The reason I will never be a Christian

[aiki]

In saying all this, can I ask your opinions on this: what is the need for fellowship or to belong to a church?

The Bible directs Christians to be in community with one another. God has equipped each believer with a "spiritual gift" which He intends they should use to benefit one another and the world around them. A "lone wolf" believer is cut off from an important source of support, encouragement teaching and correction.

Can one be a Christian without these rituals?

Well, you see, being a part of a local community of believers isn't a ritual. It's the natural consequence of loving a God who loves His children (and all of humanity). Ritual tends to replace relationship. God wants us to relate with Him and each other, not observe dry, mechanical rituals.

Selah.

 

[kala83]

how does one live up to Jesus? aren't not people individuals that will go along with their lives in their own individual ways?

one can try as best they can to lead a perfect life and it will not happen.

even the bible it self says no human being is without sin! I believe personally as human being we get to caught up in other people's sins, and try to make theirs seem some how more important then our own.

I am a very honest person i live up to my mistake and my short comings, although some things I do are very disagreed upon by other people.
Sadly this is just a truth of the world, you can not please every single person, as such I don't think its very logical to think that you live up to every single expectation gods as of you either.

But trying to lead a good life and being kind and respectful to as many people in the world as possible is always a good thing for any human being.

 

[ProudMomxmany]

"Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words only if necessary" - St. Francis of Assisi.

Christ said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". He also gave us the charge to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the shelterless, to give to those who have less.

Unfortunately, the "Christians" who get the most air time are the strident, narrow, nasty, rude and judgmental types. They are like the ones who left the bleeding man on the side of the road...the Samaritan man who came by and took care of the man was showing more of God's love than the priest, the rabbi, and the other one who left the man.

A "real" Christian is like the Samaritan man. He will care for his brothers and sisters without a thought to who they are, what they believe, how much money they have or what they can do for me.

I'm so sorry you've run into the ugly Pharisees.

 

[Girder of Loins]

Found this quote and it sums it up perfectly:

“The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”

Same reason why I read the Bible rather than listen to a pastor.

Read through your own forums without your 'goggles of righteousness' on. Please explain to me why any sane or intelligent person who lives a good and compassionate life, who has been blessed with everything they need and more would choose the path of Christians?

You could say that I am one of those people. I'm a caucasian male with higher education. But through Christ, I am able to escape those labels and stereotypes. I am allowed to be myself and be a bigger light than what society deems I should be.

Seems to me that all it brings is stupidity, an incredible and false sense of self importance, a excuse to sin and a life filled with problems and issues?

I don't think I'm stupid, but I may not be smart.

Christ told us to become the servants of all. To quote a great band,"If I could become the servant of all, no lower place to fall."(mewithoutYou)

I don't like betraying the trust God has given me. He's trusted me with a lot, so sinning doesn't make sense to me. It's like getting a Hummer from your dad then totaling it. You know he'll keep buying you new ones, but what's the point? Just keep the one you've got and learn to be happy. Not everyone gets what you get, and that makes me sad sometimes...

And to quote a movie I cannot think the name of,"We've all got problems, chicky-baby."

 

[Theodor1]

Found this quote and it sums it up perfectly:

“The number one cause of atheism is Christians.

Perhaps that is why Moses would go on 40 day fasts where he would just go off and get away from people and spend time with God. The Holy Spirit of God is given to guide us and lead us into all truth. Other people have nothing to do with it. This is between us and God. We can not be reconciled with each other until we are first reconciled with God the Father.

 

[kala83]

"Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words only if necessary" - St. Francis of Assisi.

Christ said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". He also gave us the charge to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the shelterless, to give to those who have less.

Unfortunately, the "Christians" who get the most air time are the strident, narrow, nasty, rude and judgmental types. They are like the ones who left the bleeding man on the side of the road...the Samaritan man who came by and took care of the man was showing more of God's love than the priest, the rabbi, and the other one who left the man.

A "real" Christian is like the Samaritan man. He will care for his brothers and sisters without a thought to who they are, what they believe, how much money they have or what they can do for me.

I'm so sorry you've run into the ugly Pharisees.

I run into people such as this frequently on here simply due to how I do things are not exactly the same as they are what they would like they call me a lier a sinner and "not one of us" I wonder truly do these people know how rude and un kind these words are.
simply because the way I practice my faith is different does not make me a unbeliever and it does not make me a bad person. Its hard not to fight fire with fire on one of the posts I have up here on the site. And truly all my intent was to be honest about how I am as a person but I feel personally attacked by it now.

I am not a typical christian I don't do everything in my household exactly as all Christians would. But really this does not make me a non christian and it does not make me a bad person. The only person who gets the right to say what I believe well is ME!

and or god! and God is supposed to love all his children yes?

