The Reason Cornelius Received the HS in Acts 10. (moved from soteriology)

[jmacvols]

The assertion that the Baptism of Christ no longer occurs is unbiblical.

Considering the accounts of the great commission, Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16; Lk 24:47 we find that the baptism of the great commission:

--was for all nations, every creature, this is not true with baptism of the HS, promised only to apostles, Acts 1:1-5

--for remission of sins & a promise for the Jews and those afar off (Genitles) Acts 2:38,39, not true for baptism for the HS.

--it had human administrators and humans can only administer water baptism, not true for baptaism with the HS

--it was commanded, no one was every commanded to be baptized with the baptism of the HS, thus it cannot be obeyed.

--it was used to make disciples, not true with baptism with the HS

--last till the end of the world, not true with baptism with the HS. Baptism with HS was a prophecy of Joel that was fulfiilled by Christ making it an obsolete baptism, Acts 2:16. See also Mt 5:17,18.

All born again believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit sent by Jesus, the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit was promised to the apostles, no one else. This baptism is also obsolete having been fulfilled by Christ.

The assertion that water baptism was not commanded by Jesus before His crucification is unbiblical. In John 4:1 scripture says the disciples were making disciples and baptizing more than John, and so the Great commission simply reiterates what Jesus had already taught His disciples to do.

Water baptism of the great commission was commanded, Lk 24:47 > Acts 2:38.

There is absolutely no actual support for the idea that water baptism is necessary for salvation in scripture. That is why the advocates offer up so many falsehoods.

Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7; Gal 3:27; show that water baptism is commanded, it remits sins, puts one "in Christ", justifies where one can walk in newness of life. These things occur only in water baptism, and if these things are necessary for salvation (which they are) then that implies water baptism is also necessary. Belief alone, baptism with the HS, saying a "sinners prayer" cannot accomplish any these things.

 

[jmacvols]

You need to make the distinction between ones who are saved and ones who don't need to be saved, just redeemed.


Luke 5:32 . . " . . . They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The Pharisees saw themselves as being so righteous that they tho't they did not need a physician. Those who can acknowledge themselves as being sick with sin need a physician.

Did Corneilus need to repent? Was he not already a righteous person and those with him? Wherefore it was stated he was righteous, therefore you can rightly conclude he was justified and redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb before peter got there as evidenced by the vision. Enter Peter to explain who his redeemer was and before he spoke, Pentecost happened and disciples were made to Christ.

Everyone has to repent of their sins if they desire to be saved. Cornelius is called "righteous" ACts 10:22, yet he was righteous in a comparative sense. He was righteouse compared to the other Genitles around him. Lot was called righteous, righteous compared to those around him in Sodom. Even though Cornelius was called "righteous", he was still lost in sin, he was not perfect. He had to hear the gospel to be saved, thus the Lord sent Peter unto him to preach "words whereby thy and thou house shall be saved".

Sinners need to be converted, repent and cry out to God for their salvation, which is by the Grace of God through their faith upon hearing the word. . . if they hear it to believe it. . . .

Sinners need to believe, Jn 3:16, repent, Lk 13:3,5, confess with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10 and be baptized, Acts 2:38.

 

[Ormly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
You need to make the distinction between ones who are saved and ones who don't need to be saved, just redeemed.


Luke 5:32 . . " . . . They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The Pharisees saw themselves as being so righteous that they tho't they did not need a physician.

What’s wrong with you? Who is speaking of the Pharisees? Jesus’ remarks pertain to the truly righteous who need no physician.

Those who can acknowledge themselves as being sick with sin need a physician.

What does that have to do with anything Jesus said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ormly
Did Corneilus need to repent? Was he not already a righteous person and those with him? Wherefore it was stated he was righteous, therefore you can rightly conclude he was justified and redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb before peter got there as evidenced by the vision. Enter Peter to explain who his redeemer was and before he spoke, Pentecost happened and disciples were made to Christ.

Everyone has to repent of their sins if they desire to be saved. Cornelius is called "righteous" ACts 10:22, yet he was righteous in a comparative sense. He was righteouse compared to the other Genitles around him. Lot was called righteous, righteous compared to those around him in Sodom. Even though Cornelius was called "righteous", he was still lost in sin, he was not perfect. He had to hear the gospel to be saved, thus the Lord sent Peter unto him to preach "words whereby thy and thou house shall be saved".

