The reason I will never be a Christian

[Andy S]

The whole context of the paragraph is that people act like The Most High owes them something, whether it be proof of His existence, wealth, happiness, removal of a sin, and so on.

This is great! You believe that the Most Hight doesn't owe us proof of His existence and then you are going to praise Him for punishing people because they don't have enough proof for His existence. Spoken like a true Christian!

The Most High, and no "god" for that matter, owes any son of man anything - and most of us have the audacity to get mad at the Most High because He doesn't make our life like we want it. It is vanity, and that is why I said "Gods don't bow to us [humans,] we bow to them" to highlight that it is unfathomably arrogant and ignorant for sons of man to demand anything from any magistrate - low or The Most High.

Well, there you go again. You're teetering. I can tell Joey downunder is cringing. I don't think it says anywhere in the bible that sons of man can't demand anything from a lower magistrate. The bible points out that you are to fear and honor God and God alone. Paul mentions that Christians are actually going to judge the angels (1 Cor. 6:3). In Revelation an angel even tells John not to bow to him because he is not God (Rev. 19:10). It seems like you are honoring even "lower magistrates" in your life. Now I'm not even too sure you are a true Christian. Luckily for you, there is an experiment you can conduct that Jesus gave you in His Holy Word that will let you know if you are a true Christian. You seem to like science so do what it says in Mark 16:18. All you have to do to prove you are a true Christian is take a glass of poison into a laboratory and drink it. Then take out a paper and right down your observations.

I can't imagine you being confident in knowing what the bible says, especially considering it is almost imperative to understand Greek and Hebrew language and idioms of that time.

I know huh. It is so incredible that your God gave me His inspired word that had to be translated through multiple languages all because He was afraid that the people of Babel would build a tower that would reach into heaven (Genesis 11). Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you now that you know how massive the universe is? Oh yeah, I forgot who I was talking to.

Do you realize a scientist is also human, and is capable of lying, deceiving, and being plain wrong.

I agree, scientists are capable of lying, deceiving, and being plain wrong. That is why I trust the scientific method that takes place in the scientific community. This is the greatest method known to man that guides people to truth. Scientists keep other scientists in check based on observations, hypotheses, predictions, testing and analysis. Scientists love proving other scientists wrong by making testable predictions, testing new hypotheses and developing theories that illustrate and describe various causes. That's what makes the scientific method so great!

I became a physicist because your hand is in every other scientific discipline except biological sciences. So, I supplemented my degree with biophysical modeling, biological sciences, physical chemistry, and nuclear physics. I am well aware of many of the parts of the ToE, and I have repeated many of these experiments in laboratory. In my seminar classes, we frequently discuss possible (and probably) fallacies and problems with the ToE and its many pieces. I am ambivalent on the ToE; it isn't part of my field necessarily, but I have read enough papers, seen enough scholarly criticism, and been in academia long enough to have a great idea of what is going on politically and scientifically with ToE.

This is all anecdotal evidence and I seriously doubt most of this. Anyway, this is also an argument from authority which is a logical fallacy if you know anything about logic. Sorry I doubt your authority in the scientific community but you are talking to someone who even doubts that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses.

Now, as far as why I am so against just accepting a scientist's word for something, it is simple. Many scientists are bought, compromised, and downright lie.

I thought the stupidest thing I heard this week was Joey downunder's MP3 she made me listen to but I've got to say, this tops it. So you are saying that I shouldn't trust evolutionary biologists when they say that our DNA sequence is similar to chimpanzees because these scientists are "bought, compromised and downright lie". WHAT? You're saying that these scientists could possibly be "bought"? Now I'm really questioning your credentials as well as your anecdotal evidence. So your telling me that certain scientists are being payed off by other scientists so their findings will not go public. So these creation scientists who really want to show that the bible is true and evolution is wrong are practically selling their souls for a pay out. I seriously doubt this but I do find it amusing that a Christian would actually think this.

It is ridiculous to me that any human would put their scientific and intellectual futures in the hands of another human - at least without investing ample intellectual research for one's self.