 

[joey_downunder]

and God is supposed to love all his children yes?

Are you one of God's children?

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Compare:

Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[kala83]

and so what if I did happen to believe in god and have idols in my house. Not truly wants I worship but that I respect for their religious origins and yes I might very well believe there are other gods...I don't necessarily worship them.

but why of all things does this make me bad some how? I am not going out and killing others. I am not hurting anyone I read the bible I believe in Jesus. And yet due to small things like this or that I cast spells. Which truly is just putting positive energy into a task worth doing like a job interview.

it is hurtful. YES I do think i am a child of god if others don't want to believe that's on them not me.

 

[joey_downunder]

Do you really think "So what"?

OK, imagine yourself standing before God when on Judgement Day.

1.Will God accept your "so what" where it comes to direct commandments to worship only Him and no other god/s?
2. Will God agree that you are a child of His if you have honoured another god/other gods?

Another commandment:

Deuteronomy 18:9“When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God."

Don't try to use the excuse "that commandment is for Jews only." This commandment is re-worded in the New Testament.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you."
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”

Do you really think that God will receive someone who is continuing to honour other religions?

 

[kala83]

it never says there are no other gods it says you should not worship them.... I know it annoys a lot of people but this kind of perks my interest in studying them...more. And I don't really worship them as I said I show respect but not worship not totally anyway.

Yes its a sin....fine...but all of us sin... its sort of impossible not to.

just saying I am not pefect but that does not make me bad.

 

[kala83]

I think that wither we all believe or follow the same things we should treat all people with love and respect. Calling any person an abonation simply due to what they believe is harsh and cruel.

witches used to be known as "wise ones" we are not devil worshipers at all. We are people that have respect for nature and the changing of seasons, we have a great deal of respect for our ancestory and history of the world and within in our own households.

and we believe in treating others with respect as well as not harming oneself or others very much like Christians do.

I just don't think that people should treat other people in harsh ways simply because they are not the same as you. It leads to hate and sometimes even genocide and we all lead to short a lives to, allow for hate and murder to reside in our hearts.

 

[joey_downunder]

I think that wither we all believe or follow the same things we should treat all people with love and respect. Calling any person an abonation simply due to what they believe is harsh and cruel.

God Himself calls people who do those things described in Deuteronomy 18 an abomination. He is the one who judges people, not us, not you, not me.

If God -all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present- says that something we enjoy is an abomination, that will always be true whether we like that or not.

Does up become down, or black become white just because you (want to) see it that way?

 

[Andy S]

I would have to disagree with the OP and say that the material in the bible is the number one cause of atheism. However, Christian behavior towards one another is a close second in my opinion. Kala83 and Joey downunder are making it evident to me that there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit. How can two Christians who claim to have the same Holy Spirit disagree on what is right or wrong. The Holy Spirit is supposed to guide all believers into "all truth" and "convict" Christians of their sins. How can the Holy Spirit even be real if so many Christians disagree on what is right and wrong. Not only that but Christians have disagreement on almost every doctrine presented in the bible including the most important doctrine of salvation. As a "seeker" I see absolutely no evidence for the Christian Holy Spirit and you two are making this even clearer to me.

 

[joey_downunder]

Andy S you are using what appears to be a disagreement between Christians as an excuse for you to reject God.

If you know anything about the bible you already know that the Jews (Old Testament) / Christians (New Testament) are forbidden to use the occult in any form. You are reading the excuses of a very disobedient Christian (assuming she is one but has become terribly self-deceived). The Holy Spirit NEVER would give the OK to use the occult like she currently is.

Would you expect Richard Dawkins - a militant atheist and evolutionist - to be claiming to be a believer in God and creationist as well? Wouldn't you say he couldn't possibly be both? Can't you understand that a (allegedly) Christ-following pagan is just as much of an oxymoron?

 

[Andy S]

Andy S you are using what appears to be a disagreement between Christians as an excuse for you to reject God.

What appears to be a disagreement??? So are you saying that you now agree with Kala83??? This does not "appear" to be a disagreement between the two of you, it is a disagreement between the two of you. No, this disagreement is not an excuse for me to reject God. I mainly reject the Christian God because of the lack of evidence and the ambiguous and vague language concerning various doctrines in His so-called "inspired word".

If you know anything about the bible you already know that the Jews (Old Testament) / Christians (New Testament) are forbidden to use the occult in any form. You are reading the excuses of a very disobedient Christian (assuming she is one but has become terribly self-deceived). The Holy Spirit NEVER would give the OK to use the occult like she currently is.

Yes, I am familiar with the bible. As a secular humanist I am glad that you don't know Kala83 personally. Who knows, depending on your interpretation of the bible you actually might want to kill her since Exodus 22:18 says, "You shall not allow a sorceress to live".