Cornelius was a righteous man justified by his faith in God. In other words, he had already repented, past tense. I would imagine he was very much like Job in that regard. Do you really want to argue that point?? Consequently, the Lord appeared to him in a dream that he might not only learn the source of his redemption and salvation but that he might be endued with power from on high that he might function as a Apostle to the gentiles. Would you argue that?
Mr. You made the unkind remark that none here had a clue. You need to take stock of your own scriptural understanding before casting such stones because it is you who are displaying a huge lack of it. . . . elementary stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ormly
Sinners need to be converted, repent and cry out to God for their salvation, which is by the Grace of God through their faith upon hearing the word. . . if they hear it to believe it. . . .

Sinners need to believe, Jn 3:16, repent, Lk 13:3,5, confess with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10 and be baptized, Acts 2:38.

Cornelius was righteous man justified by faith in God; in need only of redemption. Do you know what that means? Do you how to arrive at that understanding found in the scriptures?

 

[jmacvols]

What’s wrong with you? Who is speaking of the Pharisees? Jesus’ remarks pertain to the truly righteous who need no physician.

What does that have to do with anything Jesus said?

In Lk 5:29,30, the scribes and Pharisees saw themselves in their own eyes as being righteous. Thus Jesus says in v31,32 He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. No one is so righteous that they do not need to hear the gospel message and obey it. These Pharisees saw themsleves, a self-perception, that they were already righteous and did not need Jesus' message. Jesus could not "heal" them as long as they tho't they needed no healing. Those that recognize they are sick with sin realize they need a physician to heal them, yet these Pharisees did not recongnize this about themselves.

Cornelius was a righteous man justified by his faith in God. In other words, he had already repented, past tense. I would imagine he was very much like Job in that regard. Do you really want to argue that point?? Consequently, the Lord appeared to him in a dream that he might not only learn the source of his redemption and salvation but that he might be endued with power from on high that he might function as a Apostle to the gentiles. Would you argue that?
Mr. You made the unkind remark that none here had a clue. You need to take stock of your own scriptural understanding before casting such stones because it is you who are displaying a huge lack of it. . . . elementary stuff.

You have Cornelius being saved apart from the gospel, before Peter told him the words whereby he and his house shall be saved. Again, Cornelius was called righteous comparative to other Gentiles.

In what verse in Acts 10 do you think Cornelius is "saved"?

Cornelius was righteous man justified by faith in God; in need only of redemption. Do you know what that means? Do you how to arrive at that understanding found in the scriptures?

Those that are righteous/justified are the ones that are redeemed. One cannot be one(righteous/justified) without the other (redeemed).

 

[Ormly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
What’s wrong with you? Who is speaking of the Pharisees? Jesus’ remarks pertain to the truly righteous who need no physician.

What does that have to do with anything Jesus said?

In Lk 5:29,30, the scribes and Pharisees saw themselves in their own eyes as being righteous. Thus Jesus says in v31,32 He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I don’t care who was in His presence. It makes no ‘never mind’ to this discussion.

No one is so righteous that they do not need to hear the gospel message and obey it.

Then your argument is with Jesus and not me.

These Pharisees saw themsleves, a self-perception, that they were already righteous and did not need Jesus' message. Jesus could not "heal" them as long as they tho't they needed no healing. Those that recognize they are sick with sin realize they need a physician to heal them, yet these Pharisees did not recongnize this about themselves.

Off topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by ormly
Cornelius was a righteous man justified by his faith in God. In other words, he had already repented, past tense. I would imagine he was very much like Job in that regard. Do you really want to argue that point?? Consequently, the Lord appeared to him in a dream that he might not only learn the source of his redemption and salvation but that he might be endued with power from on high that he might function as a Apostle to the gentiles. Would you argue that?
Mr. You made the unkind remark that none here had a clue. You need to take stock of your own scriptural understanding before casting such stones because it is you who are displaying a huge lack of it. . . . elementary stuff.

You have Cornelius being saved apart from the gospel, before Peter told him the words whereby he and his house shall be saved.

That’s true, and there is no “whereby” in this account. Righteous Cornelius and his company were already saved. Remember the above words of Jesus?
Have you actuality read the account? Peter didn’t have a chance to speak . . . before the Pentecostal thing happened. Question: Do you know anyone who got saved after their Pentecostal baptism? I don’t. There is no doubt in my mind that Peter, after all calmed down, had a meal with them and explained it all to them, expounding the word of Lord more clearly to them.

