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The reason I will never be a Christian

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belleau

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Found this quote and it sums it up perfectly:

“The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”

Read through your own forums without your 'goggles of righteousness' on. Please explain to me why any sane or intelligent person who lives a good and compassionate life, who has been blessed with everything they need and more would choose the path of Christians? Seems to me that all it brings is stupidity, an incredible and false sense of self importance, a excuse to sin and a life filled with problems and issues?
 

jehoiakim

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sadly I must say Amen to the quote...

Yes there are a lot of very immature "Christians". "American Christianity" in particular is quite guilty, materialistic, mislead and sometimes flat our evil or misled. Many profess it because they were raised that way, they have not really committed themselves to the discipleship of it and because we live in a nation with religious liberty much of what they believe and or say goes untested. My suspicion is that if there were persecution or serious trial most of these Christians would fall away from the faith because they have never really understood it to begin with.

I do challenge you though not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I have no doubt there are man Christians who are not as close-minded, ignorant, manipulative, immoral or as self-righteous as you have sadly experienced.

Regardless of how you feel I wish you peace, blessings, mercy and love and fulfillment in all you do.
 
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LBP

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You are throwing out Christ with the bathwater of Christendom. No one in his or her right mind thinks that Christendom (meaning the entire religious/political structure that operates under the banner of "Christianity") has much of anything at all to do with Jesus or his teachings. There is no question that Christendom is as depraved as the non-"Christian" world and that the travesties committed under the banner of Christendom have driven innumerable people into atheism. But that has nothing to do with Jesus, or with you. The relevant question is, "How are YOU going to respond to JESUS?" Simply that.

One actually does encounter people who, on an individual basis, more-or-less live up to Jesus' expectations. They are admittedly fairly rare birds, but they exist and have always existed. If you respond favorably to Jesus, perhaps you will become one of them. But it makes no sense (and is a very large mistake) to say that you are going to reject Jesus because "too many other people" don't live up to what they say they believe.

That being said, I do think it is a fair question to ask why, if the Holy Spirit transforms lives as Christians believe he does, we don't see just a little more evidence of that within Christendom? If an all-powerful, supernatural, transforming spirit were at work, it certainly SEEMS that we would see a little more evidence of it than we do. I often puzzle over this myself.

Addendum: Just in case you didn't realize it (which I likewise didn't), your quotation is from Jesuit theologian Karl Rahner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rahner), not one of the raving New Atheists like Richard Dawkins. The Wikipedia article does a good job of summarizing Rahner's theology, which was far from simplistic.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Hi my Christian life is wonderful, I am certainly not filled with sorrows and difficulties. Before I was a Christian my life was a mess, now it is great. The bible says that the result of know God is to have love, joy and peace in your life. I have experienced all of these things.

Also I would like to bring to your attention the reality of God. I have experienced many miracles, like divine healing, God speaking to me, God telling me future events, many miracles God is both very good to me and very real. See http://www.futureandahope.net to rad about the miracles God has done for me.
 
