nothing to admit the reality of slavery. It would undermine your privilege, the illusion of racial exceptionalism (ignoring the handicap put on others) and the power of your voice to admit racism existed, and exists today.

This is why you get so many Christians, for example (whose conscience should be convicting them) mxaking excuses for racism and prejudice by appealing to statistics skewed against a certain group, or dog-whistles and political claptrap. It allows the person to deflect from the fact that they condone treating other humans like less than animals.

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Can you imagine if someone had their knee on a dog's neck in public for 8 minutes - while the dog yelped and screamed? American people would go crazy. It is clear to anyone being sincere that there wouldn't be the same care or response for a black person as there would be for a DOG - we know this, because we see how people apologize for a black man being kneed to death. And, this stuff happens every other week: a citizen mowing down and shooting random black people, or cops who exploit qualified immunity and enjoy knocking off a black person.
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When a nation has this type active hate for any of their citizens, it makes it easy for foreign powers to destabilize the nation. We see the racist language police and Americans use. We see how Americans (police) say more blacks should have caught Covid, or how they should be shot in the streets. We see people wearing "All Lives Splatter" shirts to mock a real situation of subjugation and death. Many of us choose to ignore it for our own comfort. Others embrace this sentiment.

The ignorance and hypocrisy Americans have doubled down on is by spiritual and military design. Militarily, exploiting a nation's division and obvious hate is one of the easiest ways to collapse a nation without a shot; Americans would rather destabilize and destroy their own nation than lose their prejudices (the same prejudices that built a system handicapped against others) and treat others as an equal. We deign for equality while deceptively taking the same equality we presented, and then we call the people we swindled "liars" after the fact.
 
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agapelove

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As I said: To fix, one must understand. To understand, one must empathise. Which is another way of saying: love your enemies.
Yeah tell that to the all lives matter folks who refuse to acknowledge the plight of black people and how systemic racism is real.
 
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Kaon

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I think most all Americans do not realize American police evolved from Slave Patrols and Plantation police - specifically meant to police [black] slaves.

With that, it should be understandable why there is disproportionate amount of force on blacks in America, and why a black life is disposable tongue Fraternal Order of Police. It is a systemic issue, a psychological issue and a life or death issue. The IQ cap for law enforcement is likely so no one listens to their conscience, and takes orders without much trouble.

Racism in America is a product of the history we ignore and repeat.
 
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Radagast

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Yeah tell that to the all lives matter folks

The "all lives matter folks" are saying that white lives matter too. The shooting of Justine Damond was as much of a tragedy as the shooting of Breonna Taylor.

how systemic racism is real.

Oh, systemic racism is real all right. Try applying to an Ivy League college if you're Asian.
 
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agapelove

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The "all lives matter folks" are saying that white lives matter too. The shooting of Justine Damond was as much of a tragedy as the shooting of Breonna Taylor.
Yes but only one of the officers is sitting in prison right now. Guess which one?
 
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Radagast

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I think most all Americans do not realize American police evolved from Slave Patrols and Plantation police - specifically meant to police [black] slaves.

That's a complete myth. American police derive from European law enforcement. For example, the New York City Sheriff's Office goes back to 1626. It's job was maintaining urban law and order.
 
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Kaon

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Yeah tell that to the all lives matter folks who refuse to acknowledge the plight of black people and how systemic racism is real.

They cant, especially now. And, they know what they are doing. No one has to be reminded that white lives matter, for example. They aren't the "animals" right?

And, yet, Americans wouldn't knee a DOG to death in public while it is yelping for help. PETA alone would eviscerate that American.

Americans know blacks are isolated with no nation to claim them other than America. You don't see this happening to Americans who have come from African nations, or even the island nations - because that nation would charge America for killing its people.

This is how we [should] know America is running a multifaceted game of oppression.
 
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