Again, Cornelius was called righteous comparative to other Gentiles.

And??

In what verse in Acts 10 do you think Cornelius is "saved"?

A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. Acts 10;1-4

That should be proof enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ormly
Cornelius was righteous man justified by faith in God; in need only of redemption. Do you know what that means? Do you how to arrive at that understanding found in the scriptures?

Those that are righteous/justified are the ones that are redeemed. One cannot be one(righteous/justified) without the other (redeemed).

You have the cart before the horse, my Friend. Think about it a little longer.

Peace

 

[jmacvols]

I don’t care who was in His presence. It makes no ‘never mind’ to this discussion.

I believe it helps to know what is said, by whom it is said, to whom it said & why it was said to understand context.

Then your argument is with Jesus and not me.

Off topic

??????

That’s true, and there is no “whereby” in this account.

Acts 11:14 "whereby thou and all they house shall be saved."

Righteous Cornelius and his company were already saved. Remember the above words of Jesus?

I tho't they were "off topic".?.?

Have you actuality read the account?

Many times.

] Peter didn’t have a chance to speak . . . before the Pentecostal thing happened.

Let me get this straight, you believe one can be saved before they hear and obey the gospel??

Question: Do you know anyone who got saved after their Pentecostal baptism? I don’t.

If you mean baptism with the HS by "Pentecostal baptism", then I know of no one personally that has received this baptism, it has been obsolete some 2,000 years.

There is no doubt in my mind that Peter, after all calmed down, had a meal with them and explained it all to them, expounding the word of Lord more clearly to them.

Acts 11:14 plainly says that Corenlius would be saved by words Peter would tell him. Therefore baptism with the HS had nothing to do with Cornelius' personal salvation.

And??

????

A

devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. Acts 10;1-4

That should be proof enough.




You have the cart before the horse, my Friend. Think about it a little longer.

Peace

Cornelius was a devout man and feared God, but he was still lost. In the first couple verses of Acts 10 Cornelius had never heard the gospel, he was lost. So again I ask, you believe people can be saved apart from the gospel??

 

[Ormly]

I believe it helps to know what is said, by whom it is said, to whom it said & why it was said to understand context.



??????





Acts 11:14 "whereby thou and all they house shall be saved."



I tho't they were "off topic".?.?


Many times.



Let me get this straight, you believe one can be saved before they hear and obey the gospel??



If you mean baptism with the HS by "Pentecostal baptism", then I know of no one personally that has received this baptism, it has been obsolete some 2,000 years.



Acts 11:14 plainly says that Corenlius would be saved by words Peter would tell him. Therefore baptism with the HS had nothing to do with Cornelius' personal salvation.



????




Cornelius was a devout man and feared God, but he was still lost. In the first couple verses of Acts 10 Cornelius had never heard the gospel, he was lost. So again I ask, you believe people can be saved apart from the gospel??

I don't believe you and me are reading the same Bible.

I'm done.

 

[Apollos1]

jmacvols -

If he is done - stick a fork in him.

Very good job! I regret my patience is currently on "E".
I am working on that.

Again - you did an excellent job exemplifying the truth here.

I will do better patience-wise with my new post that I am putting up in just a few minutes.

 

[synger]

Moved from Soteriology to Sacramental/Ordinance Theology

 

[Schroeder]

Acts 10: Why did Cornelius and household receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized with water?

The HS was given to Cornelius (& family) to CONFIRM God’s word that the Gentiles were to receive salvation - not to save them!
Now I will prove just this…

The affirmation of this is found in Acts 15:7-9…

Verse 7 - …that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word and believe.
(FAITH comes by hearing the WORD !! The reason Cornelius sent for Peter – to HEAR words. Cf. Acts 10:22,33,44, 11:14.)

Why did he not say hear the word and believe and be water baptized. As you say faith comes by hearing the word in rom 10:8-117 it speaks of this. funny it doesnt speak of water baptism. Notice in acts 10:37-38 that it says YOU KNOW OF Jesus ..... I notice you put in verses 22,33,44, 11:14. you also didnt but in the next verse in acts 11:16 "and i remembered the word of the lord, how he used to say John baptized with water BUT you will be baptized with the holy Spirit." i find it odd he would say this if it was JUST to make a point to the jews on this piticuliar moment.