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belleau

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I sincerely thank you for your thoughtful replies and for taking the time to write to me. One of my quests has always been to find intelligent, articulate, educated Christians, never thought I would find any, perhaps I have been proven wrong? I was watching a debate on Godtube once, and the Christian host said to Christopher Hitchens, that Christianity was for the troubled, the meek for the unintelligent and this blew me away, because it seemed to justify everything I was thinking about Christians and Christianity in general, but now I have to wonder.
Firstly, just to clarify, I am not an atheist, I do believe in God, I suppose I would be classified as a ‘Diest’ My problem doesn’t just lie with Christians and their behaviour, although that is, I admit a big part of it, (know them by their fruits) but some of the Christian teachings as well. The bible was put together by men, there was so much left out and when you read the Gnostic gospels you see why. The Church would not have been able to gain the power it has now if these gospels were included.
I have read the bible, and explored many other spiritual texts over the last 7 years or so, and as I was studying these in a quest for the truth, I came across a startling fact, I do live by the teachings of Jesus Christ, The Buddha and other ‘spiritual leaders’ and have done so for many years. If you study and look closely, the message is the same. I do believe that Jesus walked the earth, but I do not believe that he was the son of God or died for our sins, there is not enough evidence to support this theory. (Please look at the work of scholars such as Bart Ehrman if you have not already done so)
I live by some simple rules:
Give and you shall receive: proven to me time and time again, I give as much as I can to worthy charities and causes, I sometimes make a point of giving more than makes me comfortable and yet, every time as I do, it comes back somehow.
Do unto others as you would have done unto you: I will never say or do anything to anyone that I would not like myself, a very simple philosophy, but one that brings me peace and no conflicts.
Do no harm to any living sentient being: This means all life, I am a vegan. I just cannot justify taking the life of one of God’s creations, putting it through a life of misery just for my greed and gluttony when there is so much healthy, delicious food available to me. I just don’t see myself as that important or that worthy. I don’t feel that I or anyone else has the right to end an innocent life.
Ask and you shall receive: On an average I probably spend 2-3 hours a day communing with nature, meditating/praying and asking for answers. I am always given those answers. For a long time I thought this was ‘The Law of Attraction’ at work, but came to realise that this comes from a much higher source, if you sincerely ask and if that thing you ask for is not based in ego, but is good for all, then you shall receive, and I truly want for nothing.
Do not be of the world: I do not own a television, don’t have facebook, twitter or any other social media platform. The last movie I saw was 11 years ago, I dislike shopping and crowds, I have no ‘idols’ as far as I am concerned there isn’t any celebrity worth admiring. I don’t like the things that everyone else does, I am not interested in fashion, what or who is in, I don’t need things or possessions to make me who I am and I don’t need admiration or accolades from any human.
Do not lie: Everybody lies about everything, from the most mundane things to the very biggest. I do not, I find this quite difficult at times, because I will not tell people what they want to hear and they don’t seem to like it. I will only speak truth. Hence I do not have a lot of ‘friends’ and I have no wish to. I have a close circle of people who understand and live by the same principals as I and that is enough. As a matter of fact, not lying to people causes them to get very upset! So better to not communicate!
I will not go on because this post is getting too long, but in a nutshell, I truly feel that I do know God, and that my blessings in life have come to me and my family because of these principles that I/we live by. So I look at Christians and Christianity and cannot help but to see the pain and misery it causes. Have you ever considered that it could possibly be wrong? That all you need is a personal relationship with the Creator? To not be told you were born bad? That you can’t help it? After many years of research and soul searching, this is the only conclusion that I can come to. I am not saved, I don't worship Jesus although I greatly admire his beautiful teachings, I do not go to church (believe me I have been to many!)and I don’t need some uneducated, ignorant man standing at a pulpit telling me right from wrong. My heart tells me that. Can you see my point? Why then should I embrace Christianity?
 
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tulipbee

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Found this quote and it sums it up perfectly:

“The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”

Read through your own forums without your 'goggles of righteousness' on. Please explain to me why any sane or intelligent person who lives a good and compassionate life, who has been blessed with everything they need and more would choose the path of Christians? Seems to me that all it brings is stupidity, an incredible and false sense of self importance, a excuse to sin and a life filled with problems and issues?

All men have reasons why they don't want to be Christians as stated straight from the Bible alone without men's interpretations:

The sinful man:
  • cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
  • is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
  • does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11).
  • is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).
 
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manitouscott

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Hello!

Whether or not you have a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ, you show many attributes that christians aspire to posess. You know that a lot of those teachings come from the bible and it is the work of the spirit that really allows us to bring forth much fruit.

Thank you for your post, it is inspiring!
 
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Mediaeval

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There are many reasons why. So that you may know God as He has uniquely revealed Himself in Jesus Christ, so that you know the great love He has for you and how He has sacrificed for you, so that you may also love others and sacrifice yourself for them. So that you may recognize yourself as a sinner and so be forgiven and so also be able to forgive and bear with others, even those who fail to live up to their own high calling.
 
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dhh712

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Found this quote and it sums it up perfectly:

“The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”

I agree completely with the quote. People who claim they are Christians but lead ungodly lives are blaspheming the name of God. It is a disgrace and can definitely be a prominent secondary cause for how widespread atheism has become. In trying to make sense of it all, I see the rise of modern conveniences and the comforts of modern society as a cause for the waning of the spirit in many Christians; being called to God means to suffer and who wants to do that? It is much easier to turn back to the world and all the physical comforts it offers. Yet it is all speculation. By my faith I understand the actual reason is that this is His will and it is all to the glorification of His name in some way.

Please explain to me why any sane or intelligent person who lives a good and compassionate life, who has been blessed with everything they need and more would choose the path of Christians? Seems to me that all it brings is stupidity, an incredible and false sense of self importance, a excuse to sin and a life filled with problems and issues?

If someone has everything they need in this world and more then it is likley they will not become converted for the world becomes fulfilling to them. And no one chooses their belief upon God. Only He enables that to happen. And for it to instill a feeling of self-importance is impossible. It can only instill of feeling of incredible humility.