Isn't this what you are doing with the contradictory human authors of the bible? I think you should have some intellectual integrity and examine the bible objectively.

Somehow, you cant humble yourself to realize human logic cannot compare to Divine "logic."

By Divine "logic" are you talking about the bible. Then you must be talking about contradictory "logic" which is an oxymoron.

The earth is old - it says that in Genesis 1:1. It was made at the same time Heaven was made, and before The Most High makes "time" - before He designates the definition of a day.

It amazes me that a "scientist", who relies heavily on observations, is going to argue the Genesis creation account without opening his bible. The word "heaven" was used on the second day. The word "earth" was used on the third day.

So, according to the bible, the "earth" was made on the third day. And the earth is not "old" as you say according to the bible. Most conservative bible scholars would disagree with you and they have every right to disagree with you. The earth was three days older than man and from the first man we can estimate the age of the earth based on the genealogy of Jesus in Luke chapter 3. Scholarly geeks have added up all the ages of all the people in Jesus' genealogy and it puts the birth of the earth to be around 6,000 years old. The Jews estimate the earth to be 5,769 years old last time I checked.

I see the cognitive dissonance that is taking place here though. You except science when it comes to the age of the earth but you reject science when it comes to evolution. So when it comes to the evolution the scientists are being "bought" but when it comes to the age of the earth the science is legitimate.

Genesis 1 is not contradictory to genesis 2: you really do not read the bible as study, or you have a fetish for just listening to people. The very short description of the creation story begins in Genesis 1:1, and ends in Genesis 2:3. Then, the story from Genesis 2:4 - Revelation 22:21 is the very detailed creation - with Christ's Kingdom as the seventh day of rest (in the future.) Genesis 2:4 begins with "These are the generations of the heaven and the earth." From there, it describes in detail God making trees, how it didn't rain, but there was just a mist like the rainforest, and the creation of the first man - Adam. He did not make two sets of people - one to just be, and one to bring about Christ. Adam was the first man.

This is all gibberish. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are contradictory based on the order of events that took place in the creation story. In other words, animals were created before Adam in Genesis 1 but animals were created after Adam in Genesis 2. I'll have to check out the idea that two sets of people were created in Genesis 2. I like to hear different interpretations of the bible but I'll have to agree with you that Adam was the first man according to the bible as to the straight forward reading of the bible. Do you have a reference as to "two sets of people"?

God mapped out the entire creation, prophecies, and future events in the stars. The Hebrews used these for symbols and signs, but it became a pagan pollution turned into astrology for divination primarily.

This is absolutely false! I can't believe you call yourself a scientist and you say that God mapped out prophecies and future events in the stars. Do you have a reference at all? I actually feel dumb for asking you for this because I know it is not biblical. As a scientist do you have an observation from the bible that tells you that God mapped out prophecies and future events in the stars?

You are very, very confused about a lot of things in the bible

It is obvious that we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I am a struggling non-Christian and that's why I jumped on this thread. I am honestly a seeker but I have had no proof (as of yet) of this thing you call Most High (Jesus/Yahweh/Holy Spirit). I am surrounded by Christians who say that I am too much of a skeptic but I will be blessed if "even though I do not see, I should believe" as it says in John 21:29 about Thomas. It is amazing to me that Thomas didn't believe that Jesus resurrected from the dead even though he witnessed the resurrection of Lazurus among many other unbelievable miracles that Jesus supposedly performed. According to the bible, Thomas didn't believe in the resurrection of Jesus just like other disciples (Matt. 28:17). And, as an individual in the 21st century, all I'm given is a contradictory "word of God" which, if I don't believe in it, I will burn in hell. I am given a contradictory genealogy of Jesus (compare Matt. 1 and Luke 3). I am given a contradictory time of death from these supposed eyewitnesses (compare Mark 15:25 with John 19:14). I am given a contradictory day of death from these supposed eye witnesses among many other contradictions. Did Jesus die on the afternoon on the day before the Passover meal (Jn. 18:28, 19;24) or the mid-morning on the day after the Passover meal (Mk. 14:12, 15:25)?