Verse 8 – And God – bare them WITNESS, giving them the HS…
By giving the Gentiles the HS (a miracle), God gave His witness to Peter and those Jews with him that the words Cornelius said in Acts 10:30-33 were true ! This is God’s confirmation of His word!

You didnt put in the words and GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART, testified TO THEM giving them the Spirit. which i believe is saying he showing that THEY are saved. So he gave them the spirit to show they were true believers. I believe you left this out becasue it shows God looks at the heart and knows a true believer and doesnt need outward actions to know if we truelly believe or not. this is what the jews were actually doing. saying that you need to become a jew first. That there were steps needed to acguire God forgiveness. You say God gave his witness to peter but the passage says he TESTIFIED TO THEM(the gentiles)

God already used a miracle (the vision) 3 times in Acts 10:9-16 in an attempt to confirm to Peter His truth that the Gentiles also were to receive salvation. (Please compare to Heb. 2:3-4, Acts 14:3, & Acts 2:22.)

these dont help your arguement at all.

Verse 9 – There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. God has cleansed their (Gentile) hearts by faith – the same faith that cleansed the Jews.

true through faith and or belief in Christ. just as acts 10:43 says " .. that through his name everyone who BELIEVES inHim receives forgiveness of sins." You know why becasue Christ ALREADY did what was needed to deal with the sin issue. Heb. 10:10,12,18.

It was this faith that caused Cornelius & household to be obedient to the COMMAND of Peter as read in Acts 10:47-48 – BAPTISM in the name (by the authority) of Jesus Christ – which is in water, and for the remission of sins – Acts 2:38.

Of course it doesnt say they were to do it for the remission of sins. acts 2:38 doesnt either. It doesnt work to read certain passages literaly and others not. context is sort of important. To interpret acts 2:38 like this is ignoring the rest of scripture

Cornelius’ receiving of the HS was not to save him – it was to confirm God’s word, just as other miracles did in NT times.

NOpe. it was to give him a new birth. This also brought what Christ did on the cross into him which is what saved him. remember there is nothing we can do to be saved. its the work of God, its called GRACE. when we are in Christ we are also in his death and ressurection, thats what saves us. God seeing christ in us and not just our flesh.

Additional:

Acts 11:15 we learn from Peter that the HS fell on Cornelius “as I began to speak” – this was at the beginning of Peter’s words to Cornelius. Was Cornelius saved BEFORE he had faith, because faith comes from hearing the word! So if he was saved when Cornelius received the HS, he was saved BEFORE hearing God’s word, BEFORE he had faith, and BEFORE water baptism. Who can believe such?

again you forgot he or they already knew of Christ. verses 38-39 tells us this. It only means that while he was speaking they began to understand and believe that Christ was there saviour. Apparently God can seeing how he said he ACCEPTED them and gave them the SPirit BECAUSE HE SAW THERE HEARTS. there is no point in seeing there hearts if it was just for show.

 

[Schroeder]

Hearing is necessary to bring about faith, Rom 10:14-17. Peter was sent to Cornelius to tell him words (the gospel-not baptism with the Holy Spirit) whereby he shall be saved, Acts 11:14;10:22. Peter preaching the gospel, Cornelius hearing that gospel and obeying it is how Cornelius shall be saved....same as the Jews in Acts 2. So the context tells us Cornelius would be saved by "words", not by being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

of Course in 1 cor 1:17 it says ForChrist did not send me to baptize BUT to preach the gospel, so that the cross would not be made void. which is what your theology teaches i am afraid. it always implies that water baptism and the gospel are two different things. no he is saved by ACCEPTING the gospel of the Cross. he knew about Jesus and his life, he didnt understand the need of his death for his sins. And this whole Spirit baptism isnt commanded therefore isnt real is nonsense. FOR ONE its is God that gives us the Spirit so there is no need to command it. our sins were dealt with already once for all through the work of Christ on the Cross. We cannot save ourselves or doanything for forgiveness of sins. Chirst did this for us. What unites us to this work is the SPirit of christ immersed into us. just like a cloth immersed in dye makes the dye be immersed into the cloth and made one in a sense. So when we believe we are given the SPriit and are immersed INTO Christ and if we are immersed INTO chirst we will be immersed INTO his work or death and ressurection. Which is how we are saved and forgiven, because God sees christ in us and his work. this is what Rom 6 is about. being reborn, going from our sinful nature to our spirtual nature through christ. which is why it says we will no longer be slaves to sin but ALIVE to God in Christ Jesus. ROm 6 is speaking of why we cannot live in our sinfull nature anymore, becasue of we are immersed with Christ christ is part of us and since he died to sin so did we. I am totally amazed at how you do not get this.

