If you wouldn't mind reading all this, here is the debate I already had with someone on this subject earlier. I think it will explain the Reformed view pretty clearly. It might be good to note that in his day, Calvin was accused of both denying the true presence (by the Lutherans) and of holding the "old Roman" view (by the Anabaptists). I must warn that the Reformed view is a bit confusing.
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The veiw held by us Calvinists is a bit of a confusing one, but basically we believe the elements (bread and wine) remain what they are. However, Christ's presence is fully there
spiritually. If we take part in faith we do receive every grace and beneifit. If we take unworthily we drink down condemnation.
Here is some quotes from Calvin's
A Short Treatise on the LORD's Supper:
"...Now, if it be asked nevertheless whether the bread is the body of Christ, and the wine His blood, we should reply that the bread and the wine are the visible signs, which represent to us the body and the blood; but that the name and title of body and blood is attributed to them, because they are as instruments by which our LORD Jesus Christ distributes them to us ....
It is a spiritual mystery, which cannot be seen by the eye, nor comprehended by the human understanding. It is therefore symbolized by visible signs, as our infirmity requires, but in such a way that it is not a bare figure, but joined to its reality and substance. It is therefore with good reason that the bread is called body, since not only does it represent it to us, but also presents it to us....
Thus, as a brief definition of this benefit of the supper, we may say that Jesus Christ is there offered to us that we may possess Him, and in Him all the fullness of His gifts which we can desire; and that in this we have great assistance in confirming our conscience in faith which we ought to have in Him."
It is taught in Reformed Churches that the Supper is needed for sanctification and that it is the most intimate we can be with Jesus while on earth. It may also be noted that we refer to the elements as the Body and Blood during the Communion and that we use the word
sacrament to describe it.
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racer said:
Here's a quick question:
I have in my hand a photo of myself. I hold it up for you guys to see and say, "This is me."
Now, is the picture of me-me? Or is it a representation of me?
Okay, here's another question:
What if you said that if we looked at the picture we would commune (have fellowship) with you?
1 Corinthians 10 (KJV)
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1 Corinthians 10 (Young's Literal Translation)
16 The cup of the blessing that we bless -- is it not the fellowship of the blood of the Christ? the bread that we break -- is it not the fellowship of the body of the Christ?
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racer said:
Did Christ say that? I don't think so.
Is not all of the Bible the Word of God? If so, then it is also the Word of Christ.
racer said:
In the verses you quote:
Paul is speaking to church members. How about we look past verse 16:
1Cr 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1Cr 10:17 For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Paul is saying that when we partake of "communion" we are communing with each other, fellowshipping with each other.
A couple more interesting notes on this passage. Paul doesn't say that the "cup of blessing" is Christ's blood, but that it is the "communion of the blood of Christ." Nor does He say the bread is Christ's "body." He says it's the "communion" of Christ's body. He then goes on to say that by coming together and communing, we become the "one bread, and one body" because we partake of that one BREAD.
I wasn't saying that the elements were the literal Body and Blood of Christ, but that in Communion we partake (commune) of the Body and Blood. For the faithful, Christ is present in the sacrament with all benefits and graces. For the unworthy Christ is still there and they practically blaspheme Him by not concerning His Body and therefore, drink condemnation to themselves. Which seems to me to be pretty clearly taught in the Scripture.
It is a mystery that can never be fully comprehended, but that is the best way I can explain it.
I kind of agree with you (although probably not suffiently enough) in the fact that we commune also with each other, in that we all are made one in Christ and in His Holy Supper. The Church is, after all, the Body of Christ.
Another question for you:
Why would it be called the communion of the Body and Blood if we weren't communing with the Body and Blood?
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racer said:
Puriteen,
I dont disagree with what youve said aboveat least I think I dont. The words partake and commune are not synonymous. I dont understand why your explanation rules out symbolism.
If we are communing with His Body and Blood we are partaking of it.
racer said:
Im still not sure why your understanding rules out symbolism.
My understanding doesn't rule out symbolism, but it adds to it. The Sacrament of the LORD's Table is not just empty symbols. Christ is there, not in the carnal sense, but in a spiritual one, endowing the faithful with all the benefits of His Person.
racer said:
Well . . . because as Paul explained (and so have you) we (the church) are the Body and Blood of Christ. Soooo . . . when we (the Body and Blood of Christ) gather to remember Him, that would be His Body and Blood communingthus, Communion of the Body and Blood of Christ.
I don't think you see my understanding. We in Communion take of the Body and Blood (the Person of our LORD) and through Communion we are made one in Christ with our brethren. Therefore we are one body, His body, the Church.
