The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

[Rick Otto]

Originally Posted by chestertonrules

When an individual becomes a new creation through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, does their appearance change?
​

I believe from God's perspective at least, it does.

 

[Rick Otto]

But was Judas a Christian?

Is there any evidence? Is all who are of Israel, Israel?

 

[chestertonrules]

I believe from God's perspective at least, it does.

The same can be said for the Eucharist.

 

[chestertonrules]

I think it is pretty much what you just said, - rules.
But the transcendant truths behind the rules are principles. And rules can be violated to stay true to principles.
That is why being religious is no guarantee of posessing any spirituality.
Religion is a form of what is beyond form - spirit. That's why it can never be perfect & will pass away when Truth comes back to reign supreme.

We are straying into semantics here, I think.

For example, is "love your neighbor as yourself" a rule or a principal?

 

[chestertonrules]

No one who is born-again claims to be Jesus Christ though. We're not Arians you know.

Another irrelevant post. Please keep your Catholic bashing relevant to the topic.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Another irrelevant post. Please keep your Catholic bashing relevant to the topic.

If you think that is what a poster is doing, just report them!

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules;We are straying into semantics here, I think.

Exactly,... & that goes back to where I'm coming from - the intrinsic ambiguity in human systems: language, insitutions, etc.

For example, is "love your neighbor as yourself" a rule or a principal?

Not so grey,... love is the principle ideal. Your neighbor & yourself are the objects of application,... expression, of that principle.
It's an organizing principle as opposed to one that results in disintegration, dissipation, death, basicaly.

 

[Standing Up]

Another irrelevant post. Please keep your Catholic bashing relevant to the topic.

Hang on, I'm not the one who says the bread is bread and then the bread changes into Jesus Christ, so that there was a time when He was not. That's Arian.

Kind of speculating here because I haven't really researched this angle, but what's interesting also is we know from scripture, the didache, and others out to 175ad that in the church it was viewed purely as thanksgiving. Somewhere after that, the view of eucharist changed to the change from bread to flesh, and about that time the church had a major problem with Arianism. Most of the church was Arian at one time, if I'm not mistaken. It seems that the views arose about the same time. But it makes sense. There was a time when Christ was not. Yep, just like what is said about bread.

 

[chestertonrules]

Hang on, I'm not the one who says the bread is bread and then the bread changes into Jesus Christ, so that there was a time when He was not. That's Arian.

Kind of speculating here because I haven't really researched this angle, but what's interesting also is we know from scripture, the didache, and others out to 175ad that in the church it was viewed purely as thanksgiving. Somewhere after that, the view of eucharist changed to the change from bread to flesh, and about that time the church had a major problem with Arianism. Most of the church was Arian at one time, if I'm not mistaken. It seems that the views arose about the same time. But it makes sense. There was a time when Christ was not. Yep, just like what is said about bread.

Your view is consistent with the gnostics.

You can read all you want about Arians and their dogmatic battles with the Church. In fact, I recommend that you do. There is a reason Arianism was considered a heresy.

 

[chestertonrules]

Exactly,... & that goes back to where I'm coming from - the intrinsic ambiguity in human systems: language, insitutions, etc.

Not so grey,... love is the principle ideal. Your neighbor & yourself are the objects of application,... expression, of that principle.
It's an organizing principle as opposed to one that results in disintegration, dissipation, death, basicaly.

OK. So, is the principal that we should love our neighbor supported by
Church rules?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Your view is consistent with the gnostics.

You can read all you want about Arians and their dogmatic battles with the Church. In fact, I recommend that you do. There is a reason Arianism was considered a heresy.

So you are saying Roman Catholicism is completely free and clear of any type of gnosticism?

 

[Standing Up]

Your view is consistent with the gnostics.

Huh?

 

[chestertonrules]

Huh?

Like the gnostics, you deny the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

You also believe in salvation by faith alone, which is consistent with gnosticism.

 

[Rick Otto]

I think redefining reality is the denial.
How many varieties of gnosticism are on your menu?

 

[Rick Otto]

OK. So, is the principal that we should love our neighbor supported by
Church rules?

Yes & no. It depends on how we define love, and that could still leave us with an answer no more definite than "more or less", & besides, in consistency with my lack of confidence in both these systems & your definitions, if my conscience directs me too, I'll reject a church teaching without hesitation.

 

[Sargent_Pepper]

The same can be said for the Eucharist.

The early Christians strongly denied that they were eating and drinking the actual, real, human flesh and blood of Jesus.

The RC doctrine of transustantiation is monophysite by mixing and confusing the two distinct natures of Jesus, giving His human nature divine attributes, thus monophysite.

 

[addo]

When an individual becomes a new creation through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, does their appearance change?

This new creation is spiritual. Their mind changes. The bread is just physical. It doesn't have a spirit.

You'll see a change when the body, just like the spirit, will become something new. Then you'll see that the body changes in appearance.

You don't become a new creation bodily or physically, but spiritually, in the mind. The mind doesn't have a form or appearance, so what change are you expecting to see? But when the body changes in the manner of the spirit then, since the body can be seen (the spirit cannot) then you'll see the changes in appearance. What changes we see we see in the fruits.

The spirit, which is the one recreated at the moment and not the body, is like the wind. You cannot see it but you see it's actions and consequences. If the wind would change, would you see the change? No. You would feel the change or at least see what it does to realize it changes. So is with the spirit. It is recreated, but it cannot be seen, so what changes are you expecting to see? Certainly not of appearance since obviously it cannot be seen. You'll see changes in it's fruits.

But the body can be seen and when it will become new then you'll see a big change in its appearance. I hope I explained it well. Because we don't become new creations physically, but spiritually. Our spirits cannot be seen. Bread doesn't have a spirit. So it cannot be changed spiritually.

 

[Sargent_Pepper]

The same can be said for the Eucharist.

The early Christians strongly denied that they were eating and drinking the actual, real, human flesh and blood of Jesus.

The RC doctrine of transubstantiation is monophysite by mixing and confusing the two distinct natures of Jesus, giving His human nature divine attributes, thus monophysite.

 

[Sargent_Pepper]

Like the gnostics, you deny the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Wrong. We deny the monophysite doctrine of transubstantiation.

 

[chestertonrules]

I think redefining reality is the denial.
How many varieties of gnosticism are on your menu?

There are many camps but two main ideas which are opposite extremes.

However, all gnostics believe that it is our knowledge that saves and that our physical existence is irrelevant to salvation.

One extreme believes this to such an extent that the become hedonistic, while the other extreme believes that the body is so evil that they become ascetics.