 

[Ormly]

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say we are to go out and get people saved. Folks who believe that are mistaken. Jesus and Paul went out preaching the Kingdom of God.

 

[Schroeder]

Why did he not say hear the word and believe and be water baptized. As you say faith comes by hearing the word in rom 10:8-117 it speaks of this. funny it doesnt speak of water baptism. Notice in acts 10:37-38 that it says YOU KNOW OF Jesus ..... I notice you put in verses 22,33,44, 11:14. you also didnt but in the next verse in acts 11:16 "and i remembered the word of the lord, how he used to say John baptized with water BUT you will be baptized with the holy Spirit." i find it odd he would say this if it was JUST to make a point to the jews on this piticuliar moment.
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You didnt put in the words and GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART, testified TO THEM giving them the Spirit. which i believe is saying he showing that THEY are saved. So he gave them the spirit to show they were true believers. I believe you left this out becasue it shows God looks at the heart and knows a true believer and doesnt need outward actions to know if we truelly believe or not. this is what the jews were actually doing. saying that you need to become a jew first. That there were steps needed to acguire God forgiveness. You say God gave his witness to peter but the passage says he TESTIFIED TO THEM(the gentiles)

these dont help your arguement at all.

true through faith and or belief in Christ. just as acts 10:43 says " .. that through his name everyone who BELIEVES inHim receives forgiveness of sins." You know why becasue Christ ALREADY did what was needed to deal with the sin issue. Heb. 10:10,12,18.

Of course it doesnt say they were to do it for the remission of sins. acts 2:38 doesnt either. It doesnt work to read certain passages literaly and others not. context is sort of important. To interpret acts 2:38 like this is ignoring the rest of scripture
NOpe. it was to give him a new birth. This also brought what Christ did on the cross into him which is what saved him. remember there is nothing we can do to be saved. its the work of God, its called GRACE. when we are in Christ we are also in his death and ressurection, thats what saves us. God seeing christ in us and not just our flesh.

again you forgot he or they already knew of Christ. verses 38-39 tells us this. It only means that while he was speaking they began to understand and believe that Christ was there saviour. Apparently God can seeing how he said he ACCEPTED them and gave them the SPirit BECAUSE HE SAW THERE HEARTS. there is no point in seeing there hearts if it was just for show.

Dont want apollos To think he can go without a response.

 

[Apollos1]

Schroeder –

I have not visited this thread in over a month. I am glad I caught your note…

Schroeder asked - Why did he [Peter in Acts 10] not say hear the word and believe and be water baptized.

Odd question, for that is what took place - Peter preached WORDS to Cornelius, and the result was that Cornelius was (water) BAPTIZED.

SCHROEDER - As you say faith comes by hearing the word in rom 10:8-117 it speaks of this. funny it doesnt speak of water baptism.
Romans 10:17 speaks about how FAITH comes from the Word, and other passages speak about water BAPTISM or repentance, etc. “Funny” you haven’t noticed that and that the truth on any single subject is not contained in just one verse.

SCHROEDER - Notice in acts 10:37-38 that it says YOU KNOW OF Jesus ..... I notice you put in verses 22,33,44, 11:14. you also didnt but in the next verse in acts 11:16 "and i remembered the word of the lord, how he used to say John baptized with water BUT you will be baptized with the holy Spirit." i find it odd he would say this if it was JUST to make a point to the jews on this piticuliar moment.

Your inferences that I am deliberately leaving out certain words and phrases to make my points, will not produce enough “smoke” to have effect here. I have made my case thoroughly! Acts 10:22,33,44, and 11:14 are included to show specifically that Cornelius was to be saved through the WORDSthat would be preached to him by Peter – faith and salvation would not be possible PRIOR to hearing these words from Peter and was not accomplished by some operation of the HS. To say that the HS directly effected salvation in Acts 10 must be read into the passage. Acts 10:37-38 was not included by me in my previous post because it does not address either a point of faith or salvation. If Cornelius had heard of Jesus, something was still lacking and this is why Peter was required to visit him – cf. Acts 10:20, 11:14.
In Acts 11:16 Peter mentions his remembrance of the promise to the apostles and how the apostles were going to receive HS baptism. What is your point, if you have one?

