The real presence, how does it work.

[Xeno.of.athens]

In the Lord's Supper, many believe that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ through a process that is fundamentally mysterious. This belief is known as the "Real Presence" doctrine and holds that the the bread and wine is becomes the body and blood of Christ, while the appearance of the bread and wine remains unchanged. The Real Presence is seen as a miraculous event and a way to participate in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It is a central part of the sacrament and is considered a source of grace and strength for the believer.

Other Christian denominations may have a different understanding of the Lord's Supper, viewing it as a symbolic commemoration of Jesus' death rather than as a sacrament with real spiritual effects. This understanding emphasizes the memorial aspect of the meal, with the bread and wine serving as reminders of the sacrifice of Jesus and the hope of salvation. This interpretation may emphasize the communal aspect of the meal, as a way to bond with fellow believers and remember the sacrifice of Jesus together.

Where do you stand?

 

[sandman]

In the other category....

 

[HTacianas]

In the Lord's Supper, many believe that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ through a process that is fundamentally mysterious. This belief is known as the "Real Presence" doctrine and holds that the the bread and wine is becomes the body and blood of Christ, while the appearance of the bread and wine remains unchanged. The Real Presence is seen as a miraculous event and a way to participate in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It is a central part of the sacrament and is considered a source of grace and strength for the believer.

Other Christian denominations may have a different understanding of the Lord's Supper, viewing it as a symbolic commemoration of Jesus' death rather than as a sacrament with real spiritual effects. This understanding emphasizes the memorial aspect of the meal, with the bread and wine serving as reminders of the sacrifice of Jesus and the hope of salvation. This interpretation may emphasize the communal aspect of the meal, as a way to bond with fellow believers and remember the sacrifice of Jesus together.

Where do you stand?

The answer to the question "how does it work" is, "no one knows". Just as no one knows exactly how a person's sins are forgiven through baptism. If you examined a person down to the minutest detail, then baptized them and examined them again, it is extremely doubtful that you would find any physical change in them, but they are in fact different from what they were before. If you examined the bread and the wine before and after it is blessed, it is doubtful that you could identify any difference in it, but it is in fact different. It has changed from bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. A simple piece of cloth when folded and placed on a table is no longer a piece of cloth, it is a napkin. There is no identifiable change in the cloth, but it has in fact changed.

 

[Philip_B]

We do not presume to come to your table, merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in your manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under your table. But you are the same Lord, whose nature is always to have mercy. Grant us, therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of your dear Son, Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that we may evermore dwell in him, And he in us. Amen.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

In what sense is the Eucharist the body of Christ? In what sense is the species that was formerly "bread" no longer bread? In what sense are you using the term "real" if in all natural sense it remains bread?

"Aristotle acknowledges that there are three candidates for being called substance, and that all three are substance in some sense or to some degree. First, there is matter, second, form and third, the composite of form and matter. " Substance (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I guess the Platonic form has changed. But what is that really? The essence? So then what is the substance or essence of bread if not all the qualities that make bread bread?

I think the most important change is what it signifies....what it means to those who believe and accept. Substance in that sense is not material like atoms and molecules but ideal like the substance of an idea or argument or belief.

 

[bling]

There are several issues with making the communion bread and wine into the literal flesh and blood of Christ:

• Reading Mt. 26:29 and 1 Cor. 11:23-28, after the bread and wine are blessed they are still being called fruit of the vine, wine and bread and not the flesh and blood of Christ.
• The taking of John 6 to be literal is the problem the people at the time were having, while we know Jesus refers to himself as a vine, door, gate and so on not to be taken literally.
• The bread represents the body of Christ and not just a piece of flesh of Christ. Body and flesh are two different words and have different meanings.
• Jesus took a piece of bread in his hand representing His body and he did not hold his flesh in his hand.
• The communion was to be in remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice and is not talked about as being participation in Christ’s sacrifice.
• If the bread and the wine become literally Christ then we could and should worship the bread and wine, but that is not what the early church was doing nor is it what we should do.
• We are to empathetically experience being crucified with Christ (by remembering what he did), while eating Christ’s flesh and drinking Christ blood would not be being crucified with Christ.
• The communion is a huge blessing to me. I know through words that Christ’s blood cleanses me which is similar to the blood of sacrificial animals being used to cleanse the outside the holy objects in the temple, but God/Christ has provide me with more than just words since I can drink the wine feel it going down my throat and over my heart cleansing my heart an inward cleansing. I need that blood outside of Jesus’ body to cleanse my inter being.

 

[Clare73]

In the Lord's Supper, many believe that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ through a process that is fundamentally mysterious. This belief is known as the "Real Presence" doctrine and holds that the the bread and wine is becomes the body and blood of Christ, while the appearance of the bread and wine remains unchanged. The Real Presence is seen as a miraculous event and a way to participate in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It is a central part of the sacrament and is considered a source of grace and strength for the believer.

The problem with that is that by "participating" in Christ's sacrifice in any way, you are earning merit for your forgiveness, thereby sharing in and diminishing Christ's role in your redemption. . .contra-NT. We receive only, through faith alone, we do not participate in its merit in any way...

And making that participation in Jesus' sacrifice a central part of the sacrament increases the emphasis of this contra-NT merit you are assigning to the participants.

Other Christian denominations may have a different understanding of the Lord's Supper, viewing it as a symbolic commemoration of Jesus' death rather than as a sacrament with real spiritual effects. This understanding emphasizes the memorial aspect of the meal, with the bread and wine serving as reminders of the sacrifice of Jesus and the hope of salvation. This interpretation may emphasize the communal aspect of the meal, as a way to bond with fellow believers and remember the sacrifice of Jesus together.

Where do you stand?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The problem with that is that by "participating" in Christ's sacrifice in any way, you are earning merit for your forgiveness, thereby sharing in and diminishing Christ's role in your redemption. . .contra-NT. We receive only, through faith alone, we do not participate in its merit in any way...

This claim is incorrect.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

@Clare73

Here are several biblical passages that relate to the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist and the intercession of the saints:

1 Corinthians 10:16-17: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread."​

​

John 6:54-56: "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."​

​

Revelation 5:8: "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."​

​

1 Timothy 2:1-4: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."​

These passages, along with other biblical texts and Church teachings, form the basis for the Catholic belief in the intercession of the saints and the power of the Eucharist to bring spiritual merit and salvation to the participants.

 

[Clare73]

@Clare73

Here are several biblical passages that relate to the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist and the intercession of the saints:

Did I inquire about the intercession of the saints? . . .You must have me confused with someone else.

1 Corinthians 10:16-17: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread."​

​

John 6:54-56: "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."​

​

Revelation 5:8: "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."​

​

1 Timothy 2:1-4: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."​

These passages, along with other biblical texts and Church teachings, form the basis for the Catholic belief in the intercession of the saints and the power of the Eucharist to bring spiritual merit and salvation to the participants.

 

[Clare73]

This claim is incorrect.

To "participate" in a performance is to perform with the other(s).
To participate in Jesus sacrifice is to perform with him.

What is incorrect is not the claim that our participation means our merit, it is the theology which asserts such, that is incorrect.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Did I inquire about the intercession of the saints? . . .You must have me confused with someone else.

No, I am not confused.

In Catholicism, the belief is that participating in the Eucharist (Holy Communion) confers spiritual merit to the individual, which can then be offered for the salvation of souls, including through the intercession of the saints. The concept of merit in Catholicism refers to the spiritual benefit and grace that one can gain through good works, prayer, and other acts of devotion.