In addition I don't think the doubting Thomas story is even reliable. Did Jesus say to Thomas, "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" in the first post resurrection appearance of Jesus? Probably not because Luke says that Thomas was present at Jesus' first post resurrection appearance (Luke 24:33). Well maybe I'm wrong. Here are my options:

Option 1: Thomas was present at Jesus' first post resurrection appearance (Luke 24:33)

Option 2: Thomas was not present at Jesus' first post resurrection appearance (John 20:24)

Option 3: This story didn't even happen.

Option 4: Thomas was both absent and present at Jesus' first post resurrection and those who don't believe this option are "spiritually appraised" and are "blinded" by the "god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4).

The Christian survey saaayyys, option #4.

Like I told the unrepentant sinner Joey downunder (who still has not apologized for her pride), when you hold up the bible like a gun and say that I'm going to hell, just know that the gun is not loaded!

When I walk out of a doctor's office, I want him/her to say, "I am assured you will get better". I don't want him/her to say "I hope you get better". That is why Paul said that you are looking for the blessed hope in Titus 2:13 and not the blessed assurance. Even the writer of Titus (possibly Paul) even had doubts.

 

[Lollerskates]

This is great! You believe that the Most Hight doesn't owe us proof of His existence and then you are going to praise Him for punishing people because they don't have enough proof for His existence. Spoken like a true Christian!





Well, there you go again. You're teetering. I can tell Joey downunder is cringing. I don't think it says anywhere in the bible that sons of man can't demand anything from a lower magistrate. The bible points out that you are to fear and honor God and God alone. Paul mentions that Christians are actually going to judge the angels (1 Cor. 6:3). In Revelation an angel even tells John not to bow to him because he is not God (Rev. 19:10). It seems like you are honoring even "lower magistrates" in your life. Now I'm not even too sure you are a true Christian. Luckily for you, there is an experiment you can conduct that Jesus gave you in His Holy Word that will let you know if you are a true Christian. You seem to like science so do what it says in Mark 16:18. All you have to do to prove you are a true Christian is take a glass of poison into a laboratory and drink it. Then take out a paper and right down your observations.



I know huh. It is so incredible that your God gave me His inspired word that had to be translated through multiple languages all because He was afraid that the people of Babel would build a tower that would reach into heaven (Genesis 11). Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you now that you know how massive the universe is? Oh yeah, I forgot who I was talking to.


I agree, scientists are capable of lying, deceiving, and being plain wrong. That is why I trust the scientific method that takes place in the scientific community. This is the greatest method known to man that guides people to truth. Scientists keep other scientists in check based on observations, hypotheses, predictions, testing and analysis. Scientists love proving other scientists wrong by making testable predictions, testing new hypotheses and developing theories that illustrate and describe various causes. That's what makes the scientific method so great!




This is all anecdotal evidence and I seriously doubt most of this. Anyway, this is also an argument from authority which is a logical fallacy if you know anything about logic. Sorry I doubt your authority in the scientific community but you are talking to someone who even doubts that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses.



I thought the stupidest thing I heard this week was Joey downunder's MP3 she made me listen to but I've got to say, this tops it. So you are saying that I shouldn't trust evolutionary biologists when they say that our DNA sequence is similar to chimpanzees because these scientists are "bought, compromised and downright lie". WHAT? You're saying that these scientists could possibly be "bought"? Now I'm really questioning your credentials as well as your anecdotal evidence. So your telling me that certain scientists are being payed off by other scientists so their findings will not go public. So these creation scientists who really want to show that the bible is true and evolution is wrong are practically selling their souls for a pay out. I seriously doubt this but I do find it amusing that a Christian would actually think this.


Isn't this what you are doing with the contradictory human authors of the bible? I think you should have some intellectual integrity and examine the bible objectively.




By Divine "logic" are you talking about the bible. Then you must be talking about contradictory "logic" which is an oxymoron.





It amazes me that a "scientist", who relies heavily on observations, is going to argue the Genesis creation account without opening his bible. The word "heaven" was used on the second day. The word "earth" was used on the third day.