SCHROEDER - You didnt put in the words [Acts 15:8] and GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART, testified TO THEM giving them the Spirit.

Have you figured out yet WHAT God “bare witness” about – and to WHOM God gave that witness??? Once you do this, then you will know WHY God did what He did in Acts 10.
Peter explains that the giving of the HS (a miracle) to the Gentiles was God’s witness TO THE JEWS – but WITNESS of what? THAT THE GENTILES ALSO HAD BEEN GRANTED REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE.

Was it “witness” that the Gentiles received faith? – NO!
Was it “witness” that the Gentiles had already received salvation? – NO!
And nothing from Acts 10, 11, or 15 will prove such. But I know from passages such as Acts 14:3, 8:6, 2:22, Hebrews 2:4, and Mark 16:20 that miracles were used to reveal and confirm God’s word. And this is exactly what God was doing for the Jews – to both reveal to the Jews and confirm to the Jews His "word" that the GENTILES were to be recipients of God’s salvation.

SCHROEDER -which i believe is saying he showing that THEY are saved.

Nope – this “sign” was to prove to the Jews attending with Peter that the Gentiles had also been “granted life unto repentance”. It was Peter, not Cornelius that said… “I perceive…” – see Acts 10:34.

The “witness” was for the Jews on behalf of the Gentiles! The verse says “…bare them witness…”, but not TO THEM. You had to ADD this to make the verse say what you want it to. Please don’t ADD words to God’s!!!

You are also choosing to willfully ignore the entire context of Acts chapter 10 and Acts chapter 11 through verse 18 and the efforts/miracles God extended therein to convince the JEWS to go to the Gentiles!

SCHROEDER - So he gave them the spirit to show they were true believers.

Believers in what? Cornelius and family received the HS just as Peter began to speak - Acts 11:15 – the first part of Peter’s speech. Cornelius and family could not possibly have been “true believers”… yet! Please pay attention to the events as they happen here.
--- --- --- ---
Apollos said - God already used a miracle (the vision) 3 times in Acts 10:9-16 in an attempt to confirm to Peter His truth that the Gentiles also were to receive salvation. (Please compare to Heb. 2:3-4, Acts 14:3, & Acts 2:22.)

Schroeder replied – these dont help your arguement at all.

If you do not see how these passages help my position it is because you do not understand them. These passages illustrate that the miraculous was used to reveal and confirm God’s word. You will not be able to show any other purpose from any other verse.

Of course, you have shown nothing. You can not show that HS baptism gives faith, OR grants salvation, OR that HS baptism is even given today… can you??? You have grumbled a lot, and provided little!

SCHROEDER - Of course it [Acts 10:47-48] doesnt say they were to do it for the remission of sins. acts 2:38 doesnt either. It doesnt work to read certain passages literaly and others not. context is sort of important. To interpret acts 2:38 like this is ignoring the rest of scripture

Lol ! Not only are you are not reading these things, you are not paying attention. Let me spell it out for you…

BAPTISM “in the name of Jesus Christ” is…

Acts 10:47-48 – IN WATER.
Acts 2:38 – FOR the remission of sins.
Acts 8:15-16 – Did not include the “giving” of the HS.
Matthew 28:19, Acts 10:48 – COMMANDED !!!

Schroeder – [HS baptism] was to give [Cornelius] a new birth.

This is what you say – but you can not prove it. I bet you won’t even attempt to.
But in John 3:5 Jesus said it took TWO things to accomplish the new birth – WATER and the SPIRIT.


SCHROEDER - again you forgot he or they already knew of Christ. verses 38-39 tells us this. It [Acts 11:15] only means that while he was speaking they began to understand and believe that Christ was there saviour.

YOU really weren’t paying attention on this point, were you?!

Cornelius and house received the HS BEFORE this happened – it was “as Peter began to speak”.

Therefore Cornelius received the HS BEFORE he had opportunity to (as you put it) “understand and believe that Christ was there saviour”.