The intercession of the saints refers to the belief that the saints in heaven, who are in close union with God, can pray for us and help us obtain the grace and mercy of God. In this context, the spiritual merit received through participating in the Eucharist can be offered as a form of intercession for the salvation of souls, including the deceased. The idea is that the living and the dead are united in Christ through the Communion of Saints and that the saints in heaven can support the faithful on earth in their spiritual journey.

Therefore, the merit received through participating in the Eucharist can be seen as a means of strengthening one's connection with the saints in heaven and supporting the intercession for the salvation of souls. This is an expression of the Catholic belief in the Communion of Saints and the power of prayer and intercession to bring spiritual benefit to both the living and the dead.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

To "participate" in a performance is to perform with the other(s).
To participate in Jesus sacrifice is to perform with him.

What is incorrect is not the claim that our participation means our merit, it is the theology which asserts such that is incorrect.

In the scriptures to participate has a slightly meaning.

A Christian can participate in the redeeming work of Christ through faith in him, receiving the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, and by following his life of love and service to others.

Scripture references:

• John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
• Romans 5:8 - "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
• 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 - "For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

@Clare73 - St. Paul's statement about adding his sufferings to what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ (Colossians 1:24) is connected to the idea in the previous answer in that it speaks to the concept of participating in the redeeming work of Christ through following his life of love and service to others. By suffering and sacrificing for the sake of others, Christians can join in and add to the redemptive work of Christ. Through their actions and offerings, they can help make up for what is lacking in Christ's sufferings and bring about God's will for the world. In this way, Christians can participate in the redemption of the world through their union with Christ.

 

[Clare73]

No, I am not confused.

In Catholicism, the belief is that participating in the Eucharist (Holy Communion) confers spiritual merit to the individual, which can then be offered for the salvation of souls, including through the intercession of the saints.

So by "participate" you mean "to share in the benefits of". . .rather than "to perform with"?

Okay, I think I'm on the same page now.

The concept of merit in Catholicism refers to the spiritual benefit and grace that one can gain through good works, prayer, and other acts of devotion.

The intercession of the saints refers to the belief that the saints in heaven, who are in close union with God, can pray for us and help us obtain the grace and mercy of God. In this context, the spiritual merit received through participating in the Eucharist can be offered as a form of intercession for the salvation of souls, including the deceased. The idea is that the living and the dead are united in Christ through the Communion of Saints and that the saints in heaven can support the faithful on earth in their spiritual journey.

Therefore, the merit received through participating in the Eucharist can be seen as a means of strengthening one's connection with the saints in heaven and supporting the intercession for the salvation of souls. This is an expression of the Catholic belief in the Communion of Saints and the power of prayer and intercession to bring spiritual benefit to both the living and the dead.

 

[Philip_B]

My view is that there is one table, set in this world and the next, and the eschatological dimension of the Eucharist is that this is one of the places where eternity breaks through into our living reality.

It is in the Eucharist that all that has been created finds its greatest exaltation. Grace, which tends to manifest itself tangibly, found unsurpassable expression when God himself became man and gave himself as food for his creatures. The Lord, in the culmination of the mystery of the Incarnation, chose to reach our intimate depths through a fragment of matter. He comes not from above, but from within, he comes that we might find him in this world of ours. In the Eucharist, fullness is already achieved; it is the living centre of the universe, the overflowing core of love and of inexhaustible life. Joined to the incarnate Son, present in the Eucharist, the whole cosmos gives thanks to God. Indeed the Eucharist is itself an act of cosmic love: “Yes, cosmic! Because even when it is celebrated on the humble altar of a country church, the Eucharist is always in some way celebrated on the al165 Ibid. 172 tar of the world”.166 The Eucharist joins heaven and earth; it embraces and penetrates all creation. The world which came forth from God’s hands returns to him in blessed and undivided adoration: in the bread of the Eucharist, “creation is projected towards divinization, towards the holy wedding feast, towards unification with the Creator himself ”.167 Thus, the Eucharist is also a source of light and motivation for our concerns for the environment, directing us to be stewards of all creation.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

Firstly I have to say I can not subscribe to a physical contraction which you have clearly defined here.