It is apparent to me (and Kala83) that you think it is foolish for her to "use the occult". What is so funny about the bible is that she could come back at you and say that you are in danger of going to hell since Matt. 5:22 says, "...anyone who says, ‘You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." In addition, Matt. 7:1 says, "Do not judge so that you will not be judged".

Would you expect Richard Dawkins - a militant atheist and evolutionist - to be claiming to be a believer in God and creationist as well? Wouldn't you say he couldn't possibly be both? Can't you understand that a (allegedly) Christ-following pagan is just as much of an oxymoron?

Yes, I would say Richard Dawkins couldn't possibly be both. However, I'm not too sure that a "Christ-following pagan" would be an oxymoron since the doctrine of salvation is unclear in the bible and people cherry pick their own ideas out of the bible when it comes to how one should follow Christ. It is entertaining to me that Christians judge one another and damn one another to hell. Joey Downunder, you could lay out your entire formula for salvation and there would be many people on this forum that would disagree with your formula and point to how you are wrong through their interpretation of the bible. That's why there are thousands of Christian denominations. The Holy Spirit is either a horrible communicator or he doesn't exist.

The oxymoron I see is the person who judges another Christian and says what the alleged Christian is doing is foolish but then calls himself a "Christ-follower". My interpretation of Matt. 5:22 is that the "Holy Spirit would never give the OK" to judge another Christian in the way that you judged Kala83.

Doctrinal disputes have always been a problem for Christians. Just look into a little bit of Church history and you will find that Christians excommunicate and kill one another over doctrinal disputes. It is amazing that the all-loving Christian God would allow all these killings amongst one another but then again, I've read the entire bible and know a little about God's character. Well, there is nothing new under the sun and history repeats itself as you have proven to me in your posts to Kala83. I'm just glad you at least live in the new testament era unless you would want to find out where Kala83 lives so you could put her to death like the bible required.

 

[joey_downunder]

I do not expect you to understand Andy S why I am so concerned that a person who claims to be Christian is doing and believing these things clearly condemned in the bible. Jude 1:20-23

If you did you would be a Christian. 2 Corinthians 4:3-5

 

[Andy S]

Joey Downunder, You've gone beyond being "concerned" for Kala83. You crossed the line by hurting her feelings. What you said was "hurtful" and she even posted a sad face in her post #28. What a good verse Jude 1:23 is! Maybe you will be "snatched out of the fire" but only if you apologize to Kala83. Matt. 5:23,24 says, "If you are presenting your offering there before the altar, and there remember that your brother (sister) has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reonciled to your brother (sister)". Unless you think that casting spells is an unforgivable sin then she is still your sister in Christ. You might want to reconcile with her unless "you shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell" (Matt. 5:22)

2 Cor. 4:3-5 is interesting. Listen Joey Downunder, your gospel is "veiled" to me because, first, you haven't given me your gospel. But if you did I'm sure other Christians would claim that it is too inclusive or exclusive. The gospel is "veiled" to me because the Holy Spirit is a horrible communicator and I wouldn't even know which gospel to choose because Christians from all different sects have their differing ambiguous proof texts.

By the way, if you are trying to show me mercy because I am doubting (Jude 1:22), then 2 Cor. 4:3-5 is not a convincing set of verses. I don't think these verses explain a God who is merciful. Instead, He is going to send "the god of this world" (satan I guess) to "blind my mind" so that I "might not see the light of the gospel". Excuse the sarcasm but what a loving God that you worship. What happened to my supposed free will? It is gone because God allowed Satan to "blind my mind".

One last thing. I said I was thankful that you live in the New Testament era so you wouldn't want to kill Kala83. However, I forgot all about the Salem witch trials. If you lived in that time and you played a deciding role in the Salem witch trials, would you kill someone like Kala83 if God told you to?

 

[Daughter of His]

Look to the only one, Christ Jesus, as an example of a Christian. People are people, and they will always disappoint us. We are all works in progress and make mistakes. The eternal place for your soul is what is in question. Don't look to man for answers but to Jesus.

 

[joey_downunder]

Again, Andy S, you do not understand as you are an atheist. *Over and out.*

 

[Andy S]

Again, Andy S, you do not understand as you are an atheist. *Over and out.*

That's OK Joey Downunder. I understand that you don't want to give me your gospel because you know deep down in your heart that the doctrine of salvation is unclear and the Holy Spirit is a horrible communicator. I also understand why you wouldn't answer my last question. I know I put you in a bad position. You would hate to go on record as a "Christ-follower" saying that you might possibly murder an "alleged Christian" who casts spells if God told you to.