Therefore it was BEFORE THEY HAD FAITH and BEFORE THEY WERE SAVED !!!

Oh my! Now what will you do? How much “back tracking” can we expect from you on this???

 

[Ormly]

Odd question, for that is what took place - Peter preached WORDS to Cornelius, and the result was that Cornelius was (water) BAPTIZED.

The "conclusion" to the matter was that he was water baptised. That changes the picture, doesn't it?

This is what you say – but you can not prove it. I bet you won’t even attempt to.
But in John 3:5 Jesus said it took TWO things to accomplish the new birth – WATER and the SPIRIT.

How come then Corneilus was baptised before being born again [in your estimation]? That is what happened.

Forgive me Schroeder if I stole any of your thunder. I wa sgetting impatient. . .

 

[Schroeder]

Schroeder –

I have not visited this thread in over a month. I am glad I caught your note…

Schroeder asked - Why did he [Peter in Acts 10] not say hear the word and believe and be water baptized.

Odd question, for that is what took place - Peter preached WORDS to Cornelius, and the result was that Cornelius was (water) BAPTIZED.

Its not THAT he was it was WHY he was. Why in verse 43 is it NOT mentioned as part of being forgiven.

SCHROEDER - As you say faith comes by hearing the word in rom 10:8-117 it speaks of this. funny it doesnt speak of water baptism.
Romans 10:17 speaks about how FAITH comes from the Word, and other passages speak about water BAPTISM or repentance, etc. “Funny” you haven’t noticed that and that the truth on any single subject is not contained in just one verse.

I read that JESUS says BELIEVE in me for eternal life. TELL me that this is NOT a complete truth from CHRIST. it seems this would mean according to you that Christ lied. strong words. Or at least only gave half of the truth.

SCHROEDER - Notice in acts 10:37-38 that it says YOU KNOW OF Jesus ..... I notice you put in verses 22,33,44, 11:14. you also didnt but in the next verse in acts 11:16 "and i remembered the word of the lord, how he used to say John baptized with water BUT you will be baptized with the holy Spirit." i find it odd he would say this if it was JUST to make a point to the jews on this piticuliar moment.

Your inferences that I am deliberately leaving out certain words and phrases to make my points, will not produce enough “smoke” to have effect here. I have made my case thoroughly! Acts 10:22,33,44, and 11:14 are included to show specifically that Cornelius was to be saved through the WORDSthat would be preached to him by Peter – faith and salvation would not be possible PRIOR to hearing these words from Peter and was not accomplished by some operation of the HS. To say that the HS directly effected salvation in Acts 10 must be read into the passage. Acts 10:37-38 was not included by me in my previous post because it does not address either a point of faith or salvation. If Cornelius had heard of Jesus, something was still lacking and this is why Peter was required to visit him – cf. Acts 10:20, 11:14.
In Acts 11:16 Peter mentions his remembrance of the promise to the apostles and how the apostles were going to receive HS baptism. What is your point, if you have one?

Though you say above not all scripture as the whole message of salvation SO you DO have to READ INTO passages. Yes there was something lacking he was nnot born again through the SPirit. he still was in his sinfull nature. Besides needing tho make a point to the jews and possibly Peter.

SCHROEDER - You didnt put in the words [Acts 15:8] and GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART, testified TO THEM giving them the Spirit.

Have you figured out yet WHAT God “bare witness” about – and to WHOM God gave that witness??? Once you do this, then you will know WHY God did what He did in Acts 10.
Peter explains that the giving of the HS (a miracle) to the Gentiles was God’s witness TO THE JEWS – but WITNESS of what? THAT THE GENTILES ALSO HAD BEEN GRANTED REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE.

Was it “witness” that the Gentiles received faith? – NO!
Was it “witness” that the Gentiles had already received salvation? – NO!
And nothing from Acts 10, 11, or 15 will prove such. But I know from passages such as Acts 14:3, 8:6, 2:22, Hebrews 2:4, and Mark 16:20 that miracles were used to reveal and confirm God’s word. And this is exactly what God was doing for the Jews – to both reveal to the Jews and confirm to the Jews His "word" that the GENTILES were to be recipients of God’s salvation.