Historically I find this to be the best representation of my understanding on the issue:

Gelasius, Bishop of Rome (492-496): Surely the sacrament we take of the Lord’s body and blood is a divine thing, on account of which, and by the same we are made partakers of the divine nature; and yet the substance of the bread and wine does not cease to be. And certainly the image and similitude of Christ’s body and blood are celebrated in the action of the mysteries.

Also Augustine reminds us we do no longer have (we are deprived) Christ's physical body with us in his work on the Gospel of John.


TRACTATE 92 (JOHN 15:26-27)

1. The Lord Jesus, in the discourse which He addressed to His disciples after the supper, when Himself in immediate proximity to His passion, and, as it were, on the eve of departure, and of depriving them of His bodily presence while continuing His spiritual presence to all His disciples till the very end of the world, exhorted them to endure the persecutions of the wicked, whom He distinguished by the name of the world: and from which He also told them that He had chosen, the disciples themselves, that they might know it was by the grace of God they were what they were, and by their own vices they had been what they had been. And then His own persecutors and theirs He clearly signified to be the Jews, that it might be perfectly apparent that they also were included in the appellation of that damnable world that persecuteth the saints. And when He had said of them that they knew not Him that sent Him, and yet hated both the Son and the Father, that is, both Him who was sent and Him who sent Him,--of all which we have already treated in previous discourses,--He reached the place where it is said, "This cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause." And then He added, as if by way of consequence, the words whereon we have undertaken at present to discourse: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, He shall bear witness of me: and ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."



"It may be also understood in this way: 'The poor ye will have always with you, but me ye will not have always.' The good may take it also as addressed to themselves, but not so as to be any source of anxiety; for He was speaking of His bodily presence. For in respect of His majesty, His providence, His ineffable and invisible grace, His own words are fulfilled, 'Lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world.' But in respect of the flesh He assumed as the Word, in respect of that which He was as the son of the Virgin, of that wherein He was seized by the Jews, nailed to the tree, let down from the cross, enveloped in a shroud, laid in the sepulchre, and manifested in His resurrection, 'ye will not have Him always.' And why? Because in respect of His bodily presence He associated for forty days with His disciples, and then, having brought them forth for the purpose of beholding and not of following Him, He ascended into heaven and is no longer here. He is there, indeed, sitting at the right hand of the Father; and He is here also, having never withdrawn the presence of His glory. In other words, in respect of His divine presence we always have Christ; in respect of His presence in the flesh it was rightly said to the disciples, 'Me ye will not have always.' In this respect the Church enjoyed His presence only for a few days: now it possesses Him by faith, without seeing Him with the eyes." (Lectures on the Gospel of John, 50:13)

In Him,

Bill

 

[FireDragon76]

In what sense is the Eucharist the body of Christ? In what sense is the species that was formerly "bread" no longer bread? In what sense are you using the term "real" if in all natural sense it remains bread?

"Aristotle acknowledges that there are three candidates for being called substance, and that all three are substance in some sense or to some degree. First, there is matter, second, form and third, the composite of form and matter. " Substance (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I guess the Platonic form has changed. But what is that really? The essence? So then what is the substance or essence of bread if not all the qualities that make bread bread?

I think the most important change is what it signifies....what it means to those who believe and accept. Substance in that sense is not material like atoms and molecules but ideal like the substance of an idea or argument or belief.

Transignification? I have thought of it that way, myself.

I'm not a fan of alot of the traditional Lutheran scholastic theology about the sacrament. The bread and wine participate in Christ's body and blood, so that people who receive the sacrament receive Christ's body and blood. So much simpler...

There's something about the sacrament that is beyond our rational intellect, of course. It is regrettable that so much ink has been spilled over trying to circumscribe what is ultimately a mystery.