The purpose of the Sacrament is to feed us of the Bread of Life, and to pour out for us drink of the Fount that quniches all thirst. Through common celebration of the Sacrament, we (the church) are united as one, in Christ. But the most blessed part of the Supper is not fellowship with each other, but the intimate fellowship with the Person of our Saviour through the eating of His Body and the drinking of His Blood.
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racer said:
And who says that a "symbol" must be empty or insignificant. Look back at the commentary I gave from Guzik:
d. The focus remembering Jesus; the invitation is to a meal of fellowship, which commemorates His death and the creation of a New Covenant
i. Notice that Paul speaks of taking the bread, not the body; it has not been transubstantiated into the flesh of Christ
ii. The elements are best seen as symbols, but not empty symbols--they are the harbingers of the very presence of God
iii. A statue of Hercules is an empty symbol; but the Holy Spirit's coming as a dove is not
By empty I meant that it is just like eatin gany other bread, which it is not. Jesus, our LORD, is there.
racer said:
Christ is everywhere spirtually.
Yes, but His Body and Blood, His sacrifice is somehow present spritually in the Sacrament. The elements do not become the Body and Blood (trans). Nor are the literally present with the elements (cons). But, in some great mystery, the faithful do partake of the Person of Christ, who is spiritually present there.
racer said:
I'm sure I don't.
It's quite okay. The Calvinist view is confusing. It took me a while to understand this much and I still probably don't explainit the best way.
racer said:
Now I'm confused. Above you say it's His spiritual presence. Now, you're saying the person (Body and Blood).
The fullnes of His Person is sprirtually present in the faithful partaking of the elements.
racer said:
On this we tend to agree. We just don't agree on what exactly Christ meant when He said "eat and drink." I think it's a Spiritual enlightenment or nourishment that we gain from believing in Him, which is symbolized by eating and drinking the bread and wine in remembrance of Him.
We gain all of His benefits and graces if we partake as faithful converted children of God.
The Sacraments are are signs and seals of the Covenant. In the Sacraments there are 1. visible objects and actions and 2.inward realities and spiritual benefits.
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racer said:
Do you think God meant for it to be so confusing or difficult?
Do you think that His Holy Religion was meant to be easily understood by us. We are humans, He is God. I would have to say that a good majority of the Christian faith is mysteries and paradoxes.
racer said:
We "gain all of His benefits and graces" by "coming to Him and believing in Him."
No, we do not recieve grace unto salvation by coming to Him. We are not the seeker, God is. His Holy Spirit seeks us out and separates us from the heathen, not because we are better but because of His own mercy and pleasure.
This effectual calling brings conversion, but conversion is only the begining of salvation. Coversion is followed by baptism (atleast for us Bapts), the Supper of our LORD, never-ending daily graces, and so on throughout eternity.
racer said:
So Jesus placed significant importance on "visible object and actions?"
"Teaching to observe all things I have commanded you;..." Matt 28:20a
Let me post some quotes from the Baptist Catechism (1677&1689), I'm sure that Mr. Benjamin Keach could put it better than I have.
Q. 95. What are the outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption?
A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption are His ordinances, especially the Word, Baptism, the Lord's Supper and Prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation.
(Rom. 10:17; James 1:18; I Cor. 3:5; Acts 14:1; 2:41,42)
Q. 98. How do Baptism and the Lord's Supper become effectual means of salvation?
A. Baptism and the Lord's Supper become effectual means of salvation, not from any virtue in them or in him that administers them, but only by the blessing of Christ and the working of His Spirit in them that by faith receive them.
(I Peter 3:21; I Cor. 3:6,7; I Cor. 12:13)
Q. 99. Wherein do Baptism and the Lord's Supper differ from the other ordinances of God?
A. Baptism and the Lord's Supper differ from the other ordinances of God in that they were specially instituted by Christ to represent and apply to believers the benefits of the new covenant by visible and outward signs.
(Matt. 28:19; Acts 22:16; Matt. 26:26-28; Rom. 6:4)
(Which I might add is why we call them sacraments)
Q. 107. What is the Lord's Supper?
A. The Lord's Supper is a holy ordinance, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine, according to Christ's appointment, His death is showed forth, and the worthy receivers are, not after a corporeal and carnal manner, but by faith, made partakers of His body and blood, with all His benefits, to their spiritual nourishment, and growth in grace.
(I Cor. 11:23-26; 10:16)
Q. 108. What is required to the worthy receiving of the
Lord's Supper?
A. It is required of them that would worthily (that is, suitably) partake of the Lord's Supper, that they examine themselves, of their knowledge to discern the Lord's body; of their faith to feed upon Him; of their repentance, love, and new obedience: lest, coming unworthily, they eat and drink judgment to themselves.
(I Cor. 11:27-31; I Cor. 5:8; II Cor. 13:5)
Hope that helps.