So, according to the bible, the "earth" was made on the third day. And the earth is not "old" as you say according to the bible. Most conservative bible scholars would disagree with you and they have every right to disagree with you. The earth was three days older than man and from the first man we can estimate the age of the earth based on the genealogy of Jesus in Luke chapter 3. Scholarly geeks have added up all the ages of all the people in Jesus' genealogy and it puts the birth of the earth to be around 6,000 years old. The Jews estimate the earth to be 5,769 years old last time I checked.

I see the cognitive dissonance that is taking place here though. You except science when it comes to the age of the earth but you reject science when it comes to evolution. So when it comes to the evolution the scientists are being "bought" but when it comes to the age of the earth the science is legitimate.




This is all gibberish. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are contradictory based on the order of events that took place in the creation story. In other words, animals were created before Adam in Genesis 1 but animals were created after Adam in Genesis 2. I'll have to check out the idea that two sets of people were created in Genesis 2. I like to hear different interpretations of the bible but I'll have to agree with you that Adam was the first man according to the bible as to the straight forward reading of the bible. Do you have a reference as to "two sets of people"?



This is absolutely false! I can't believe you call yourself a scientist and you say that God mapped out prophecies and future events in the stars. Do you have a reference at all? I actually feel dumb for asking you for this because I know it is not biblical. As a scientist do you have an observation from the bible that tells you that God mapped out prophecies and future events in the stars?



It is obvious that we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I am a struggling non-Christian and that's why I jumped on this thread. I am honestly a seeker but I have had no proof (as of yet) of this thing you call Most High (Jesus/Yahweh/Holy Spirit). I am surrounded by Christians who say that I am too much of a skeptic but I will be blessed if "even though I do not see, I should believe" as it says in John 21:29 about Thomas. It is amazing to me that Thomas didn't believe that Jesus resurrected from the dead even though he witnessed the resurrection of Lazurus among many other unbelievable miracles that Jesus supposedly performed. According to the bible, Thomas didn't believe in the resurrection of Jesus just like other disciples (Matt. 28:17). And, as an individual in the 21st century, all I'm given is a contradictory "word of God" which, if I don't believe in it, I will burn in hell. I am given a contradictory genealogy of Jesus (compare Matt. 1 and Luke 3). I am given a contradictory time of death from these supposed eyewitnesses (compare Mark 15:25 with John 19:14). I am given a contradictory day of death from these supposed eye witnesses among many other contradictions. Did Jesus die on the afternoon on the day before the Passover meal (Jn. 18:28, 19;24) or the mid-morning on the day after the Passover meal (Mk. 14:12, 15:25)?

In addition I don't think the doubting Thomas story is even reliable. Did Jesus say to Thomas, "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" in the first post resurrection appearance of Jesus? Probably not because Luke says that Thomas was present at Jesus' first post resurrection appearance (Luke 24:33). Well maybe I'm wrong. Here are my options:

Option 1: Thomas was present at Jesus' first post resurrection appearance (Luke 24:33)

Option 2: Thomas was not present at Jesus' first post resurrection appearance (John 20:24)

Option 3: This story didn't even happen.

Option 4: Thomas was both absent and present at Jesus' first post resurrection and those who don't believe this option are "spiritually appraised" and are "blinded" by the "god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4).

The Christian survey saaayyys, option #4.

Like I told the unrepentant sinner Joey downunder (who still has not apologized for her pride), when you hold up the bible like a gun and say that I'm going to hell, just know that the gun is not loaded!

When I walk out of a doctor's office, I want him/her to say, "I am assured you will get better". I don't want him/her to say "I hope you get better". That is why Paul said that you are looking for the blessed hope in Titus 2:13 and not the blessed assurance. Even the writer of Titus (possibly Paul) even had doubts.

I want you to remember everything you said here (and, I mean it - seriously no sarcasm.) That way, when I see you at Judgment Day - you, me and God can have a nice long conversation about what you think of me, and what I think of you - and The Most High can provide undeniable proof. Moreover, you can take up everything with Him, and you can get your answers straight from the source. I look forward to seeing you then (and, you won't tempt me anymore.)