I'm not sure which version of Christianity you've been exposed to--there seems to be a rampancy of the humanity-based version in which believers of this sort want to make God work for them. The Christianity of Scripture is God-centered though. His Sovereignty reigns over all and when one is converted by the Christian God of Scripture, they will no longer feel the need to petition God for what He will do for them but will understand that they have been placed upon this earth for His purpose and will do whatever He wills of them for Him.
 
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Faulty

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Found this quote and it sums it up perfectly:

“The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”

Read through your own forums without your 'goggles of righteousness' on. Please explain to me why any sane or intelligent person who lives a good and compassionate life, who has been blessed with everything they need and more would choose the path of Christians? Seems to me that all it brings is stupidity, an incredible and false sense of self importance, a excuse to sin and a life filled with problems and issues?

That quote is nothing more than an excuse to reject God because our fellow men are also sinful like we are.

No one will be justified before God because they liked or disliked others who call themselves Christians, neither will any have an excuse for not turning from their own sins due to the acts of other people. It's a failing attempt to pass blame.
 
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jehoiakim

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I sincerely thank you for your thoughtful replies and for taking the time to write to me. One of my quests has always been to find intelligent, articulate, educated Christians, never thought I would find any, perhaps I have been proven wrong? I was watching a debate on Godtube once, and the Christian host said to Christopher Hitchens, that Christianity was for the troubled, the meek for the unintelligent and this blew me away, because it seemed to justify everything I was thinking about Christians and Christianity in general, but now I have to wonder.
Firstly, just to clarify, I am not an atheist, I do believe in God, I suppose I would be classified as a ‘Diest’ My problem doesn’t just lie with Christians and their behaviour, although that is, I admit a big part of it, (know them by their fruits) but some of the Christian teachings as well. The bible was put together by men, there was so much left out and when you read the Gnostic gospels you see why. The Church would not have been able to gain the power it has now if these gospels were included.
I have read the bible, and explored many other spiritual texts over the last 7 years or so, and as I was studying these in a quest for the truth, I came across a startling fact, I do live by the teachings of Jesus Christ, The Buddha and other ‘spiritual leaders’ and have done so for many years. If you study and look closely, the message is the same. I do believe that Jesus walked the earth, but I do not believe that he was the son of God or died for our sins, there is not enough evidence to support this theory. (Please look at the work of scholars such as Bart Ehrman if you have not already done so)
I live by some simple rules:
Give and you shall receive: proven to me time and time again, I give as much as I can to worthy charities and causes, I sometimes make a point of giving more than makes me comfortable and yet, every time as I do, it comes back somehow.
Do unto others as you would have done unto you: I will never say or do anything to anyone that I would not like myself, a very simple philosophy, but one that brings me peace and no conflicts.
Do no harm to any living sentient being: This means all life, I am a vegan. I just cannot justify taking the life of one of God’s creations, putting it through a life of misery just for my greed and gluttony when there is so much healthy, delicious food available to me. I just don’t see myself as that important or that worthy. I don’t feel that I or anyone else has the right to end an innocent life.
Ask and you shall receive: On an average I probably spend 2-3 hours a day communing with nature, meditating/praying and asking for answers. I am always given those answers. For a long time I thought this was ‘The Law of Attraction’ at work, but came to realise that this comes from a much higher source, if you sincerely ask and if that thing you ask for is not based in ego, but is good for all, then you shall receive, and I truly want for nothing.
Do not be of the world: I do not own a television, don’t have facebook, twitter or any other social media platform. The last movie I saw was 11 years ago, I dislike shopping and crowds, I have no ‘idols’ as far as I am concerned there isn’t any celebrity worth admiring. I don’t like the things that everyone else does, I am not interested in fashion, what or who is in, I don’t need things or possessions to make me who I am and I don’t need admiration or accolades from any human.
Do not lie: Everybody lies about everything, from the most mundane things to the very biggest. I do not, I find this quite difficult at times, because I will not tell people what they want to hear and they don’t seem to like it. I will only speak truth. Hence I do not have a lot of ‘friends’ and I have no wish to. I have a close circle of people who understand and live by the same principals as I and that is enough. As a matter of fact, not lying to people causes them to get very upset! So better to not communicate!
I will not go on because this post is getting too long, but in a nutshell, I truly feel that I do know God, and that my blessings in life have come to me and my family because of these principles that I/we live by. So I look at Christians and Christianity and cannot help but to see the pain and misery it causes. Have you ever considered that it could possibly be wrong? That all you need is a personal relationship with the Creator? To not be told you were born bad? That you can’t help it? After many years of research and soul searching, this is the only conclusion that I can come to. I am not saved, I don't worship Jesus although I greatly admire his beautiful teachings, I do not go to church (believe me I have been to many!)and I don’t need some uneducated, ignorant man standing at a pulpit telling me right from wrong. My heart tells me that. Can you see my point? Why then should I embrace Christianity?