No love that in a family dwells,
No carolling in frosty air,
Nor all the steeple-shaking bells
Can with this single Truth compare -
That God was man in Palestine
And lives today in Bread and Wine.
- John Betjeman

It's a pity that so few churches now days have the traditional altar rail anymore. It's just a line, often times, there's little time to pause in quiet reflection.

 

[ViaCrucis]

In the Lutheran tradition we emphasize, very strongly, that we don't know how "it works". Regarding the Mystery of the Holy Supper as something to be accepted entirely by faith, not by human reason. Jesus said "This is" and thus we say, "The word of the Lord. Amen."

If one surfs enough internet, one will likely come across the claim that Lutherans believe in something called "Consubstantiation" as opposed to "Transubstantiation". But this claim is actually untrue. The closest Lutheranism gets to "describing" the Eucharist is what is called "The Sacramental Union", which is actually just an analogy. It is an analogy by way of Christ's Hypostatic Union, that even as Christ is one undivided Person and Hypostasis, and yet both fully and truly God and fully and truly human; we confess that the Holy Eucharist is, indeed, really bread and wine, and indeed really the body and blood of Christ. We cannot try and separate these, we cannot separate the bread of the Supper from the flesh of Christ, for here they are united and inseparate.

So our underlying confessional language is we that we declare and believe that here "in, with, and under" the bread and wine is the true body and true blood of Jesus Christ. "In, with, and under" is simply our way to speak of the full truth that when we receive and partake of the Supper, there is truly, really, and indisputably Jesus Christ living and Incarnate, Here is He who suffered for our sins, who rose again, who ascended and sits at the right hand of the Father, it is His true flesh, His real blood. The flesh pierced for our transgressions, the blood shed for our sins, right here, truly given to us.

How can this be? How does that work? We don't know, but we confess Christ's infallible and inerrant word: "This is My body" and "This is My blood of the new covenant". He has spoken, and we believe it. He is Lord, and so we confess it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In the Lutheran tradition we emphasize, very strongly, that we don't know how "it works". Regarding the Mystery of the Holy Supper as something to be accepted entirely by faith, not by human reason. Jesus said "This is" and thus we say, "The word of the Lord. Amen."

If one surfs enough internet, one will likely come across the claim that Lutherans believe in something called "Consubstantiation" as opposed to "Transubstantiation". But this claim is actually untrue. The closest Lutheranism gets to "describing" the Eucharist is what is called "The Sacramental Union", which is actually just an analogy. It is an analogy by way of Christ's Hypostatic Union, that even as Christ is one undivided Person and Hypostasis, and yet both fully and truly God and fully and truly human; we confess that the Holy Eucharist is, indeed, really bread and wine, and indeed really the body and blood of Christ. We cannot try and separate these, we cannot separate the bread of the Supper from the flesh of Christ, for here they are united and inseparate.

So our underlying confessional language is we that we declare and believe that here "in, with, and under" the bread and wine is the true body and true blood of Jesus Christ. "In, with, and under" is simply our way to speak of the full truth that when we receive and partake of the Supper, there is truly, really, and indisputably Jesus Christ living and Incarnate, Here is He who suffered for our sins, who rose again, who ascended and sits at the right hand of the Father, it is His true flesh, His real blood. The flesh pierced for our transgressions, the blood shed for our sins, right here, truly given to us.

How can this be? How does that work? We don't know, but we confess Christ's infallible and inerrant word: "This is My body" and "This is My blood of the new covenant". He has spoken, and we believe it. He is Lord, and so we confess it.

-CryptoLutheran

Transubstantiation is an "apt description" according to Catholic teaching, it uses Aristotelian ideas about substance and accidents (essence and properties would be modern terms that people are more likely to understand).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say on the matter:

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."204​

It isn't exactly an explanation of the mystery. It's more of case of creating vocabulary for referring to the consecrated host and wine as in some way changed so as to be/become the body and blood of Christ.