P.S. I am seriously serious about remembering the things you wrote about me. I look forward to seeing and conversing with you soon.

 

[7spiritfilled]

sadly I must say Amen to the quote...

Yes there are a lot of very immature "Christians". "American Christianity" in particular is quite guilty, materialistic, mislead and sometimes flat our evil or misled. Many profess it because they were raised that way, they have not really committed themselves to the discipleship of it and because we live in a nation with religious liberty much of what they believe and or say goes untested. My suspicion is that if there were persecution or serious trial most of these Christians would fall away from the faith because they have never really understood it to begin with.

I do challenge you though not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I have no doubt there are man Christians who are not as close-minded, ignorant, manipulative, immoral or as self-righteous as you have sadly experienced.

Regardless of how you feel I wish you peace, blessings, mercy and love and fulfillment in all you do.

Yes, I agree. It is too bad we do not take a good look inside of ourselves to view how others may see us. I call them " Christians in name only". There are so many disagreements even about doctrine and I have noticed much pride as we all think we have the correct interpretation of prophecy. I know many people who have left the church because of mean spirited so called Christians. If there is any atheists who is reading this, I humbly apologize as we are to follow Christ and His example. We all know how to judge others but we never look into ourselves. We throw everyone into hell instead of pulling them out of the fire. We tend to care about the color of the carpet instead of who is walking on it. I have noticed some who would initiate a prayer as an excuse to gossip. Help us help you. The truth is in Jesus. Help us follow His example. I know there is a God. I know Christ died on the cross and put the sins of the whole world upon Himself. I know the Holy Spirit dwells within me and every Christian who calls Jesus Lord. To every person who once believed, read the Bible all the words in red. Don't follow us, follow Him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Found this quote and it sums it up perfectly:

“The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”

Read through your own forums without your 'goggles of righteousness' on. Please explain to me why any sane or intelligent person who lives a good and compassionate life, who has been blessed with everything they need and more would choose the path of Christians? Seems to me that all it brings is stupidity, an incredible and false sense of self importance, a excuse to sin and a life filled with problems and issues?

What would be an example of some those negative actions by Christians?

Matthew 5:16
Thus let shine! the light of ye before the men,
that they may seeing the ideal works and they should be glorifying the Father of ye in the heavens.

1 Peter 2:12
The behavior of ye in the the nations having, ideal,
that in which they are speaking against ye as evil-doers, out of the ideal works being spectators they should be glorifying the God in day of visitation.


.

 

[Andy S]

I want you to remember everything you said here (and, I mean it - seriously no sarcasm.) That way, when I see you at Judgment Day - you, me and God can have a nice long conversation about what you think of me, and what I think of you - and The Most High can provide undeniable proof. Moreover, you can take up everything with Him, and you can get your answers straight from the source.

At least you admit that the bible is not a good source for answers since you say we would have to go directly to the Most High to get answers. Wouldn't you think all the answers would be provided in His "infallible" inspired word?

And wasn't the Judgement Day supposed to have already come? Jesus says in Mark 13:30, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place (the Judgement). Was Jesus linguistically challenged and when he said "this generation" he really meant a future generation? Oh yeah, I forgot who I was talking to. Normal English people like myself have a wrong understanding of this verse because "it is imperative to understand Greek and Hebrew language and the idioms of that time".

I look forward to seeing you then (and, you won't tempt me anymore.)

Getting back to your first post, the God of the Bible cannot "do whatever He wants to do". Judges 1:19 says that God could not "drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots."

If there is a judgement day (which I seriously doubt) then I'm sure I'll find you in the "people who bear false witness" section right next to Joey downunder since you misrepresent the science community and lie about evolutionary biologists being "bought". I'm sure I'll find you because I'll just listen for the person who is bragging about all his credentials.

You will easily be able to tell who I am. I will be the one cruising around in my iron chariot since iron chariots are like kryptonite to the God of the bible.