I think that part of the problem is that most people are simple minded and I do not mean that as an insult, but they are overwhelmed by to much question and they are actually unable to understand deeper thoughts because they cannot see through the theological box they have put God into. But we must remember, they have, faith like a child and God can be honored by that. You get to a point where once you start asking questions you realize for every question you ask there are several answers, some right, some wrong, many a mixture and for each one of those answers there are at least dozens of more questions that are raised for every possibility you choose. Those people are in every faith, and every group of people, but when you are in the western world when most people are raised Christian by default, they don' think about it, they don't question, they are not really challenged then you see a lot of hypocritical shallow Christianity. I have no doubt that if you lived in asia you would see the same thing with Buddhism, or Hinduism because that is a cultural thing. People are simple some of them because they are unable to question but many because they are lazy, so that is where patience comes in and we need to meet people where they are at. As Paul said he would be all things to all people.

I would say however I personally do not see anything of interest in gnosticism, I feel a lot of it contradicts the Torah, and being that Jesus was a Torah observant Jew and a lot of gnostic theology seems suspiciously greek philosophically and not middle eastern it makes me quite suspicious of it when people claim it is what Jesus really meant. But then Gnosticism is a very broad subject that includes a lot of differing opinions. As for the Jesus not being God incarnate, I don't know much about Bart Ehrman, but his credentials look quite impressive as I know all the schools he attended well, while I respect Bruce Metzger I do not have a lot of love for Princeton Thelogical Seminary. For as many qualified experts are there are out there to talk about this subject there are just as many on the other side if not more. I have not spent half my life learning about this particular topic so to argue against anyone on either side regardless of who is right and who is wrong would probably cause me to look like a fool. What concerns me though is that if you don't believe there is enough evidence for Christ being God himself then you have to dump and question a lot of scriptural context as man made. If you do that then how do you determine what parts of what we know about Jesus are real and what parts are made up? Do you just use your own logic, because chances are your emotions are playing a role and when a particular issue comes up and you have your own strong feelings you are going to have a bias when you look at the information before you. You are going to be by default creating God in your own image consciously or unconsciously
 
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Harry3142

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belleau-

Christianity has a code of conduct which some who claim to be Christians choose to ignore. But it is this code which determines whether our faith is genuine:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

The actions and motivations listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' are the original nature which all of us are born with. Some of those motivations may be subdued because of familial and societal restrictions as we grow up, but they are still there, nonetheless. And just as a poisoned tree cannot yield good fruit, no action which has any of these motivations as its impetus can be identified as anything other than evil.

For our actions to have assurance of being 'in synch' with what God wants of us, the underlying cause for those actions must also be 'in synch' with what God wants of us. And in order for that to take place, the motivations which culminate in our actions must be those listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit'. It is only when these motivations are the impetus for our actions that the actions conform to God's will. Just we we can identify the motivations listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' as being the cause of all sinful acts, we can also identify the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' as being the cause of all righteous acts.

I hope this helps you better comprehend Christianity. God bless-
 
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Lollerskates

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Found this quote and it sums it up perfectly:

“The number one cause of atheism is Christians. Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”

Read through your own forums without your 'goggles of righteousness' on. Please explain to me why any sane or intelligent person who lives a good and compassionate life, who has been blessed with everything they need and more would choose the path of Christians? Seems to me that all it brings is stupidity, an incredible and false sense of self importance, a excuse to sin and a life filled with problems and issues?

Christ said the same thing, bro. He hates hypocrites as much - if not more - than your average atheist. Christ was also a "man against the machine" - He hated organized religion. He preached the Body of Christ, as each human being being living temples of God - no need for a Church, and most certainly no need for dogma and religion, as it were. The only thing needed is Truth.

A sane and intelligent person who lives a "good," and compassionate life, who has been blessed with everything they need and more would become Christian because of exactly what you said. If this person recognizes that those things s/he is blessed with - including compassion, sanity and intelligence, did not come on his/her own accord, but came because s/he was blessed with these things, then that is the first step to recognizing that there is something beyond the individual that is working for the person. The next step is assessing and discerning Truth. Knowing that Christianity (and even Hebrew) is unique in that it recognizes that humans are not good in a holy (perfect spiritual) sense, but can be atoned for by the Most High God - because He claims to love the person - is a huge deal, and something worth meditating upon.