It was a truth to the jews that the gentiles did not need to go through becoming a jew FIRST to be saved. So if receiving the Spirit was not showing they had faith or salvation or forgiveness of there sins. then acts 15:8 saying he accepted them means God excepted them in there sinful nature, It also means everyone would have to have salvation this way. which is ironic becasue God does accept us in our sins and gives us the SPirit to make us clean and born again. thats why its called GRACE. becasue we are saved in our sinfull nature. We dont have to become clean first as the jews would be thinnking, which is why they need to become jews FIRST.

SCHROEDER -which i believe is saying he showing that THEY are saved.

Nope – this “sign” was to prove to the Jews attending with Peter that the Gentiles had also been “granted life unto repentance”. It was Peter, not Cornelius that said… “I perceive…” – see Acts 10:34.

The “witness” was for the Jews on behalf of the Gentiles! The verse says “…bare them witness…”, but not TO THEM. You had to ADD this to make the verse say what you want it to. Please don’t ADD words to God’s!!!

You are also choosing to willfully ignore the entire context of Acts chapter 10 and Acts chapter 11 through verse 18 and the efforts/miracles God extended therein to convince the JEWS to go to the Gentiles!

I wrote what my bible had. No i am remembering ALL of scripture and not making a prior assumption about what baptism is to be always meant as, you thinking it always is about water baptism. I will get into the rest tomorrow.

 

[Ormly]

I wrote what my bible had. No i am remembering ALL of scripture and not making a prior assumption about what baptism is to be always meant as, you thinking it always is about water baptism. I will get into the rest tomorrow.

Isn't it interesting that the Lord, in the great commission, never said go into all the world and get people saved? Funny how that little bit is overlooked when discussing Corneilus..

 

[Simon_Templar]

Acts 10: Why did Cornelius and household receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized with water?

The HS was given to Cornelius (& family) to CONFIRM God’s word that the Gentiles were to receive salvation - not to save them!
Now I will prove just this…

The affirmation of this is found in Acts 15:7-9…

Verse 7 - …that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word and believe.
(FAITH comes by hearing the WORD !! The reason Cornelius sent for Peter – to HEAR words. Cf. Acts 10:22,33,44, 11:14.)

Verse 8 – And God – bare them WITNESS, giving them the HS…
By giving the Gentiles the HS (a miracle), God gave His witness to Peter and those Jews with him that the words Cornelius said in Acts 10:30-33 were true ! This is God’s confirmation of His word!

God already used a miracle (the vision) 3 times in Acts 10:9-16 in an attempt to confirm to Peter His truth that the Gentiles also were to receive salvation. (Please compare to Heb. 2:3-4, Acts 14:3, & Acts 2:22.)

Verse 9 – There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. God has cleansed their (Gentile) hearts by faith – the same faith that cleansed the Jews.

It was this faith that caused Cornelius & household to be obedient to the COMMAND of Peter as read in Acts 10:47-48 – BAPTISM in the name (by the authority) of Jesus Christ – which is in water, and for the remission of sins – Acts 2:38.

Cornelius’ receiving of the HS was not to save him – it was to confirm God’s word, just as other miracles did in NT times.

Additional:

Acts 11:15 we learn from Peter that the HS fell on Cornelius “as I began to speak” – this was at the beginning of Peter’s words to Cornelius. Was Cornelius saved BEFORE he had faith, because faith comes from hearing the word! So if he was saved when Cornelius received the HS, he was saved BEFORE hearing God’s word, BEFORE he had faith, and BEFORE water baptism. Who can believe such?

The reason Cornelius and his family received the Spirit before water baptism was specifically to show the apostles that they could not with-hold water baptism from gentiles.

Up to that time they had refused to baptize Gentiles and allow them into the Church. God had to supernaturally show them that they had to admit gentiles. He did this by admitting Cornelius with the unmistakable sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ormly]

The reason Cornelius and his family received the Spirit before water baptism was specifically to show the apostles that they could not with-hold water baptism from gentiles.

Up to that time they had refused to baptize Gentiles and allow them into the Church. God had to supernaturally show them that they had to admit gentiles. He did this by admitting Cornelius with the unmistakable sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Which intimates that Corneilus and his company of believers were saved and born again before Peter ever got there to say anything about "how to get saved".

 

[Simon_Templar]

Which intimates that Corneilus and his company of believers were saved and born again before Peter ever got there to say anything about "how to get saved".

or they became saved and born again as he was speaking. Its largely useless to speculate when the internal work was done in them, because there is no way to know and scripture doesn't say.