Most other religions rely on one's own power for "enlightenment," which is somewhat problematic if we already acknowledge that forces greater than us influence our lives on an grand scale. For example, no human (save Christ - as per my belief) created a star. Yet, the sun has the power to utterly destroy life, or sustain it - no matter how much "enlightenment" a person has. The very fact that a star has this power greater than me is enough for me to seek outside relationship with that something greater than me. (In many cases, people in history and in the contemporary have done this very thing: hence, sun-worship, as well as moon-worship.) That is the least one can do.

Now, as far as the "good" thing, I don't think any human is "good." Why not? Well, let's see: do you give all of your money to the poor without worry of where you will get your blessings? Do you help every old lady cross the street? Do you encourage every person - even your enemies - in daily life? Do you call out evil every time you see it? Do you protest for the good of humanity on all occasions? Do you take care of your body all of the time? Do you console every human you see in tears, pain, or in trouble? Do you love everyone? Being "good" would mean meeting these - and many other minimum qualifications that all humans should do all of the time. It is only when you do these things all of the time, and consistently can anyone be called good. Some people may call it divine, but being divine is much more than the basic humane and compassionate things I listed. That was the point Christ was making to the man that called Him a "good master": "Why are you calling me good? There is none good but God." It is because 1) He was testing the guy to see if he knew who he was talking to (since Christ did do those minimum basic humane things, and much more, and 2) so that the guy recognize God does these things for everyone - evil and good, and also blesses His people spiritually.

I used to be agnostic; I knew there was something, and I didn't want to just follow my family's beliefs just because. Then I became Christian (a very sloppy one i.e. belief I had a free pass to sin as long as I believed,) then I became a scientist, then I became a stereotypical "self-flogging" Christian ("punishing myself for every sin,") to now where I am just beginning to understand faith and love God has for us, and reconciling my relationship with Him. That took decades. I do think you are asking a question (or at least are in the direction) with which all people should start . I would advise you to never say never; God tends to make it a point to prove to you how fleeting "never" really is (especially if you are coming from an honest heart.) :D
 
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aiki

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Found this quote and it sums it up perfectly:

“The number one cause of atheism is Christians.
And how was this determined, exactly? I doubt very much that this is true. This is rhetoric, not fact.

Those who proclaim Him with their mouths and deny Him with their actions is what an unbelieving world finds unbelievable.”
I'm sure this is at least partly true. But what about those believers who do walk the talk? Shall we talk about them? Or is this a trash-Christians-only thread?

Read through your own forums without your 'goggles of righteousness' on. Please explain to me why any sane or intelligent person who lives a good and compassionate life, who has been blessed with everything they need and more would choose the path of Christians?
This only ever happens because God has made it happen. Sometimes He has to do so in spite of the example of His children and sometimes their example aids His redeeming efforts.

Seems to me that all it brings is stupidity, an incredible and false sense of self importance, a excuse to sin and a life filled with problems and issues?
This hasn't been my experience.

Selah.
 
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Francois Mostert

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belleau

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After spending some time pondering your replies, one very simple thing that I missed came to mind, and thank you for pointing it out. I came to the conclusion that I have never in my 48 years met an actual Christian. I’ve known plenty who say they are Christians, I was raised an orthodox Christian, grew up going to church 3 times a week , I’ve since been to many churches of different denominations, I’ve had pastors in my home, I’ve spent 3 entire months in the US with a family of devout Christians and I have to say their lifestyle and behaviour horrified me. I couldn’t wait to get home to enjoy some peace, morality and intelligent conversations with my non believing friends. So in a nutshell, I guess I was basing my opinion on the entire Christian religion on those experiences, but I realised anyone can say they are anything without actually meaning it or living it. It is just a label they put on themselves. It’s a shame, because I do believe that the behaviour of ‘Christians’ is one of the major causes of atheism.
Aiki said ‘I'm sure this is at least partly true. But what about those believers who do walk the talk? Shall we talk about them? Or is this a trash-Christians-only thread?
I am not out to trash anyone, and unfortunately like I said I have never met a Christian ‘who walks the talk’. However, I’ve now come to the conclusion that it doesn’t matter. I can’t base my opinions of a philosophy/religion based on the people who follow it (or more to the point people who say they follow it!)
In saying all this, can I ask your opinions on this: what is the need for fellowship or to belong to a church? Can one be a Christian without these rituals? I do have many other questions, but I would love to hear your answers on this.
 
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